Thomaston Planning Board Weighs Self-Storage Rules, Zoning Updates

[0:05] Chair: I never have one. I don't have one in here. [0:12] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: I'd have one in my office. [0:16] Chair: We'll call the meeting to order. There will be one change to the agenda. I did a little research on Wikipedia. I went out in my Google warehouse. house. I googled storage. And Wikipedia had the best story. That's what I did. You guys want a copy? You found them? Yes. Oh, the ones with the pictures. Okay. Well, she was good. Okay. Basically, Tim. How are you? Doing good. You had come before us earlier in the a year, or later in the year, whatever. I was talking about changing your... We approved you to have a warehouse for solar, correct? Tim has. Tim has. Okay, there's a Tim and a Tom. One wants to convert his building to self-storage. You want to have self-storage units, the small ones. Right. And that's what we're not going to allow. But because I thought it might be the other guy, I figured it out in some places. [1:37] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Well, we have had conversations. We talked about how Tom had said at some point he would like to rent a space. And I told him he would absolutely have to come before the planning board if that were something he was interested in doing because there's no self-storage allowed in that district. That's right. Right. Tim is wondering, and so am I, what we need more defined parameters, I think, because if you look at our current ordinance, which we have been updating, it doesn't... [2:13] Chair: It does give a clear definition. [2:16] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: It doesn't really... I mean, when you read through, like, we updated to say no self-storage, but it's just... the line is blurry. [2:28] Planning Board Member: So I've heard about the definitions over here. Both storage facility and self-storage facility. The only thing that I'm reading in between the two is basically how many doors are in this [2:46] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: place. And that's from our ordinance, the ones that you printed? Yes. [2:50] Planning Board Member: It says updated version 6 yes this is obviously storage facility commercial building for city keeping and storage of goods not being used such as both cars since other large items this is not still not self storage facility but then if you look at the self storage facility this is a facility designed for the purpose of renting these things storage space to occupants to have access to storage space and storing and removing the personal property that says some storage space is not a public Warehouse now, me looking at those two definitions right there, I don't care if you're storing a boat or a pair of shoes, personal property is personal property. So I mean the definition, it seems between the two and another definition that I got from Google about storage units in the R2 zone of Thomaston says storage buildings in the R2 zone of Thomaston. So storage bills are generally only allowed within these ordinance definitions of accessory use and compliance with size, location, use standards, Otherwise it will require either special permit or zoning change. And it says that the definition of storage building, according to them, is considered accessory to use of owner's personal space, storing household goods, tools, seasonal stuff. And it says, however, it's usually commercial or industrial storage is not automatically allowed in an R2 zone, but according to what your definition says here, this is a commercial, according to your definition of a storage facility, this is a commercial building for safekeeping of goods not being used, such as those cars. So it seems like just adding more doors to a building is kind of changing. [5:20] Chair: No, it's... He lives in the R2, just for the record. [5:27] Speaker D (unidentified): What is it? He's looking at putting self-storage. [5:32] Chair: He's looking at self-storage like what we've got, like Shepard's self-storage. [5:37] Planning Board Member: I understand what the concept of self-storage, but like you say, storage is self-storage. It's still for the same purpose. It's a store, and yes, that's kind of where I was at in life. Okay. [5:50] Chair: Well, I found it interesting, as in a lot of big cities, and a lot of places in Europe and Asia, they have one large building with elevators, and within that, each floor has got, well... [6:06] Planning Board Member: Yeah, you said one store, two tents, and that was another thing that was actually... [6:10] Chair: And so, something like that, because it'd be one large building, similar to the large building you already have right so if his doors were all on the inside if the units were on the inside we're trying to not have because you've got to realize R2 also was Brooklyn Heights it's not just F&A [6:29] Planning Board Member: Market to the bridge and I understand that and that's why I almost thought that it need to be a clause that you've had a certain percentage of land or a certain amount of land before that could even be considered well we've got Creighton's out there I mean, from my perspective, I don't want to do self-storage is one where the person storage so I mean can access and get into their storage facility without getting through a building without security or anything like that where a storage building you would think you like there someone manages the building and if you need to get storage you have to enter man so the word self means it's, you can do it by yourself without interfacing with somebody else, I think would be that. Yeah, that's where the line's kind of weird, because if your building is only open, not like a 24-access building, there's obviously going to be someone there. [7:24] Chair: People are going to have to make appointments. [7:26] Planning Board Member: Yeah, I mean, it would be like, you know, [7:29] Speaker D (unidentified): 9 to 5, or [7:30] Chair: whatever your other business is right now. So if they were there, they could just, you know. [7:37] Planning Board Member: This is a It's a complicated question. So we allow storage in certain areas, but not self-storage? Self-storage, okay. Yeah, that's a weird other definition. [7:46] Chair: Well, the other gentleman that I thought you, Tom and Tim, I didn't accept. Anyway, Tom came to us and asked for basically like a warehouse kind of thing. He came for conditional use. He's the one that put that big dirt road thing going off before you get to the turn for 131 off there by what used to be. [8:08] Speaker D (unidentified): That's right. decide where I go. It means you have to go south. Yeah, going south. [8:13] Chair: That big driveway. And so what he planned on doing was storing components for solar projects, the big panels. That's what he came to us for, and that's what we approved. And then [8:32] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: he brought up that he might want to rent space [Speaker G (unidentified): at some point.] I mean, there's no building in existence right now, but I said, no, you can't just rent space. [8:44] Chair: No, and you can't just change an already approved use. You have to come back to the board. So he was approved for one use, one facility, with one purpose. And so now that he wants to change it, he'd have to come back through. And so that brought up, again, the whole storage unit thing, self-storage. [9:05] Planning Board Member: I have a question, Joanne. Sure. the character of this part of town is so different than Brooklyn Heights I know and I know that just changing the zoning is a nightmare and I don't know how many residences are in that general city [9:30] Chair: So what you're saying is from where 131 goes down to the bridge. Right. [9:39] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: This is what we were discussing before with the R2 and that one corridor that has a lot of divert on it, but it's zoned R2. [9:47] Planning Board Member: and what is there such a thing as the zone are to a I mean I can make an [9:53] Speaker G (unidentified): Overlay overlays, do you know how to do it? I mean, I don't hold it clear on a mud. [10:05] Chair: Well, somehow right there put one on top of another one, but then it doesn't tell you how you put it into your ordinance or how you enforce it. There's a lot of [10:14] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: of towns around us that have overlays in their ordinances. It's just a matter of deciding what would be in it to accommodate. [10:25] Chair: So they're creating something just on... because after you get to 131 and you're heading to the bridge, that's where we've had development of... well, you've got Kaj's antique place, it's been there forever. And then moving up, you've got the boat guy. Then you've got you. And so that's just on that side. And on the other side, we have Tibbets, which is still in my show land commercial because he's still, he has river frontage. And then we have that other lot that they still keep putting 18 millers on there. I don't know what they're doing. I know there was a time, gosh, way back, I probably remember, there was a time when a gentleman wanted to put a refrigerated building in there for, you know, just for the last one to be able to come and get the bait and stuff, and it would be refrigerated and all that. And then the neighbors all got together and shot it down big time, even though he was landscaping and everything. And so that didn't happen. And I think the gentleman sold a lot, but I'm not sure. So meanwhile, because for a while, if you remember, the trucks would just come and they would just back up to that kind of platform or ramp that he had. And the neighbors complained about the trucks, and so that's when he said, okay, I'll build a building, and so instead it's now across the river, it's that building on the left once you get across the river, they've got a lot of that building is what was going to be there, and that's the patent stuff of the last minute to come in anyway, so it's, it's kind of interesting that section from 131 down to the bridge on that side of the road has become conditional use [12:25] Speaker D (unidentified): different small things like your shop and so, but there are residences down in [12:33] Chair: there are residences, they're all mixed in, so all the residences are all on the [12:38] Speaker G (unidentified): other side of the street, there's someone just, well, I mean, you live and work in [12:43] Chair: your business, yeah, you live upstairs, yeah, so it's mixed, yeah, you've got the little, what is that, I forget the name of that street, you know what I mean about that, you're going down [12:54] Planning Board Member: yeah, so you can go down to the room down there Didn't, what's the name, have a place down there, the builder? Pardon? What was it building down, Rick? Didn't he have a place down there on the river? Or is that place talking about? [13:12] Chair: Yeah, that's it. And at one time he wanted to put his trucks, if you remember, he wanted to put his trucks on the lot that now has the boat transport business. And again, the neighbors complained, even though he assured them, not a single one of them was a refrigerated truck. Not a single one of them would be running. He now has his business down in Waldeboro, just before you get to Moose Crossing. Right inside, beautiful blue trucks. You know what with these transporters. All he wanted to do was to be able to have his guys, and what they do is they transport the white potatoes from Erskine County down south. They pick up the yellow potatoes, they bring them up. And he wanted one place where they could stop and let the trucks sit there, and they could have a place that they could then just kind of crash before they go the rest of the way, and vice versa. That's all he wanted. And the neighbors said no, so that didn't happen. [14:10] Planning Board Member: I don't know anything about overlays, but I mean if there could be some sort of an overlay so that it protects Brooklyn Heights and then everything has to be landscaped and hidden from the road. I mean, I'm just spitballing. I really don't know. [14:26] Speaker H (unidentified): Can I suggest that if they want to build a storage and have a facade so it looks like the area, so all the way around whether it's a fake roof or a side, I mean everything down there right now [14:42] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: looks pretty much the same. I don't know if you guys are all using the same [14:46] Planning Board Member: company for your building. They actually all asked me who I used. [14:49] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: I mean they're like legitimately the same color, the same, which is good, they blend and it is very inconspicuous. Yeah, it doesn't stand out, it doesn't look bad, so I mean I feel, I feel like in sticking in that, staying with that aesthetic doesn't hurt. [15:08] Chair: No, but my concern is if we allow self-storage, like the ones that Shepard has. Now, Shepard's also has a self-storage unit that most people don't own, a climate-controlled one, which is one large building within which there are different units in the building, so it can be climate-controlled. [15:28] Speaker G (unidentified): And you know, nobody's ever there. [15:29] Chair: And nobody even knows it's there. Nobody's ever there. I've had people call and say, is it climate-controlled storage anywhere in Thomaston? And I go, yes, I go, there is. So something nondescript like that, and that's blue. That sticks out. [15:42] Planning Board Member: Do the customers have direct access to that, or do they have to go through somebody to get it? [15:47] Chair: They would have to go through Shepherds, I would think, to get access, but I don't know. [15:52] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: I know that there's cameras on it, and maybe they have a code or something that they can get. [15:56] Chair: That could be. It's coded access. [15:57] Planning Board Member: I think it only works certain times of the day. [16:00] Speaker G (unidentified): Right. That makes sense. [16:02] Planning Board Member: So it sounds like access is the biggest delta between storage and self-storage? It almost sounds that way, yeah. [16:10] Chair: Yeah. Well, I'm just trying to make sure that... Well, the other thing is we just changed Brooklyn Heights to be something else. But when we tried changing District 2 about six years ago, we were told legally we could not do it because the comprehensive plan had put in there that no changes could happen to the R2 district. Now, would you put the change in the boundaries of it? [16:38] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: I agree. This is another question. [16:40] Chair: And then when I spoke to the attorney after, he said, no, legally, they should not have been able to put that in there. That should never have been approved. So putting you shall not change the boundaries of the district should never have been allowed. But it's in the comprehensive plan. Does that mean we have to abide by it? That is supposed to be comprehensive plan is supposed to be advisory. In other words, we can't do something extremely bizarre. But again, if we changed Brooklyn Heights to no longer be R2, then the issue of having self storage in that section of R2 would not be an issue. See what I'm saying? It's just that the Brooklyn Heights section of R2 was extremely residential. There is land available that if we then let it in, the old witness place up there on the left-hand side, it used to be a chicken farm. So you're going out there and you can see the nice white gamble roof, and then you've got the barns out behind it. As that got sold, there's a lot of acreage. There's a heck of a lot of storage buildings out there. And then the neighbors would probably [17:57] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Be drawn quarters, but they're also, they're also relegated to shoreline zoning law because those are far back. That one isn't. Well, I mean, this whole bit, I don't know what we're looking at. Oh, Bruce, looking at this? Yes. Okay, so like these properties here, protected pretty well because of shoreland. They're not sure. This is the only show. Well, they're in shoreland though. [18:23] Chair: No, this one is the only one that is. They're subject to shoreline zoning. [18:29] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: No, we don't have a shoreline zoning. No. [18:32] Chair: So what I'm saying is these two are not because they're not really on the water. And these are not on the water. [18:38] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: But these ones, I mean, this goes 250 feet this direction. So a lot of these are protected. Then there's just kind of this chunk in here. [18:50] Chair: Yeah. I'm looking at them now, is what we're looking at. I'm trying to figure out. [18:57] Planning Board Member: Oh, so there's a resource-protecting zone that goes all the way around the river. [19:00] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: It goes all the way around the river. Yeah, all the way. Both sides, like the oyster part and the... [19:05] Planning Board Member: This part of town already has such a commercial feel. [19:09] Chair: Yeah. That little bit of it. [19:10] Planning Board Member: Yeah. And I mean, I don't know how... [19:12] Chair: But they've done a good job of keeping it in the woods, which is what we asked you to do when you've done it. [19:16] Planning Board Member: And I don't know how these people feel about it. I mean, I feel like residential is sacred, but it's already, it's just such a commercial field. [19:28] Chair: Okay. These residents. [19:31] Speaker H (unidentified): They're below the ground. I mean, they're below the Route 1. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So hopefully time goes over. [19:38] Chair: Well, we've got the veterinarian, and then we've got the one that's supposed to be putting in. [19:43] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: But a lot of those lots, they just are one lot on the road, and then they go back. They go way back. So it's not like there's people behind them. [19:51] Planning Board Member: So is it R2 from Anthony Market all the way to the river? [19:55] Chair: Yeah, it is. Anthony is where it starts, basically, from there. So you're still in the R3. Yeah. Okay. So pretty much Scheibel's Lane is pretty much the end. That's kind of like the line. [20:10] Planning Board Member: We have an R3A. Can we have number two [20:13] Speaker G (unidentified): So are these [20:16] Speaker D (unidentified): permitted uses or conditional uses so [20:19] Planning Board Member: so storage units are permitted uses upon [20:24] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: commercial yeah [Chair: not in R2] storage only storage not storage units are conditional use in R2 ok [20:37] Planning Board Member: self storage are not allowed or storage units are not allowed [20:41] Chair: Self-storage units. [20:42] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: It doesn't currently state that specifically, which brings the confusion. Yes,. [20:49] Chair: Right now, the self-storage units we have right now are in the industrial and the highway commercial. Shepard's is a highway commercial. And the one by the motorcycle shop, that's the most recent one, that's industrial, that's on it. So that's what we've kept, though, pretty much. [21:08] Planning Board Member: Because ultimately isn't the ordinances for residential areas to protect the sanctity or something? Yeah, so I guess that's under the conditional parameters if somebody wants to do something under a permitted conditional use that the board make sure that the residential people in the area are not adversely [21:34] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Impact. It's also, you know, the conundrum is that there are businesses there in a zone that is not really zone for business. Well, that's because it's no [21:44] Speaker D (unidentified): There was additional use business, they were conditional uses, but it's so they [21:50] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Went through the process, right? They did, they came in for conditional use for the [21:53] Planning Board Member: And the neighbors put a command in and said, yay, nay, how about this? [21:59] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: They went through the fair process of everything. They did. So it's just a matter of having more clear definitions, I think. [22:10] Chair: Well, yeah, storage facility. [22:13] Planning Board Member: What does the, who's the state, who's your go-to reference at the state? Who do you go to for [22:23] Speaker D (unidentified): Legal advice? There isn't really [22:26] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Any one. Oh, Google? No, I do not use Google. Or AI. [22:34] Planning Board Member: Kara was a member on [Speaker G (unidentified): Oh, MMA. MMA.] How would they provide guidance on definitions? [22:41] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: They would be very vague and they would give you kind of a list of resources [22:45] Planning Board Member: Oh, MMA doesn't give you a hard and fast [22:48] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Okay, yeah, I mean I have a town attorney who we can ask questions to sometimes, you know, it's not always the answer we want to hear because he's not an ordinance lawyer. You don't have one of those on retainer? Not a lot of smaller towns do, but I mean we are actually in a position right now where we have one on hire to help us with the updates for the lds, so yes, yeah, so I can kind of squeeze these questions in here and there to him while we're, you know, I kind of thought the answer might be [23:27] Chair: If we just, you did one building to kind of match the one you've got, right, and you don't have to [23:32] Speaker D (unidentified): Make, I mean that's still a viable option to do that too, yeah, if you just made one building and [23:37] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: And then... Yes, that's something you're willing to do. [23:40] Chair: There used to be a place where you could go buy lumber. Maybe, I haven't gone to Hancock right now, but maybe I do. That basically had kind of like a big door at the end, and at the other end, you drove through. You went in the store, you ordered what you wanted, got your slip, you drove through, and they loaded it in your vehicle as you drove on through. Could you do something like that? Where you had all the units inside, and then nobody would know. [24:02] Planning Board Member: You definitely could. So it would basically be like a deal where it would be like Shepard's, the climate control one, but it would probably be just cold storage. [24:11] Chair: I wouldn't do it. No,, no. No, I'm just saying. [24:17] Planning Board Member: Are you driving extra costs for the business to do that just because of the brand? Well, that was the thing I was going to say. I'd have to price out and see what the prices difference are. [24:27] Chair: Yeah, so it would be like taking your one set. So instead of taking one that has doors on both ends, just take half of it, and you put it in the building this way, and she'd be able to put it on this side. [24:38] Planning Board Member: But it's still an extra cost for that big building. I know. And then the question is Brooklyn Heights. [24:46] Chair: Yeah, we still have Brooklyn Heights. [24:47] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: So we still have to figure out some sort of zoning update for protecting the areas that [24:54] Chair: are purely residential. We've conditionally approved things because people need to earn a living. We understand that. We're also a small town. We only have 11 square acres for the entire town. And the whole TR3 is basically swamp land. So that's another issue we're going to start working on. But anyway, so we're limited on what people can put in business. So that's why the conditional uses, I've got to review them again. And we do it every couple of years. And we take things out and we add things in and we clarify things. Like we're taking out a transportation facility because that doesn't fit anywhere in R2, which means a bus stop or a train station or something like that. It's like, that doesn't really fit. Yeah, it doesn't really fit. [25:44] Planning Board Member: Can I make a comment kind of related to what you're talking about, conditional uses, but kind of off the sidetrack? That conditional uses do not get notification of abutters. And that, in my perspective, is a concern because you're saying all these businesses are down there and the conditional use and abutters could have come in to voice any concerns. Well, if they don't know about it, and that's what happened with the F&A market. I just happened to catch that by looking at your planning board agendas. Oh, because I knew it was kind of maybe something. So not having notification of abutters for conditional uses and stuff like that, the transparency is missing so that you don't involve the people that would be impacted. [26:35] Chair: Yeah, it's a cost factor, Bob. [26:37] Planning Board Member: It's, I mean, you have the staff in the office. It's a matter of postage. [26:43] Speaker G (unidentified): It's a matter of, yeah, postage. [26:45] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: I am the staff. I am the staff that does. [26:47] Planning Board Member: Isn't there an assistant in your office? [26:50] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Well, they're leaving Friday, and we may get another one. [26:55] Planning Board Member: But I'm saying there had been an assistant. [26:57] Chair: There had been six months. Right. [26:58] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: We've had an assistant, not steadily, for the last three years. [27:04] Chair: We asked for that for the last 10, 15 years. [27:07] Planning Board Member: I just know, going back, when I was on the planning board, being so wrecked, he would, you know, anything he would ensure of others got involved. Because that's the right thing to do. So having those businesses down there, you say, well, geez, the people could have come and voiced if they knew what was going on. [27:27] Chair: It's interesting because the conditional use for the ice place, no letters went out, and the ice place was packed [27:33] Speaker D (unidentified): just based on the agenda. [27:37] Chair: So it's a cost factor for one thing, time factor for the other. I don't have time, and I certainly don't have the money. [27:45] Planning Board Member: I think money is limited for postage sure is I'm just saying it's not we try [27:52] Chair: to get the agenda out at least two weeks in advance that means people have to let us know how many days in advance in the ordinance yeah it's 21 20 days in advance yeah to get on a planning board so people don't and they don't get on the agenda and we're really going to be very strict on that going forward because it's too much work for you and for me to keep changing the agenda. So if the agenda's done, I try to get it out there two weeks in advance. For the workshops, it's been crazy. So they're not getting out there as fast as I'd like them to. [28:29] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: And these are fluid, too. [28:31] Speaker D (unidentified): Yeah, these are fluid. [28:32] Chair: That's why we have you here today. They're not on the agenda, but here we are, because our two is on the agenda. But I understand what you're saying a lot. If there was some way we could do it cost-effective when there's a big site [28:50] Planning Board Member: plan, I don't think you know notifications are a big cost driver they [28:56] Chair: are. So I mean we put out, you know, we put out, I get them on my phone and on my Facebook, I see, you know, my email, both emails, I get the notification for everything, every meeting, every agenda. [29:14] Speaker G (unidentified): You're supposed to send alerts. You can sign up for text alerts. [29:17] Chair: Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying. [29:19] Planning Board Member: But unless you're following it, if you're not following that town doings and you're just living your life in a residential area and your neighbor puts in a conditional use, you're not going to know about it unless someone tells you. [29:34] Chair: Yeah, well, as you know, that's been something that's been going around forever. They used to mail out the monthly newsletter, and people complained about getting too much mail. And then they made it so it's only available at a Thomas & Grocery and then online. And they sent it out, and people are complaining they don't get it now. What I'm saying, Bob, is no matter how many times we try to put it out there, and all we can say is... [29:58] Planning Board Member: But you're notifying people that are directly affected by an action of the board. [30:03] Chair: If we could get more money in the budget to do that kind of mailing. But look, some of the conditional use is very simple. It's conditional use for... Oh, we've got tons of them. But like last month... [30:16] Speaker G (unidentified): I made a food stand on the side of the road. [30:18] Chair: Yeah, a conditional use for an Airbnb. Airbnb. And, you know, so we'd have to publish that out. We had one person come for one meeting. That was it. And you're on the board and it was on your street. She didn't have any problem with it. [30:35] Planning Board Member: But not having the input from the butters when you do a conditional use is, I don't think, is appropriate. Because those are the people that are impacted. [30:46] Chair: Well, we're going to have to somehow find money in the budget to get that. [30:50] Speaker G (unidentified): We'll have to write it into the ordinance, too. [30:53] Chair: Yeah, we'd have to write it into the ordinance, too. [30:55] Planning Board Member: I digress, but get back to your storage. [30:57] Chair: No,, but we understand what you're saying, Bob. [31:01] Planning Board Member: Yeah, I just would like that to be seriously considered. And if it's a financial consideration, what is it financially? [31:08] Chair: I don't know about you, but I just got my tax bill yesterday. Yeah, ouch. Ouch. [31:13] Planning Board Member: Yeah. The reason I'm here is because we found out, because my husband and I hadn't been following, and we found out from one of our neighbors that Lyman Morse was going to build this huge steel building across the street from us. And it would have very negatively impacted the saleability of anyone on our street. I mean, you know, who wants a house [31:36] Speaker G (unidentified): that's got a thing right in the front yard? [31:38] Planning Board Member: And I do believe that residential properties have to be sacred if you're going to destroy their value in any way or their saleability. Yeah. Was that a conditional use from Lyman Morris? [31:51] Chair: Lyman Morris came and wanted to do... [31:55] Planning Board Member: Or if it's a permitted use, it's a difference... [31:57] Speaker G (unidentified): His wants would have been a site plan. They wanted to change the zoning. [32:00] Chair: Oh, a site plan. They wanted, well, this is what they wanted. They wanted to change the zoning. That side of the street, that lot, is residential. It's on Thatcher Street. As you're going down Thatcher, it's on the right-hand side. You know where I mean. And Ruth and her husband live on the left-hand side. [32:18] Planning Board Member: With it directly across. Well, regardless, I mean, just a mother should be level-wearing and involved in that process. [32:23] Chair: They wanted to change the zone, and we said no. We told them if they wanted to make it residential because they owned a lot they could certainly do residential in there they didn't want to do that [32:37] Planning Board Member: but I mean it would have been a very negative impact [32:40] Speaker G (unidentified): on being able to sell a house you know [32:44] Planning Board Member: sell a house for $500,000 or waiting 7 years and hoping to get $200,000 for it [32:49] Speaker D (unidentified): but it's the process [32:52] Planning Board Member: of involving the abutters on changes going on honor or conditional uses where you want that input from one of the others. [33:01] Chair: Yeah. It was on the agenda, and so the agenda was out there. But obviously, one of your neighbors looked at the agenda and saw that, and I don't know if I'd ever get it on the street. So every seat was packed, which was [33:12] Planning Board Member: wonderful. And if that person did... [33:14] Chair: And afterwards, I said to Ruth, if you really would like to have an impact, could you join us? She's now vice chair. But anyway, that happens quickly. [33:25] Planning Board Member: So... But yeah,, I just feel like the residences have to be protected. I mean, I'm very strong on that. On the other hand, we already have what looks like commercial. I don't know. [33:37] Speaker G (unidentified): It's just such a strange... [33:39] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: There's a store in there. [33:40] Planning Board Member: In the corner of Basin Market. [33:44] Chair: The Basin Market. That's all we can tell you. But anyway, and then you've got that big lot that has got the flying goose, so I assume it's protected somehow. [33:54] Planning Board Member: So what is the perceived negativity of self-storage in a residential area? [34:02] Speaker G (unidentified): They're usually unsightly. [34:04] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Having a big orange building with... [34:06] Chair: Well, the reason they're orange and warm is because... [34:09] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Cars driving in and out probably is my... [34:12] Planning Board Member: In a conditional use situation, you can abate those problems based on... [34:20] Chair: You can mandate what color they may be. [34:21] Planning Board Member: Whatever butter is input. They'd be dark colored, don't worry. [34:25] Chair: No,, no, we can do that. [34:27] Planning Board Member: Well, they'd be like that anyway. I don't want blue storage units or pink storage units or whatever color. [34:32] Chair: Well, the ones on 97 as you're coming after you go across the bridge, those are not supposed to be orange. But one of the neighbors complained so much, the man ordered orange. And that's how you got orange ones. [34:45] Planning Board Member: That's part of the process. Input from the abutters, people being impacted. [34:50] Chair: Active. Yeah, so anyway, but we're not warring. So I don't know what we do. We've got to figure out how to do an overlay. We've got to do something about the historic district. I've been waiting for the Historical Society for 15 years to do it, and they haven't, so I think we might just have to do it. But first we've got to figure out how the heck do you do an overlay? [35:12] Planning Board Member: And again, Brooklyn Heights is such a different character. It is. I mean, [35:18] Chair: I mean, I didn't create those zones. Those zones have been there for... Well, Bob, they were the same zones [35:23] Speaker D (unidentified): when you were on the board. [35:24] Chair: Was that 20 years ago? Yeah. Yeah. [35:29] Speaker G (unidentified): Well, like we said, too, there's always changing the zone [35:32] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: in a different area. [35:34] Chair: I mean, we're already talking about possibly... Maybe easier that way. To change Brooklyn Heights to a different zone. [35:42] Planning Board Member: What, to allow self-storage? [35:44] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: No,, to change the zone of Brooklyn Heights. [35:47] Chair: Just change Brooklyn Heights, and then we can do that. [35:49] Planning Board Member: Oh, to protect Brooklyn Heights from potential... [35:51] Chair: From R2 to make it R2-8. I don't know. [35:57] Planning Board Member: Of course, then the question is the people who live down here. Nice to remember. Yeah. I mean, would they still be R2? Would they be treated... [36:06] Chair: Yeah, we leave it all R2. [36:08] Planning Board Member: Would they be treated like Brooklyn Heights since it's all residential? I mean, it's a can of worms. I don't know how you look at that. [36:16] Chair: Well, yeah, some lots that are huge. [36:21] Planning Board Member: But to the matter at hand, [36:23] Speaker G (unidentified): do you think that Tim would [36:28] Speaker D (unidentified): have a conditional use [36:30] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: if he were to do one of the buildings with the stuff inside of it? [36:35] Chair: Yeah, I mean, storage facility is almost like a warehouse kind of thing. I was just surprised. I never even thought of it. But that's what they do in the big cities they have. [36:46] Planning Board Member: Well, so I had asked that at the last meeting that I came in, and I don't know if you would have understood by then when I had said that. No. It would be one big building with multiple units inside of it. [36:59] Chair: No, see, that, because it would be docked like the one you've got. [37:03] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: It doesn't really negate the current definition. [37:05] Chair: And it doesn't negate the current definition. And it would not be unsightly, because your building you have now is not unsightly. Amazingly nobody is called And I usually get calls [37:19] Planning Board Member: What building do you have? Cloud 9 [37:22] Chair: Oh okay Yeah they're a big beautiful I like [37:25] Planning Board Member: Well the color scheme [37:26] Speaker D (unidentified): Somebody complained about a sign [37:29] Planning Board Member: Yeah everyone that I tell where it is They always end up driving by at first The only thing that I tell them Look for the green mailbox It'll stop [37:37] Chair: There you go But the only complaint I've had from anybody Is your sign They didn't like it I said I thought it looked pretty good but we don't dictate sign so anyway yeah if you did one building with them enclosed I mean what were you thinking how many were you thinking [37:58] Planning Board Member: well I'd have to go back and talk to the manufacturer that I was talking with originally and see what we could spec out to fit inside a building and potentially how many units it would be [38:11] Speaker G (unidentified): You're just turning it inside out, right? [38:13] Chair: You're kind of turning it inside out, you're right. I'm just putting it down through. [38:18] Planning Board Member: Landscaped to soften it? Yeah. [38:21] Speaker H (unidentified): Would it be one floor or multiple? [38:24] Chair: Multiple adds more pricing. [38:25] Planning Board Member: I'd probably do two floors. My building I have right now is 20 foot on each, so you could do two 10-foot floors. [38:32] Chair: Then you'd have to have an elevator. And they're pricey. [38:36] Planning Board Member: Oh, I already got one already made up in my head. [38:41] Chair: okay well they don't have to be a fancy elevator you're right it would be like [38:46] Planning Board Member: an elevator any kind of a so if you built some would any residential areas be able to see it so it would be far enough off the road that I think the only time you would ever see maybe the back of the building is in the winter time when the leaves are off the trees in the back is the river the back would be it would be down by the edge of that field right there oh because i own from the bulk transfer place right the edge of that field okay yeah that great big field that's the flying [39:17] Chair: duck yeah he owns all of that open space open space that's what the open space yes but he owns [39:26] Planning Board Member: so it's the second biggest piece of property on that road before 131. pardon it's the second biggest piece of property on that road before 1-31. [39:33] Chair: Yeah, it is. It's a big piece, and I understand your need to have your money to pay the taxes. Yeah, $14,000. [39:42] Planning Board Member: Don't go there. Don't go there. [39:49] Chair: Okay, Mr. Scholar. So anyway, so where do we stand on this right now? You want to talk with your folks and find out if that is doable? [40:03] Planning Board Member: I'm sure it's definitely doable. It's just going to be what the cost difference is, and obviously I want to get a plan or whatever so you guys can see this, if it's something that you guys would even want me to do. So how are you defining what you're talking about versus self-storage? Self-storage is we've got storage, that's where I was like trying to understand, because it's just a matter of doors on the outside, because the next person's going to argue, what did you If you let him do storage, I want to do my storage. What is the delta here that's allowing... [40:37] Chair: You would have to do conditional use first to get approved to have that kind of a building. Then you'd have to do site plan, just like you did with your original building, and we would do the whole site plan process, and you'd have that wall. That one's very long. [40:51] Planning Board Member: But you're calling this a storage building, not a self-storage. Yeah. And part of that is kind of, like, so self-storage is, it you have access 24-7, or if you consider the storage, you have access between this time and business hours. Yeah, you would decide that kind of stuff. But then someone could twist that and say, well geez, I have a locked gate on my self-storage unit, so I have restrictive access during normal hours. So I think it would be, they would have a code to get in, is what it would basically amount to. So they could get in 24-7? If they will, if that's how I have this. Yeah, yep, that's why I don't want to have everything done online, so as far as, like, I don't even want to have an office there. You can set everything up online, yeah, and then you can come drop stuff off, pay online, everything's online, but if you get into a storage building, do you now have to get into fire protection systems and yada, or [41:53] Speaker D (unidentified): self-storage yada? Self-storage require that? No, it's all the same code requirements. [42:00] Planning Board Member: I'm just thinking by pushing it to under one building, what extra cost for the business to do that? Good question. I didn't need to put a fire suppression in my building that I have right now because I was within 100 feet of the fire hydrant. There's a fire hydrant across the street. I don't know what the traffic driver says. [42:21] Chair: You put an apartment above it. It was tall enough, and in the back of it you put an apartment, and the fire chief said, I said it was fine because all of the windows, easily, something could go in and out the windows. [42:33] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Easy egress. And you fire-blocked everything. [42:36] Chair: And you fire-blocked everything. [42:38] Planning Board Member: Yeah, two layers. I'm just thinking, do self-storage units like Shepard's have? They don't have fire-protection systems. [Chair: No, not those.] So would a building that had storage in it require fire-protection? [42:50] Chair: We'd have to go back and look at what we have. [42:52] Planning Board Member: That's another cost for you. Well, yeah, that's all going to really need a year. [42:57] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: No,, I mean the climate control. [42:59] Planning Board Member: Inside or outside access. [43:01] Chair: That's what I'm asking. Even two. Who is part of it? [43:05] Planning Board Member: It's a lot. Well, no, you can go to the address. Yeah, no address. You don't have to. It'll work. Plain devil's advocate, if people are allowed to come in 24-7 to look for their stuff. I wouldn't want that because I live there. Yeah, because, I mean, the people around it, you know, if you see lights from cars and hear voices and you don't know who's walking around close to your yard, [43:28] Speaker G (unidentified): that's unnerving, so. [43:31] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: You could follow the noise ordinance for residential, but no, the hours for the night. Oh, the hours for the night. It's like seven to nine p.m. [43:41] Speaker G (unidentified): Yep. I've been done by like nine. Yeah, that's very nice. [43:44] Speaker D (unidentified): So, seven to nine is the commercial. [43:47] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: That's what I mean. I'm just saying as like parameters, [43:49] Speaker G (unidentified): that's what the town says. [43:51] Planning Board Member: Maybe like seven o'clock, seven o'clock. Where the neighbors aren't seeing cars and hearing people. Well, again, it's going to be farther above the road than the front half of that. Where that building would be. There's, I don't know, 300 feet, maybe 200 feet of woods right there between the road and where the building would be anyway. [44:12] Chair: Yeah, and you've left out most of your trees, which is what they asked you to do. [44:17] Planning Board Member: Yeah, I'm cleaning up all the crappy stuff. I know. Most of it's all blow-down stuff. I know. So the guy that's up the street that's building now, that's a storage facility? Mm-hmm. [44:28] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Yeah. His plan so far is a wide open warehouse with no build-out on the inside. Yep. [44:35] Chair: So basically, a storage facility is a commercial building, which is what he has. It's a safe-keeping storage of goods not being used, such as boats, cars, and other large items. So he was going to store... [44:48] Speaker G (unidentified): He's storing solar... solar panels. [44:51] Chair: Solar parts. So if you were doing a big solar thing out there by Dunkin' Donuts out that way and they all got shipped from China at one time, store them there and then as you needed them you would just go and get the parts and that kind of thing. That was his plan. So if he wants to change that plan he needs to come back and see us again because it's a change of use. [45:16] Planning Board Member: I still think he plans on doing the solar stuff. I have one of those containers sitting at my shop right now. [45:25] Chair: Okay. That's good to know. Where do we stand on this? A, you find out if it's even financially doable to do one building. How's that? And then we will try to figure out what can we do to R2 to make it, do we make an R2A being Brooklyn Heights and keep that very residential. And then you're going to find, I mean, I'm not going to be on this board forever. Let's face it. Oh, yeah,. [45:57] Planning Board Member: So you want to you want to pull the Brooklyn Heights out as a separate zone to protect it so the residential guys down where we're talking about aren't afforded the same protection see [46:10] Speaker D (unidentified): There you go I'm just I don't know just you know that's good I think there's a way to [46:17] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: To protect all of the residential areas and give the Route 1 corridor a truer definition, a truer zone to what it actually represents. [46:31] Planning Board Member: That would be great if you didn't have residences in there already. [46:34] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: But it's like that all over town you will find, and it's impossible to avoid, really. [46:40] Planning Board Member: Because changing the game after someone's already set in place is not fair no [46:49] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: You're right but change is inevitable and is important it really needs to match more closely [46:57] Speaker D (unidentified): I mean yeah [46:59] Planning Board Member: No that section of group 1 is underutilized [Speaker G (unidentified): Yeah right] Is there any plans for sewer and water getting down there [47:10] Chair: Water goes down by there right water goes all the way to the bridge [47:14] Planning Board Member: Because I thought that subdivision up by the veterinarian that was held off because of what sewer probably years ago they were looking to maybe develop in that yeah and there's no sewer [47:27] Chair: Or anything yeah because her land goes way back too and then you get the farm that's the only farm that we have in R2 is that beautiful farm there, the organic farm. So, but that had been, always been a farm. Long before there was any zoning in this town at all, that was a farm. And so it was grandfathered. And so when she came and wanted to do the organic farm, we had a lot of neighbors came because, again, it was a big deal. And not one of them, nobody on Riverview, nobody had a complaint. Even though we spelled it right out, you know, you're going to have cows, you're going to have chickens, there's going to be smell. And nobody complained. And of course, the veterinarian, Margo's got horses. And again, nobody complains. But technically, even though she's got a house. It's a business too. It's mine. So we are definitely going to have to talk a lot more about R2. I agree. It was on the agenda to do R2 anyway this season. We shuffle them down each year. We do a different one or two or three. So R2 was definitely in the works. Compatitive, if you look at Brooklyn Heights, this is our two Brooklyn Heights, and you've got this big open space here which is Creighton's, and you've got this big open space here which is Attica's farm, and this is the Witten property, so you've got big chunks of land, but Jeff will not sell any of his land, you know that. But the other issue we have is making a shoreline district, which means all these lots here would no longer be R2, they'd all be shoreline. So that's another thing. [49:23] Planning Board Member: Why wouldn't they be shoreline now if they're on? [49:26] Chair: Because we just don't have a shoreline zone. We have a shoreline commercial zone, which is that little pink thing right there. [49:34] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: And all this pink here. Currently the confusion is they have to follow shoreline zoning laws, but there is no zone. [49:40] Chair: So we're looking at doing that. That'll probably be next year. So, yeah, because the state keeps throwing us these little wrenches called LDs. They have changed the residential laws in this state every year for the last five years. And we have kept trying to keep up and keep up and keep up. This time they are so intensive that we have hired an attorney who does that kind of stuff to do it. And this sweetheart here got a nice grant that's paying for it. So the taxes won't be impacted. All right. So if, you know. [50:25] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Buy some more money for this other stuff. [50:27] Chair: Buy some more money for some other parts because they are resource protection. If you look at the, it's just insane. It's huge. Every little trickle of water that ever went down through any piece of grass is RP. Yeah. And after the grand extreme drought, the state has declared Knox County in the extreme drought this year. That hasn't changed after the rain last week. It's still the same. So we've got to really consider, are these really resource-protected? Because how many years ago was that put in there, Bob? It was before I came back. I mean, I've been on the board 20 years. That's why it can't stay on forever. Anyway, so it needs to be revised. But again, that is a humongous project. So maybe if we can get some funding somewhere, or maybe we can get an attorney that knows how to do resource protection can do that part. So we keep kicking that one down the road. But we will look at our two, and we will see what we can do. If you could, on your end, just kind of find out what would it cost to do that and make it in one building. If it's really cost prohibitive, then of course it's cost prohibitive. [51:42] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: And if it's something that he can do, can he come back for conditional use? [51:49] Chair: Yeah, because then it would be a storage facility. One large, big storage facility within which you've got separate little cubbies, kind of thing. As big as you want or as little as you want. [52:02] Planning Board Member: So self-store right now is only commercial and industrial zones? Yeah. [52:08] Chair: I don't know if it's in the R1. [52:11] Planning Board Member: Because of the access to it, if they had access 24-7. [52:14] Chair: Yeah, the access is, I've got to see if it's in R1. Let me double check. [52:21] Planning Board Member: Because R1. R1 is like the most rural, right? Yeah. [52:28] Chair: R1 is, I have to get past Emory Avenue, which is my street. R1 is all the way out to the line, basically. Walk along the line. Okay. We have 43 things in the R1. And interesting, we don't have storage building of any kind in the R1 because that's supposed to be rural. We're supposed to leave it as rural as we can. [Planning Board Member: So no businesses.] Oh no, we've got 43 conditional uses which we will be reviewing. Yeah, because some of them we will take out multi-unit residential structure, which is number 23, because we already have apartment building. It's the same thing. So, everywhere that little one shows up, it's going to come up. Do they need a condominium? [53:38] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: No, that's a separate thing altogether. [53:40] Planning Board Member: No, because an apartment and a condominium are different, but they're both multi-resident. [53:49] Chair: Yeah, that's true. Something's weird there. [53:52] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Well, just stay in touch, Tim, and thank you. [53:55] Speaker H (unidentified): Yeah, definitely. [53:56] Chair: Yeah, definitely. You bring up some very good arguments. We're just trying to keep the residential part of it. [54:05] Planning Board Member: I understand that. I'm just trying to pay my taxes, that's all. [54:09] Chair: We understand that. That's why we've had some businesses out there. And some of them, the businesses were already there. The antique dealership's been there. I don't know. [54:27] Speaker D (unidentified): it was chicken farm that's what those great big buildings are they were chicken farm I don't I can't remember if college was there but I can't I didn't know when I was a kid there was a chicken [54:41] Chair: Not a big one, and that's what he sees, just converted those. They started that. [54:45] Speaker D (unidentified): Until the, till the 90s, it was 92. I don't remember a chicken, any chicken activities. They were just older run-down chicken bars, so he converted. It's like, [55:09] Chair: Like, if any market was Vinyl's Dairy. Well, it was. That's what the Cinderblock product was. It was Vinyl's Dairy, and they lived across the street in that lovely house. I don't know what color it is now, but anyway. Yeah. Okay, we will work on two. You work on your end. Let Courtney know. Thanks for coming in. Yeah, no problem. No, it's definitely a good concern. Yep. [55:35] Planning Board Member: I'm trying to make everything cross all my T's, not all my I's. [55:40] Chair: Well, I understand that. I appreciate that very much. All right. Thank you, guys. [55:48] Speaker G (unidentified): Let's see. I'm too tired to carry on. No. [55:53] Chair: We try to keep these down to an hour, but it was important to let him be heard, definitely. Okay. Okay, so, what we did last time is we did look at, let's just go quickies and easies. The noise, the noise one, I just wanted it to be approved that it actually is what we agreed on last week. [56:34] Speaker H (unidentified): Is it? That's good to me. Okay. [56:43] Chair: Everybody agrees with that? Yep. Okay. Okay. So basically what we did is we looked at the noise ordinance we currently have, and the decibels were so low that we were just sitting here talking and we already had gone beyond the decibels. It was like, okay. So we have basically increased them to be more realistic. We kept the same hours. So now it'll be hybrid commercial industrial will be $150 from 7 to 9, $130 from 9 to 7am, and then Sherline commercial and village commercial will be $150 again from 7am to 9pm, and then 9pm to 7am it's $130, and the R1 and the R3A will be $100 during the 7am to 9, and then the 9 to 7 will be $90, and then the same for the R2, R3, and the TR3 will be the $100 during the day and 90 at night. And so you guys have all said that was fine. So then I will mark that as done. Okay, the other one that we already talked about was the timber harvesting. As I got working on the timber harvesting, trying to figure out how to make it fit into, it just didn't fit. It did not fit in that 705 at all. It does fit in this section because this is the section when anybody comes in to do something, it's part of the general standards of performance. But what I've proposed is we leave it in the general standards of performance, and what we do is we add in this little blurb the beginning is what's on the state, and so I thought that might help. And then basically add the following regulations apply to all districts in which conditional use timber harvesting is allowed. And then, clearly, we need to figure out where we put the timber harvesting. [59:03] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Do we have timber harvesting as conditional use in any zone? [59:08] Chair: We're going to add it. Okay. Yes, we're going to add it. Sure. But only in a way that makes sense. Then, if you go through, I've added it in on, like, hazard trees, stone-damaged trees, dead tree removals. So I've added in as well as all districts where conditionally used timber harvesting as well so [Speaker H (unidentified): this keeps] referencing, the only timber harvesting we had anywhere was in the shorelands because that was mandated by the state, and this verbiage is actually verbatim from the shoreland zone that was put out there. It's in here, Bill Watson was the code enforcement officer at the time, so that was a while ago, and we just did a cut and paste, we took it straight from the state regulation, and I went out and I checked to make sure that we were referencing the correct, so that's where it's named title 12 sub chapter 3A forest practices in section 8869, so where I thought we might put it, timber harvesting. [1:00:30] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: I'm pretty sure that timber harvesting in general has to follow the same rules no matter where it is because of erosion control and water protection and all of that stuff. [1:00:41] Chair: Yeah, so I was looking at putting it, let's see, trying to think of where they had enough land. [1:00:54] Speaker D (unidentified): Bar 1. Bar 1. and TR3 [1:01:00] Chair: so R1 TR3 [1:01:07] Planning Board Member: you're trying to put Ornitz's blade at timber harvest [1:01:11] Speaker D (unidentified): because what happened is [1:01:13] Chair: you know out there by Walmart when the guy came to get permission basically [1:01:23] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: that's what happened yeah [1:01:24] Chair: and so all we could do we could regulate where he could put his entrances to get in there, because we had nothing on timber harvesting except in the shoreline. So that triggered us to be thinking, well, he's kind of done that whole strip across from Hope River. [1:01:44] Planning Board Member: But what he did was clear-cut it. He wiped it right out, versus somebody going in selective [1:01:48] Speaker D (unidentified): cut and that's the… Yeah, no, he harvested the whole thing, [1:01:51] Chair: which is timber harvesting. Took it all. And sold it. Sold that. That's what got us thinking. [1:01:57] Planning Board Member: He took all the wood and then he sold the land? [1:02:00] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: No, he sold the wood. Yeah. He's in the process of it. [1:02:02] Planning Board Member: I thought the process, he was clearing the land to develop it for something. [1:02:08] Chair: He found out as he cleared it, there's not much you can do with that land. It goes boop. [1:02:13] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: He's got RP right behind him, which for a good reason. [1:02:16] Chair: Yeah, there is. It is a watershed. [1:02:19] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: But he had to stay within that 75 feet or else get DAP involved, and then he just stopped because he didn't want to do the DP permitting so I'm just [1:02:29] Planning Board Member: thinking you're putting in criteria for anybody that has any land if they want to cut wood on it you're going to have ordinances that regulate yeah in certain zones that's what this is [1:02:42] Chair: supposed to do in certain zones right so this is the regulation let's say you're going out dragon's got some wooded area out there but unless they sell that land I don't think [1:02:57] Planning Board Member: how would a landowner want to use his forested land if you must cut timber and has a bandsaw or you know cut firewood stuff like that you're going to regulate that no I don't think so I [1:03:14] Speaker D (unidentified): think this is more specific to clear cutting then it should probably state that yeah because in the [1:03:22] Planning Board Member: back of my mind i cut firewood out back am i going to have now ordinances that tell me [1:03:27] Speaker D (unidentified): no i mean that's only if you plan on cutting all of the trees down if the intent is clear cut and [1:03:38] Planning Board Member: or commercial harvest and then yeah i think the ordinances should specify that because I'm reading this and I don't see any delineation between a homeowner doing something that might have 50 acres versus a commercial operation coming up. [1:03:54] Chair: That one that got cleared up, that's not 50 acres. No, nowhere near. I [1:04:08] Speaker G (unidentified): was just talking to myself. [1:04:11] Chair: Yeah, we all are. [1:04:14] Planning Board Member: So basically if somebody wants to do it, they just have to follow good practices at the state level. [1:04:19] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: I mean, the state already dictates them in that Title 12. [1:04:22] Chair: Yeah. Yeah, for sure is. [1:04:24] Speaker D (unidentified): So you're adopting that for certain areas. [1:04:30] Planning Board Member: Excuse me. Yeah, so. So just clarify that it makes sense what the requirement is. [1:04:41] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: That it should not, that it should. So any zone needs to follow Title 12, because they have to anyway. They have to anyway. [1:04:51] Chair: But you don't have anything that you can legally tell them they have to sign? Still no. There's no permit. No. And so that's the problem. There was no permit. There was nothing that could be done to make sure that they... [1:05:05] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: The big P&E stuff goes through them directly. and I mean this is just like a layer of protection for the neighbors for the [1:05:15] Chair: Neighbors, yeah, I guess I mean, we've all driven down streets and all of a sudden you get so great because we're one, I'm gonna be one and warm all of a sudden. [1:05:24] Speaker D (unidentified): There's a whole second she's been totally wiped out if I own that land and [1:05:29] Planning Board Member: I want to make it a field, I should have that right, but you need to come in and [1:05:34] Chair: just come in and get the conditional use approvals. [1:05:37] Planning Board Member: I disagree. I think you should follow whatever state regulations. [1:05:41] Speaker D (unidentified): That's what he says. It's a state. [1:05:44] Planning Board Member: But to get a conditional approval could be denied. No, you can't clear your land for make a fee on that. [1:05:50] Chair: I think in all the years I've been on this, how many times have I ever? [1:05:54] Planning Board Member: Well, I'm just saying what you just said. It's just for them to come in [1:05:58] Chair: so that the neighbors could then just know what they're doing. [1:06:02] Planning Board Member: But by conditional use, it needs to be approved for them to do that and I don't think that's appropriate for someone to use their own land if they're following state guidelines. [1:06:17] Chair: Well the thing is how do we put it in the ordinance then? Because if we don't put it in a district then they're going to come in and say, well it's not in there. So I don't have to go by what the state said [1:06:28] Planning Board Member: it's not in there. Well Charles was saying all timber harvesting, commercialing, clear cutting must follow state regulations. [1:06:35] Chair: Where would you put it? You wouldn't put it as an issue? What I'm saying, Bob, is where. So when you've got, like, for example, this is TR3. You've got permitted, you've got conditional. There's no place in there that we could add. Oh, and by the way, so it either has to be a permitted or a conditional use. That's all we can control. [1:06:55] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: So do we make it a permitted use in all zones? [1:06:58] Speaker D (unidentified): And then they have to follow the first chapter of Title 12. [1:07:07] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: we've got so many of these things [1:07:09] Chair: like we've got something in the little asterisk thing down below we've got like all these things so we made it a permitted use in all zones and then put one of those funny little asterisk things down below said [1:07:25] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: must follow by with state title [1:07:28] Chair: but who's to say they're going to if there's no [1:07:34] Planning Board Member: I mean when you see commercial When you see commercial harvesting on the side of the road at an access point, you usually see some sort of number or sign that they've been to the state. [1:07:47] Chair: Right, they have to, by law, put up their number or whatever. [1:07:54] Speaker D (unidentified): There's no sign up there. There's a process. All the trees are gone. [1:07:58] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Yes, Maine Forest Service. [1:08:01] Chair: Yes, Maine Forest Service. [1:08:04] Speaker D (unidentified): So they do have to do that for big jobs. Yeah, same with the same as a state city. What's the minimum size they need to do that? I'm sure it does. That's what this tells you, what size trees [1:08:16] Planning Board Member: and everything. It's not, I'd say what size for how many lot process, how many acres of being and harvested. [1:08:24] Chair: I spent quite a while on Saturday going down through Title 12 subsection blah,, blah. And like everything else with the state laws, it's clear as mud. [1:08:38] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: I'm sure you keep it vague on purpose. Yeah. [1:08:41] Planning Board Member: Maybe ask the foresters over in Waldenboro, hey, how do we regulate this? That's a good idea. [1:08:51] Chair: There are foresters over in Waldemar? [1:08:55] Planning Board Member: Route 32 in Waldemar heading out, is it Jefferson? [1:08:59] Chair: Jefferson all the way [1:09:00] Planning Board Member: oh yeah, okay. They've got a little place up there. Yeah. [1:09:04] Speaker D (unidentified): All I know is... Didn't Pete [1:09:06] Planning Board Member: Lambert used to work for the [1:09:08] Chair: Peter Lurk for the University of Maine. [1:09:10] Speaker G (unidentified): Are they in any work for the State of Maine? [1:09:13] Chair: He worked for the State of Maine. [1:09:14] Planning Board Member: He was forestry at the State of Maine. But that's what you're talking about? the place out on 32 I thought that was this yeah if you're going all the way out 32 you're taking [1:09:23] Speaker D (unidentified): that it's probably Jefferson it's in Jefferson you're right it's before you get to the little [1:09:29] Planning Board Member: Jefferson I'll look into it yeah just a simple hey how would we want to make sure they follow the rules how do we put in our ordinances to make them follow the rules yeah so that [1:09:40] Speaker D (unidentified): so that we have a little teeth in the orange just need to have some way so that because the phone [1:09:45] Chair: phone calls I've got, once that guy started cutting the trees, non-stop, and I'm still getting them, what is he going to do over there? What is he going to do over there? It's like, I don't know. Until he comes to us, I don't know what he's going to do there. [1:09:59] Planning Board Member: But if someone wants to cut wood on his land, if it's not a commercial or a clear cut, or whatever the state dictates, then it's that person's own business. [1:10:11] Speaker D (unidentified): listen yeah I just try to go out don't overly regulate somebody no we hate to [1:10:18] Chair: over-regulate but I also need to get the phone calls after something is done [1:10:22] Speaker D (unidentified): sometimes you gotta answer phone calls oh I answer my emails yeah there's no [1:10:30] Planning Board Member: reason you didn't stay on the plane but isn't there a lot that bothers me about that particular lot is that it doesn't seem to have been for anything when all [1:10:39] Chair: all of a sudden done no I mean it's not like there's no plane went there and [1:10:44] Speaker G (unidentified): then you had nothing but trees and it's not like you suddenly have workers [1:10:49] Planning Board Member: housing that went in now or something of value it's just gone maybe one piece [1:10:54] Speaker D (unidentified): Paper. Okay, well, I think he thought he could do some big. I thought he was [1:10:58] Planning Board Member: clearing it because he had a project to. Thought, I mean, I thought so too. I [1:11:03] Chair: I remember the first time that came up to the planning board is, gosh, that was back when Bill was here again. A company wanted to come in and do solar because they thought if they cut down, they would leave the trees closer to the road, but they would cut down everything else because it faced south. And then they got in there and they started walking it and realized it dropped so quickly down to the little brook that feeds into the marsh. And all of a sudden they go, oop, you can't do that, so they pulled back. Another solar company came along, had the same idea, and they said, nope, can't do it. Because if you think about it, if they just, and he's added fill and stuff, he's done that, but if you put a building there, it would just have, the front of it would be, because you'd have to have parking in the front, and that would take up all the flat area. So you put the building just barely, and then it would all be, so all your rooms and stuff would be below ground and looking out. I mean, that's the only kind of building [1:12:05] Planning Board Member: that could go in there, a walk out business two stories down. I mean, if you did [1:12:11] Chair: if you did like some kind of apartment, an apartment building where two stories were visible from the street, well, you got in there, you had an elevator that went down [1:12:21] Speaker D (unidentified): and you had like, so you went down below [1:12:25] Chair: Oh, that's your underground apartment. [1:12:30] Planning Board Member: No, because I thought he's been picking away doing moving earthwork and he's stumping it and yada thinking that okay yeah it's just a slow approach. I thought he had an idea too but [1:12:40] Chair: he hasn't come to us yet because he has a new site plan and all that engineering stuff and then he gets it all done and he realized -oh it really is straight down [1:12:52] Planning Board Member: Well, you didn't have to clear it to figure that out. [1:12:54] Chair: Well, you'd think so. He wanted the quick money back to pay off what he paid for it, I think, so but now he's stuck with it and I don't know what he can do. No idea, but that just brought up to us the fact that we have no say whatsoever on clear cutting except for the showland district it seems like. [1:13:24] Planning Board Member: In a commercial setting, they should have to present their plan before they take all the trees out because you can't reverse that. No, and it's not so much to limit them from doing with their land what they want to do, but prove that you have a project that is viable before you do irreversible harm. How Young, how to add that in or bring that out? Or as long as, for instance, on that, as long as he's taking care of erosion control and not impacting wetlands, he hasn't done anything irreversible. He's harvested [1:14:07] Chair: the wood off. Has he done any of that? I mean, he had no control. There was some skirting up down there [1:14:13] Planning Board Member: because he was touching the ground. I mean, the state's not, the state could have been in there [1:14:17] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: regularly, right? Well, when he was told that he had to go to DP if he wanted to cross that threshold, he stopped because he didn't want to deal [Speaker D (unidentified): with my assumption] So yeah, the state can regulate to that threshold and we have no [1:14:38] Planning Board Member: But someone not knowing what regulations and what requirements are pertinent to the activities doesn't mean we've got a lot more ordinances if the state already had control of what he was doing [Chair: No, they didn't.] But they had rules for it. He just wasn't involved with them, correct? [1:15:00] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: No, he was doing what he could do until he got to a place, a literal physical place where he had to [1:15:08] Chair: 75 feet to set back and he decided I'm done. So way down to the bottom of the still centuries [1:15:17] Speaker D (unidentified): So he did [1:15:18] Planning Board Member: He found the loophole [1:15:20] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Essentially to do what? To clear all that land and just leave it as is without getting my fears [1:15:27] Chair: involved, without getting the same thing, because there's nothing holding that dirt. It's going to [1:15:32] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: be a mess probably, but [1:15:35] Chair: this time it's done and we're trying to prevent it from getting done again, right? And I just thought if we put timber harvesting only in the like [Speaker D (unidentified): Is] There any timber anywhere out in R2 on Bourbon Heights? Not really. [1:15:58] Planning Board Member: I mean all the stuff around the sewer plant lagoon system, what about all that? Excuse me? All the acreage out there by the lagoon system and stuff, you know the town owns it. Yeah. [1:16:09] Speaker D (unidentified): Isn't that R2? I mean half of that's boring, half of that's swamp. No, that's not R2. [1:16:16] Speaker G (unidentified): There's the pit. [1:16:18] Planning Board Member: I'm just saying there's chunks of land out there that could fall over this. [1:16:23] Chair: And the town would have to come to the planning board for approval. [1:16:28] Planning Board Member: I'm just saying there is land that can be suitable to harvest. [1:16:35] Chair: That's the town forest out there, and I've got a feeling the people in town would have an absentee. [1:16:39] Planning Board Member: I'm not saying, I'm just saying there is land there, Beechwood Street. [1:16:45] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: There's still forested areas. Yeah, there is. [1:16:49] Chair: West Meadow Road, even going on Oconee Road past Carroll. [1:16:54] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Behind the farm on the Westgate farm there, Thomaston Street. [1:17:00] Chair: Between Thomaston Street there is, yeah. [1:17:02] Planning Board Member: Between Thatcher and Fluker, there's the old paper street or whatever. [1:17:07] Chair: Caroline Street? Yeah, the street there. Caroline Street's supposed to go through there. [Planning Board Member: It's wooded.] It's Devlin's driveway. Yeah, it's Caroline Street. They got permission to put their driveway down to the back. But that's Caroline Street. Between that big house and their house is supposed to be Caroline Street. It's still on the paper maps. It's still there. But it's awful swampy out in there. But you could easily run the water lines and the sewer lines down there. It's not as swampy as it used to be. No, it's fine right now. But it's RP, the whole thing. Yeah. But anyway, so what do we think we want to do with this? [1:17:52] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Maybe give more thought to the verbiage and see if we can. That's a way to give landowners their due and make sure that people aren't doing that at the same time. Yeah. [1:18:10] Chair: Okay, so we will put this on hold. And [1:18:19] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: I'll reach out to those folks if I can figure out who they are. [1:18:23] Planning Board Member: I don't know if they might be a resource. Absolutely. [1:18:29] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: It's always better to talk to the people that are out there doing it because I can talk to anybody in an office. [1:18:34] Chair: If you talk with Peter, he does not want any tree cut down anywhere. No, that's true. He tried to stop a person cutting a tree on their land, not on the town land, and the police got involved, and yeah, the tree came down, but it was quite interesting, I said. [1:19:03] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: And avoid situations like that. Yes, a healthy ordinance. Yeah, I mean, the tree was deader than [1:19:09] Chair: than a doorknob, needed to come down, but I understand he doesn't. Yes, okay, so look, okay, you want me to look at other towns around to see if they've got something? Sure, okay, you deal with the state guy, check, yes, okay, in towns to see if like Waldenboro or some of these elements might have something, the only [1:19:34] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Forrester, I know, moved to Canada, so he's not going to do me much good here. No, he's not. No. [1:19:40] Chair: Smart fellow. Yeah, he is. Okay, so we'll put this one on hold for now, and we'll do a little more research. I brought out TR3. Just because you need to start looking at it. And we need to start looking at R1. The committed and the conditional use is in R1. TR3 is going to be a monster. We've come to the decision that TR3 needs to be moved because where TR3 currently is, which is supposed to be the transitional residential district, is where the state has mandated that affordable housing and the majority of all residential housing in the future should be. [1:20:27] Planning Board Member: So that's kind of where all those LDs were targeted in that one area? [1:20:31] Chair: Yes, the old area. And RTR 3. [1:20:36] Planning Board Member: It's pretty small, isn't it? It's very small. [1:20:39] Chair: And if you look at it, the majority of it is wet. Oh, okay. And I know they were trying to put in housing, affordable housing. This was, I think, a year and a half, [1:20:51] Planning Board Member: two years ago. Weren't there two projects on one on either side of what is that road that goes up to the sewer plant? [1:20:58] Chair: Clark. Yeah, we're doing that. [1:21:00] Speaker D (unidentified): But that's what TR-3 is. It's not TR-3. It goes on wet areas? [1:21:05] Chair: No. No. Those are R-3, and so we kind of said, well... [1:21:09] Planning Board Member: I thought that was where TR-3 was, up by the sewer plant. [1:21:13] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Right, or out, like, above Beechwood? It's just... They're going out. [1:21:17] Chair: Okay. Yeah, show them on the map. We have a big map over there. Okay. Because Ashland Drive is in TR-3. [1:21:27] Planning Board Member: I thought it was over in this area. [1:21:34] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Up higher too, there's there's more that goes up like right around there. Yeah. Oh, okay. So like Lawrence Brooks owns a bunch of that land up there. Well, I thought there were some special consideration by the sewer treatment plant for we tried and we couldn't get TR3 because it [1:21:53] Chair: It wasn't connected anyway. [1:21:55] Planning Board Member: But those affordable housing projects in there are? We put them in the R3. So then that's part of what R3 will allow? That is R3. Okay. Yes. [1:22:05] Chair: But the fact that the state wants us to put it in the transitional, and we can't put it in the transitional, [1:22:15] Speaker D (unidentified): means we need to kind of move them somehow. [1:22:21] Chair: I don't know who came up with the TR-3 when they did, but it was before I came up. [1:22:25] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: It feels like a rock and a hard place because there's not a lot of places to be developed. [1:22:30] Planning Board Member: No. But there's no, like you say, there's no sewable water out there. No, that's right. There's nothing. So it's not a good place to develop them. Well, no. [1:22:38] Chair: If you've got some guy that's doing affordable housing, he's got to build the building, and then he's got to put in wells and he's got to put in the roads and all that stuff. But to put in a septic system big enough for an apartment building and well deep enough for an apartment building is cost prohibitive. Because then at the other end, once he's got the building built, by law he can only rent it for a certain amount of money because it's affordable housing or workforce housing. And so that's why they're coming off of Clark Street where they have the water they have the sewer already there [1:23:16] Speaker D (unidentified): but you can't [1:23:18] Planning Board Member: apply the LD density shrinkages because it's not a [1:23:22] Chair: we're letting the attorney figure that out [1:23:26] Planning Board Member: which is what we ran into with the FAA market density requirements are specific for your growth areas [1:23:34] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: He bought a pickle because that is a real hard place to do anything thing with it at this point. Yeah, that's why he's got a lease sign out there. Yeah, and nobody's [1:23:46] Speaker D (unidentified): interested. So yeah, he bought a lemon. I just hope it's going to be like a little restaurant [1:23:52] Planning Board Member: or something in here. Well, he could put, I didn't even be okay with another ethnic market place. Go run down, get a gallon of milk and a pizza. [1:24:05] Speaker D (unidentified): Well, he could, he could do that. No, it's a conditional use. That's a neighborhood store [1:24:10] Planning Board Member: under conditional use. That's right. Yeah. Under conditional use. [1:24:14] Chair: He'd have to come in. Yep. But what he wanted to do with the apartments was conditional use, so he had to come in. So we try to make it, Bob, so at least we can control some of the crazy stuff going on. No, I understand. But not too controlling. That's what I understand. So whatever. So the TR-3, we've got to figure out now. Comprehensive plan dictates a lot about TR-3. [1:24:42] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: So we're, they already have it written down to ask the question about how strictly those two [1:24:49] Chair: need to be, you know why? Because we kind of worked around it by letting them in on Clark Street, which [1:24:55] Planning Board Member: is but you didn't reduce density requirements for what our ordinance allowed did you know we [1:25:03] Chair: We made it go with what the workforce housing requirements is what they have to meet. And Habitat for Humanity is meeting the affordable housing. The apartment building is the workforce housing. So they have their own little... [1:25:18] Planning Board Member: Well, they can do workforce and affordable without a big enough chunk of land. [1:25:23] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Yeah. They have big acreage. They do have. [1:25:28] Speaker D (unidentified): They just don't have the growth designation. Yeah, no nation, but if you're in town because the process a lot or quarter [1:25:36] Planning Board Member: acre lot, not much you can pack into that room. Oh well, I don't know, stop question. [1:25:41] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: I have to, that's where the growth piece comes in. Because of that growth piece, if you remember our conversation, shrinks it down if it's in a growth zone to 5,000 [1:25:52] Planning Board Member: square feet per dwelling unit, but still has, still adds up to have a bigger for [1:25:58] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: four units, you have a half, yeah, half acre, four units. So that's why we have the attorney doing [1:26:02] Chair: this whole, right, because the density piece is big in these LD 1829 and 2173. Yeah, I mean, that's the [1:26:10] Planning Board Member: kind of the most important thing for what, how it affects the neighborhood. Well, I know that. [1:26:16] Chair: That John was looking, John Fancy was looking at doing with another guy that was interested in doing affordable housing. You go down, it's Ice House Hill in the corner. And so he was looking at instead of, because the reason they haven't done the sewer specifically is that you would have to put such a million dollar structure at the end of it to help it back up. So he said, how about coming from the sort of treatment plant across and connect at Beachwood going across [1:26:49] Speaker D (unidentified): cross there. Go cross country instead of down. [1:26:52] Chair: And then the guy got looking at it and he realized it's all wet in there. So can you fill it enough so that you can build houses in there? I don't know. But he backed out. Because once they got looking at it, and Bob you've lived here long enough and you all have, that when you're driving around especially in the wintertime and you see these red twig dogwoods, then you know what? But it's wet. It's swampy. And so common sense is if I was a contractor, a builder, I'd drive around. If I saw that, I wouldn't even be interested in that at all. And yet they thought somehow they could do it. And then they walked it. And so we need to seriously consider what are we going to do about a growth area? Where can we put it that makes sense? [1:27:45] Planning Board Member: And where can you put it where you get buy-in from the people that are in there that say,, yeah, I want you to change my zoning so that... [1:27:53] Chair: But it's going to have enough land so you can put something in there. Growth is what we're looking for. And so they picked that going out in Beechwood Street because it's got acreage. But the other part of growth is it's supposed to have water and sewer. And it's supposed to be the area that the townspeople make a priority to put the water and sewer out there. But every time it's talked about, it's so many millions of dollars. And it gets more expensive every year they put it off. [1:28:24] Planning Board Member: It's not enough for me as a tax payer to fund the cost of infrastructure just so someone can build affordable housing. [1:28:32] Chair: So, I mean, Brooks put out Ashland Drive, if you remember back in 07. [1:28:38] Planning Board Member: Is there still water out there? No. [1:28:41] Chair: Each one of those houses has to have their own well. [1:28:43] Planning Board Member: The lots are, what, one to two acres? One. One acre. [1:28:48] Chair: And so people are buying double lots so they can place their houses where they want them and then not have their sewer drain into their well. So anyway, he did that development the same exact time, if you remember, that Wayne Seekins extended out Maurice Avenue. And that does have, and did the cul-de-sac, and he has I think 18, 19 lots. He kept two of them for himself. And he left one open so if he ever wanted to extend it, because he still has more land out there. But, because his had water and sewer, and he had a package deal with, I think it was Vogue's, it might have been Ralph's, but anyway one of those, a package deal for modular homes. His development was totally done even though it was 2008 big disaster financially this was done in a couple years maybe three years Brooks because they needed to have a well we needed to have septic and the cost was so high on his lots that they didn't even start developing that until about I don't know three years ago four years [1:29:56] Planning Board Member: ago which thought so you talk about national drive oh that was the brook [1:30:00] Chair: that's Brooks development they were approved exactly the same day and yet [1:30:05] Speaker D (unidentified): the difference being yeah the more infrastructure the more yeah they each of them had to put in a [1:30:12] Chair: row each of them had to put underground power each of them had to put in a sidewalk that went to nowhere but anyway they had to because that's just in the ordinance so they all had the same expenses up front except wayne actually had the expense of bringing the sewer lines and the water lines in all i'm saying is it makes a huge difference if you're trying to get to get growth in the town, you need to have a growth area that actually can grow. And I don't know how we're going to do that. [1:30:41] Planning Board Member: You can't force it, though. You've got to find some place that's right. [1:30:47] Chair: Well, we leave it where it is. [1:30:49] Planning Board Member: Because affordable means it's economical to be developed. [1:30:52] Chair: Right. It means a builder can afford to build it and recoup his cost. and so when I look at all those going there's no way that somebody can recoup their cost and keep [1:31:07] Speaker D (unidentified): it affordable by state regulations so unless we expand the utilities and who funds that so [1:31:19] Chair: anyway so three is the other monkey we have to look at and whether or not we want to even go there this [1:31:26] Planning Board Member: I see you've crossed off a bunch of multi-unit residential structures. [1:31:32] Chair: Because we already had apartment buildings. [1:31:34] Planning Board Member: Okay, so you're just refining the definitions at... [1:31:39] Chair: Yeah, we're not saying we can't do it. No, we're just saying that we looked at it and we said, wait a minute, what's a multi... and we looked at the definitions. [1:31:48] Speaker G (unidentified): That's an apartment. Basically the same definition. [1:31:51] Chair: And my other question is, in all the different areas where we have a conditional use manufactured mobile homes but manufactured homes have always been considered to be a single-family dwelling and mobile homes now by state law it's mandated anywhere you can put a single-family house you can put a mobile [1:32:11] Speaker D (unidentified): home so I think we need to take that out so there's no longer mobile home parks only oh no mobile home parks are still a separate thing but I'm saying that can't be the only you know if one of the big white houses on Main Street like the one at the end of Elm Street that used to be what was more mobile home right when [1:32:30] Chair: that when that falls all right it's nothing prevented watch the character change so that's why I'm really if we're doing an overlay I think you need to you really, do a historical building? [1:32:49] Planning Board Member: If you want to do a affordable housing, well, I won't say. There is a lot in town that would be a good place for affordable housing units. Where? Palmerston Academy. No. A politically charged property. [1:33:10] Chair: That's a historical building. [1:33:13] Planning Board Member: It's not registered. I'll check that. [1:33:17] Chair: Yeah, I have that at home. It's not registered. You checked the historical district? [1:33:23] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: I have that at home. Thomaston has a historical district. [1:33:26] Chair: Thomaston has got, it was 1972. Gosh, if I'd known you guys wanted to talk about that, I'd have brought that to you. [1:33:32] Planning Board Member: I just say that building is... [1:33:34] Chair: 1972, certain buildings are... [1:33:37] Planning Board Member:...a burden on the town to keep it going. [1:33:39] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: But it's not a district that we have in our ordinance. [1:33:42] Chair: No, that's the problem. For 10 years, I have talked to the historical society. [1:33:46] Speaker D (unidentified): You can walk to the school, you can walk. [1:33:47] Chair: For 10 years, I've said we'll get an overlay. And they have not been able to bring in anything. I think it's time we take it. [1:33:55] Speaker H (unidentified): And use the prison property. [1:33:56] Chair: Because then we could protect it. [1:33:58] Planning Board Member: Another politically charged... You're trying to stop politics. Yeah, two places. Prison property in the town. [1:34:06] Chair: We tried the prison property, but it's a park now, Bob. [1:34:11] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: I would say Watts Hall, too, but it's actually being utilized now. [1:34:14] Planning Board Member: I wouldn't say Watts Hall as much as Thomaston Academy. That's a nice big lot. [1:34:19] Chair: Okay, here's something for you then. [1:34:22] Planning Board Member: There's going to be some major extensions down there too. [1:34:25] Chair: If you're rid of Thomaston Academy, where do you put the library? [1:34:29] Planning Board Member: We can find a home for that. [1:34:31] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: Down the hall where the five rooms are. [1:34:35] Planning Board Member: They've expanded because there's been excess space there. What is actually needed? But finding a home for the library is a small obstacle. If you could develop that lot down there. [1:34:47] Chair: I would not agree with tearing down that building. I would have no problem with converting the building to houses. [1:34:54] Planning Board Member: Then it's not affordable because of the abatements, the structural issues, the paint. It's just sometimes tearing down a building. [1:35:04] Chair: That building was built in 1897. [1:35:07] Planning Board Member: But the amount of units you could put on that lot, then it becomes more affordable. [1:35:15] Speaker G (unidentified): Chain and I know that it's a political issue but I agree oh yes it would put [1:35:28] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: money on the tax rolls for the time of Thomas it would save the town money you [1:35:33] Speaker D (unidentified): can find a new home for the library of housing for people I mean it's purely [1:35:38] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: economical I know this historical building I have lots of lovely memories of that building myself. [1:35:46] Planning Board Member: I do. You went to school there? [1:35:49] Speaker G (unidentified): I didn't go to school in it, but I mean I went to college [1:35:53] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: classes in it. I didn't go to grade school in it. [1:35:57] Planning Board Member: When did it get closed? When did the Georgia Valley open up? We had dances there. [1:36:04] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: We did a lot of fun things there. [1:36:06] Chair: The first graduating class was 1964. Is that poor? I think, 1964 I think [1:36:15] Planning Board Member: yeah just to stir up a little hate and discontent [1:36:19] Speaker G (unidentified): and I was going to [1:36:22] Chair: thank you for helping my anyway is there any more we're going to discuss we're going on to it's 7 [1:36:31] Planning Board Member: so when you put out an agenda it's the highlighted areas [Speaker D (unidentified): it's the highlighted] so the LD stuff, you're still in the transition of getting a lawyer to weigh in on that [1:36:42] Chair: Oh, no, he's working on it. [1:36:43] Planning Board Member: Yeah, I'm saying, but that hasn't really happened. [1:36:46] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: We haven't started any of the actual work with him. I have a meeting with him on Friday by a telephone to discuss how we're going to get started, basically. But he's writing these for several other towns as well. He works for Drummond Woodson in Portland. And he's been to all of my conferences as one of the legal people that's giving updates. [1:37:13] Planning Board Member: So if I have the interest in what the new ordinances are going to be revised to, instead of coming here and taking up a lot of your time, when are those available for the public to look at them and then make comment? I know you have the public... [1:37:28] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: For the vote, March. [1:37:30] Planning Board Member: But you must have a public comment session. In March. On those, right? [1:37:34] Chair: Yeah so that's the public hearing ones I have to be done in March because then [1:37:41] Planning Board Member: Because if you have any comments for change or revisions, I just want to know. It said it coming here and taking up a lot of your time with my, I'm pretty [1:37:49] Chair: sure all in March, is it March? Yeah, March and April is when we will have the public hearings, but before that, Bob, you come, I'll keep an eye on that. Yeah. [1:38:00] Planning Board Member: Because I'm aware. Like I say, after the F&A process, I got up to speed kind of as best you can on the LDs to try to see what's out there. [1:38:12] Chair: And so we're not doing, we were looking, we were going to look at doing dimensions and all that stuff, but then because LD 1829 and 2173 have got dimensions and all that stuff within it, that was waiting until he does his piece. And then I still have questions on this affordability in mobile home parks and manufactured [Planning Board Member: housing communities] Do we even need to worry about that? [1:38:37] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: I think it's all going to be looped into that. [1:38:40] Chair: I think that's all that's LD 2549 you've got a note to ask him and then site location [1:38:49] Speaker G (unidentified): development laws. [1:38:50] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: I wrote that down. [1:38:51] Planning Board Member: Why doesn't the state with all these LDs just put out here it is, put these in here, if you want to go less restrictive you can, but this is the minimum, meet these and you meet state law? [1:39:06] Chair: I feel bad for the towns, the little small unincorporated ones where you have a total population [1:39:10] Speaker G (unidentified): of like 50 or 60 people [1:39:12] Chair: and they're required to have these and they don't even have them. [1:39:15] Speaker D (unidentified): They don't even have code ups. [1:39:17] Chair: They don't have code ups, they don't have any of that, and yet by July 1st [1:39:24] Speaker D (unidentified): of 2027 we have to have that all in the ordinance, but the town does have ordinances per se, don't [1:39:29] Planning Board Member: they follow the is near, they just have to follow the unorganized territories, don't they, law state [1:39:35] Town Planner / Zoning Administrator: it's just all straight law period. The purpose of ordinances is to give towns the majority rule, basically the home rule, so yeah, the state laws are always the fallback for those small places. Yeah, and they have their own laws anyway, we all know that's true. [1:39:52] Speaker D (unidentified): Is that who puts out ordinances per se? Okay, well, single-sided, we've got some [1:40:15] Chair: some things that we'll look into before next time. Recall enough, that's quarter seven, I'm supposed to be on another meeting at 7, but we just hear from them, have all the time.