South Berwick Council Advances Town Hall Sign, Data Center Moratorium

[26:22] Council Chair (presiding officer): Comment on something that is not on the agenda. Seeing that we'll move on from that, we will move [26:31] Town Manager: on to the town energy's report. Okay, in the highway department they completed it over on Old Fields [26:38] Public Works/Highway Director: Road. Upper Emory's Bridge Road was paved and the driveways were racked built. Electrical lines were put in the ground on the front lawn of the town hall. The police department, they had one arrest, seven accidents, 89 traffic stops. Pumpkin man went very well, no injuries or incidents during the race. Training for their new software starts this week and the behavioral health liaison was on vacation, but during the four days she did work helped 60 people. The fire department in the last two weeks has had 35 calls, which brings them to 506 year to date, and two of those were occurrences were overlapping. Firefighters had an opportunity to conduct training on an acquired structure on Mates Ponds Road. Previous did a hands-on search, hose line, ladder and ventilation training before for conducting the live fire training burns, which went well into the evening. Fire prevention week is October 4th through the time. Code enforcement in the last two weeks had 12 building permits, for plumbing permits, five certificates of occupancy, and Allen went to a training which he said was excellent on internal thought, sorry, planning and economic development. We have an RFP that will be going out this week for small area planning. The amendment to the comp plan has been sent to the state and actually this afternoon we got an email back but that was approved, so thank you Jeff. Continuing talks with Southern Maine Planning on a railroad app project and the transfer station. The hazardous waste day this past Saturday was a big success. Our town actually had the most participation than the other two towns. Some material that dropped there could have been brought to the transfer station, but overall huge success at. At the library in the last two weeks there was 1,148 visitors and they are starting a new vinyl music collection. They'll be starting off with 30 to 35 records. They'll also be circulating to portable record players so that people who don't own their own will still be able to enjoy this collection. Recreation, they had 240 children sign up for the soccer program this year. The seniors, September is National Lobster Month and the seniors will be celebrating with a lobster roll luncheon this week. Assessing has begun on the annual municipal evaluation report for the state and the office has received two abatement requests for the fiscal 27 tax year. In the town clerk's office they did 237 motor vehicle transactions nine final record transactions in the last two weeks and we also want to note that we have 22 openings for various boards and committees for anyone who is interested in being more involved in the town. Absentee voting ballots will are expected to arrive at the town hall the first week in October and the absentee voting box will be available as it always has been near the rear entrance. Voting day is November 3rd at Marshwood High School from 8 a.m until 8 p.m and we are actively recruiting election workers so please if you're interested come talk to Monique at the town hall or go to our website and sign up there. I'm also on October 28th from 5 to 7 p.m there's voter registration event going on. The clerk's office is going to stay open late for you to register to vote or if you have any questions about collection debt finance HR the audit is in full swing this week. Peter Hall is stationed in the trailer working with me on the field work portion of the audit. Admin I have worked with Chief Hamill and EMS fire union representative to come to an agreement that will be presented to the town council at our next meeting with Jeff Grubaker Stephanie Carter and Reagan Young from Southern Main Planning to see how they can be of more assistance to the town in the upcoming year and the town hall will be closed on Wednesday October 7th through Monday October 12th. Wednesday will be the actual move date. Thursday we will have I.T on site to make sure that everyone's printers copiers computers and everyone is back up and running and track up the network that Thursday we will also be heading over the sewer lines so we will have a point in time on that Thursday where we will have no water and no batteries but we have new arrangements for that for staff and then Monday will be Monday October 12th will be closed for Indigenous People Day. We will have a few minor items that will need to be done after the move on the phase one project and Andy will speak more to that when he puts up and speaks. We are looking forward to everybody visiting us in our new spaces and please note that the staff in the trailers will be there until the job is complete which is administration finance and HR. All the other departments will be open in their new spaces on [31:12] Town Manager: the first floor and [Maggie Raymond: that's like so] you're going to spend winter in your trailer. I am a good thing it's got the heat. Yeah yes and a flat roof. All right thanks. Anybody have any questions for the [31:29] Council Chair (presiding officer): town manager? Seeing none we will move on to approval of the following minutes. First up is the town council meeting minutes from September 8th 2026. I'll make a motion to sign me or [31:43] Councilor: approve the meeting minutes from September 8th 2026 as written. Second. Bring a motion in the [31:49] Council Chair (presiding officer): second. Any conversation on that? Hearing none. Sam? Hi. Paul? Hi. Joel? Hi. Mallory? Hi. I also. That motion passes zero. Moving down to town council special meeting from September 10th 2026. [32:06] Councilor: The motion that we sign our minutes from town council special meetings on September 10th 2026 [32:14] Council Chair (presiding officer): I have a motion and a second. Any discussion on that? Hearing none, Sam? Aye. Paul? Aye. Joel? Aye. Valerie? Aye. And vote aye also. That motion passes 5-0. Last one up is the Town Council Listening Session from September 15, 2026. [32:33] Councilor: Make a motion that we adopt our meeting minutes for the Town Council Listening Session on September 15, 2026 is written. [32:42] Council Chair (presiding officer): Motion in a second. Any discussion? Hearing none. Sam? Hi. Paul? Hi. Joel? Hi. Valerie? Hi. I will abstain from that. I was not at the listening session. So that motion passes or with one abstention. Moving on from there we will go down to the treasurer's farm. Sorry we're going out with a bang. This is the biggest one I've ever seen. I have a motion to sign the treasurer's warrant dated 9 18 2026 in the amount of three million two hundred and seven thousand five hundred fifty eight dollars and seventy nine. He said second. I have a motion and a second. Any [33:26] Councilor: discussion on this one? This one is so large because it includes our monthly payment to the school district which is roughly nine hundred thousand dollars and also around a nine hundred thousand dollar payment to Charters Brothers who's completing construction on the town hall project [33:42] Town Manager: in bumping that's too long several times. All [33:49] Council Chair (presiding officer): right. Early discussion on this one we'll move to a vote. Sam? Hi. Paul? Hi. Joel? All right. Valerie? I vote and I also. That multiple from past since five zero. All right reports and presentations. We have a presentation from Dovetail coming up. Daddy? Yep. Hi [34:15] Andy Jackson, Dovetail Consulting: Andy Jackson, Dovetail Consulting, working on the Town Hall renovation project with the team. So about every two months I come and give a report to the town about the status of the project. Construction is ongoing. We are looking forward to the next immediate milestone of the completion of phase one, the lowest level of the building. That's scheduled for October 7th, as Jennifer described, about a five-day move-in period. The full completion of the project is scheduled for February 9th, 2027. The this puts us We've got a lot of work to do. You know, Very close to moving the staff back into the spaces that they need to occupy. Charter Brothers. Today sent us a list of. Open work that they're tracking. That is expected to go beyond October 7th and phase one. Including some work in the elevator, some pump. Some door and window installations that won't be done by the seven. Some work related to keypad access, some interior wood baseboards and painting. We've been told that these won't affect any of the operations or any of the public facing functions of Town Hall, but we're obviously looking at it very closely and we'll work with them to make sure that any impacts are avoided or minimized. Charter Brothers just submitted requisition number 10, which I think is in this warrant. That was $912,000, which I think is by far the largest one we've seen so far. So their spending is definitely ramping up. We had enjoyed the benefits of their relatively slow benefit or relatively slow billing throughout the life of the project, because it allowed us to hold the bond proceeds and the bond interest longer than expected. That billing puts them at 51% bill today, even though they're more than halfway done with the project. So I sent some financial statements last week, which I'm sure are somewhere in the packet, but I usually kind of focus everybody's attention on the status of the various contingency pots. So we track two major pots here, the contingency that the owner has from the undesignated fund and then Charter Brothers has been holding their own contingency that they use to cover the bumps in the road on their side. So, far we've had a total of 39 substantive change requests. I say substantive because there are another 20 or so that were either voided or were $0 change requests just used to document a change in scope. But of the 39 substantive ones, 29 have Charter Brothers has assigned to their own contingency, so roughly three-quarters of the change requests they've been absorbing with their contingency. And then 10 have hit the owner contingency, but of the 10, several of those were credits. So really by far the biggest one was the ProAV, we call it the ProAV because that's the name of the vendor. It was upgrades to the whole audio visual system in the town hall, which was assigned to be paid for by bond interest proceeds. So that did not hit owner contingency. But anyway, to sort of cut to the bottom line, Charter Brothers has absorbed about $450,000 worth of cost changes on their side, leaving them with about $200,000 left in their contingency. As of the date of my report the other day, I showed a balance on the owner contingency of $479,000. We started at $750,000, drawn down to $479,000. Most of that was soft cost changes because we had to hire extra consultants since then we got the good news that the long anticipated landscaping credit that was ordered on several months ago so basically the team realized that the charter brothers scope included a lot of landscaping and site work that was either optional or could be performed by the department of public works. And so we dug into the scope, and we realized that some of the work wasn't totally necessary. Some of it could be performed by the public works, and we went back to charter brothers and said, Okay, can you take all this landscaping site work out of your scope? That was authorized. I want to say in maybe May or June it's been a lot of back and forth trying to figure out all the details. But we finally got all that back, and it resulted in a $99,000 credit back to the owner. We had. I think I had kind of verbally announced at one point that we expected maybe $70,000 back. Although in our in our record keeping we had not accounted for anything yet, but we hadn't seen the number. So this is going to go straight back to the owner contingency. So as of today, I believe the balance in the owner contingency would be $578,000. dollars. So I don't know what that is as a percentage, but maybe 70 percent of the total still kind of in the till there. Yeah, so this is the Charter Brothers contingency log on the screen there. They have a balance of right around $200,000 left in their contingency fund. Okay, so we've got a fair amount of cushion, fingers crossed, as we, you know, approach them stages of the file day. Those are the sort of highlights of the project right now. [39:56] Speaker G (unidentified): Happy to answer any questions about the overall update, the gc, the extended gcs. Is that one hundred twenty six thousand dollars valid for the two nines on completion date? [40:16] Andy Jackson, Dovetail Consulting: Dave. So the 126 was based on, so what this is, extended general conditions, when they realize that the schedule was going to be longer than expected. Their general conditions is their overhead to run the project, staff costs. You know, their own mileage, and just all their overhead. If you, if you do the math, that corresponds to about a 7 week overrun in the federal. It's since been dialed back about 5 weeks, so that number is probably conservative. And if you go up to the top of this report, we actually had another bit of good news. Yesterday or the day before, that change request number one, which was projected to draw about $80,000 from their contingency. Once they finished all the buyouts, that number went to about $35,000 drop in their contingency. So in other words, their contingency is going to go back up by about 45 000, so the math is right once that one gets finalized. [41:20] Council Chair (presiding officer): Anybody else? Thank you, come back and you give us good news. [41:28] Public Works/Highway Director: Keep Andy up there for the next agenda item, which is the most contingency files that we're. [41:33] Andy Jackson, Dovetail Consulting: Asking, we can, you're in the spotlight. Okay, yeah, so the next item is, we had, in just crossing through all the work, there are three items that we're requesting to draw from the contingency, we meaning the project team. So this was sent in an email that I think ended up in the packet, I would hope so. There's a description of everything, but just the headlines would be the public works site work that I described, that is more, way more than offset by the credit we're getting back from Carter brothers. That's $25,000, so most of that is actually vendor costs for materials, the, so that's $25,000. Okay, what's that? Oh, we have to add the sewer lines. Oh, okay, all right, so the actual request is 35. Yeah, okay, all right, about 10 000 of that is to replace the sewer. Okay, so going from 25 to 35, and that is to avoid any problems with the sewer. We got a kind of a competing quote from charter brothers that was more to do reline the sewer pipe, that was actually more, so Jay and the public works are thinking let's. Just replace it, okay? So 35 for that, the there it is, the front yard sign, 30,000. This, I know the renovation committee has seen the designs. I assume that they ended up in the packet, but this is the projected cost for the sign to go in the in the in the front yard. And then the final part of the request is our cost, Dovetail Consulting, as owner's reps for the project. We were originally authorized for a hundred thousand dollars. We are based on our current spending, we're projected to reach that hundred thousand dollar mark by the end of the November period. And so if you would like us to stay on the project through February, or I think we budgeted through March basically. So if you take our most recent spending, we had higher monthly costs at the beginning because there was a lot going on, but things have settled down and our billing is tapering off. If you take our most recent average times the next four months, that's thirty two thousand dollars. So if you had thirty five thirty, we ended up at a ninety seven thousand dollar request here. Just as a reminder, we just got a ninety nine thousand dollar credit back from Trucker Brothers that we had not previously Pennsylvania, so it's [44:19] Council Chair (presiding officer): essentially a wash. [44:22] Councilor: And just as a reminder, our current balance in that 100 contingency is around 578,000. Yeah, of the 750 they originally thought authorization and [44:35] Speaker H (unidentified): they have how much for everyone though? [44:39] Andy Jackson, Dovetail Consulting: Our report says 203,000, but they just shared some good news that they found another 40,000 of savings versus what they had projected on all their buyouts. So they're somewhere in the range of 240,000. Is there [44:56] Speaker G (unidentified): a design associated with the front lawn like there was in the original design, a design like our landscape design? Yes, I can send them to you. Yeah, the architects [45:09] Andy Jackson, Dovetail Consulting: generated a sketch of all the proposed work. Yeah, some of it's assigned to public works charter. The Charter Brothers is keeping some bits and pieces. If you have any detailed questions about that design, I would refer them to Forrest because he's been tracking that. Question in the back? Oh, sorry. Jennifer probably knows off the top of her head, too. [45:29] Speaker G (unidentified): And then the pavement patching, I assume that will get reconciled with the allowance that they have, that Charter Brothers has in their contract with pavement patching. [45:39] Andy Jackson, Dovetail Consulting: They have, they had a line in their schedule values for pavement patching, yeah, and we are kind of holding on the recommendation of how much pavement work to do because it's going to be in the spring anyway when the pavement plants open and the project will be pretty much done. So we're going to see how much cushion we're still sitting on at that time before we make an [46:02] Town Manager: official recommendation about pavement scope, and they did give us a credit Sam on what [46:07] Public Works/Highway Director: they were going to pay because work department, public works is going to do it, so they're giving us credit and then in turn it's going to put it in that 35 000 that we need, okay, so that's still [46:18] Speaker G (unidentified): showing in the allow, it's one of the, one of the contract allowances [46:23] Town Manager: eleven thousand five hundred eight dollars, yeah, that's the amount we're going to be credited [46:29] Speaker G (unidentified): one more sheet i think in the case before that sheet, yeah right there it [46:38] Andy Jackson, Dovetail Consulting: yeah so if they don't, if they don't do that work we just get credit back for it [46:49] Town Manager: oh [46:52] Council Chair (presiding officer): yes you do and state your address [46:58] Town Manager: the rules must be [47:01] Melissa Costello, public commenter (Boyd's Corner Road): followed Melissa Costello for its corner road I just have a couple of questions about the electronic message center with the costs that are listed here because there is another thing later on the agenda about the sign design and stuff like that. So it says they're looking for $30,000 for the top town hall sign. But in a little bit of the paperwork it says the $30,000 is just for the installation. So is the $30,000 that we're asking for the electronic message center, is that for the sign, the installation, just the sign. Like I'm not like this $30,000 like I'm not sure where and where we haven't even really kind of it like decided on the sign. I'm not sure if we should even be asking the money first. But so I just think use them like $30,000 like what exactly does that cover with the sign that includes the sign, the base and the installation. [48:03] Public Works/Highway Director: legislation that would be everything so [48:08] Melissa Costello, public commenter (Boyd's Corner Road): so going by like the rendering that was that's later and [48:12] Public Works/Highway Director: that would be all of that done and assigned installation virtual but just like that [48:19] Town Manager: thank you [48:32] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): chair Maggie Raymond from Sewell road i'm just curious what kind of messaging is going [48:37] Public Works/Highway Director: to be on the sign i would see it to be when council meetings are planning board meetings any special events it would be to keep the public more informed another way to give more information [48:49] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): to the public okay about town business and did that go out to bid or is that a subcontract of [48:59] Public Works/Highway Director: Charter brokers, we have gotten multiple bids. Boris has got multiple bids. The first ones were much more expensive than this sign. This is the same sign company that Marshall funds are. [49:13] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): And does that, I noticed that you're talking later about approval from the revitalization committee. Does it also have to be approved by the historic. [49:27] Public Works/Highway Director: Fiscal commission? It does not. We are the first building outside of the historic. [49:33] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): So I just, you have been tracking the contingency fund on your web page, which I appreciate. And so now with this we from Charter Brothers will be. Will that be reflected on the web page that you have this credit, and then you're now you're taking out the 97. So you took 0.99 and then taken out 97. It's actually coming up, correct me if I'm wrong. [50:01] Public Works/Highway Director: But it's coming off the maximum gross price of the contract with Charters Brothers. So it's going, it's going to reduce the amount of the contract and we have to pay the Charters. Okay, it's not going into our contingency. So it's coming off here, going up here, net effect zero, if that makes sense. [50:16] Councilor: But everything will be, all the documents will be updated with yes those changes. Okay. [50:22] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): I just have one more question, the town hall renovation, and that is since April you've been in negotiations with Oak Point, and I'm just wondering first, can you confirm that you are asking them for fifty. [50:40] Public Works/Highway Director: Thousand dollars? Yes we are, and it is in the hands of Oak Point to be signed, the lawyers. [50:46] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): Have agreed. Okay, and great, and that money will then go where? That will be a credit against. [50:54] Public Works/Highway Director: The contract to open. Okay, great. Okay, great, thank you very much. Anybody else? All. [51:03] Speaker G (unidentified): Right, I'm just common in a similar mindset as President Costello there related to approving this money prior to not only that required ordinance change to allow the electronic message center, but also us not considering the next agenda. I don't know, I'm in favor of items A and C trying. [51:40] Councilor: To remember what was the, is there a timing challenge with the sign as far as, because I get what you're saying, like we're basically, what, just to bring everybody on board, we're talking right now about approving Annette Dubreuilio, WA State Assoc.: funds for a sign, but then later on in the event that we have an item to basically kind of address the fact that our local ordinances don't currently allow that kind of a sign in the area. So we're making Annette Dubreuilio, WA State Assoc.: your moves to hopefully change that. And so I can appreciate that it does feel a little bit backwards. But is there Annette Dubreuilio, WA State Assoc.: tiny challenges, sourcing challenges for this? Like if we were to wait and approve the sign funding later? What does that create for us? [52:21] Andy Jackson, Dovetail Consulting: So there is a, there is only time with the sign. I don't remember what it is, but that is the motivation for doing that. The motivation for doing this is a bash, it was twofold. The sign has a long time, so we want to start the process of getting it ordered. We did talk about making the approval of the sign contingent on the other order related to the ordnance. So I don't know if that's actually in the text of the order tonight or not, or if it's possible to put it in there, but that's we chatted about that about that on our side. So we're not, we're not trying to, you know, cram anything through the process here. The other motivation for doing this is that we just like to do the request as a match, just kind of for simplicity, but if it makes sense to wait [53:05] Speaker G (unidentified): sign away is it possible without like I don't know which [53:15] Speaker H (unidentified): one yeah but I mean you know there's [53:17] Speaker G (unidentified): also the sign before you make a motion to pay for her said time. Can we, she has also public hearings that didn't happen, never they were right, so [53:30] Council Chair (presiding officer): if you payable this the sign make [53:36] Speaker H (unidentified): a motion. Well can I have one other question? I mean there seems to be some question about what the sign will look like or the color, right? It's just the color of the font. I mean I don't mean to get too much into the weeds, but I mean would that impact the color and the font of the sign? And I don't know whether that will impact the cost of the seminar. Okay, all right, I'll [54:03] Council Chair (presiding officer): entertain a motion if you want to make [54:05] Speaker G (unidentified): move to approve, sorry, move to authorize the expenditure of up to 67 000 from the town hall renovation order contingency or funding's d-day item a dbw cyber and item c double consulting so [54:29] Council Chair (presiding officer): it's this extension right? A motion in a second. Any further discussion on that? So you're done Sam. Hi Paul. Hi Joel. I'm Mallory. Hi. I also motion passes 5-0. We will review the a sign that he littered, we'll be down from there. [54:58] Town Manager: Yeah I'm finished with the summer, the second one, yeah, 26 100. All right, we are down to 26. [55:06] Council Chair (presiding officer): 100 listening to follow-up discussions. Okay, bye. Thank you everybody, back soon. So, and town council had a listening session to go over some, just to hear from the public on budget, your concerns. So I will turn that over to you all that were here. Basically this was for discussion and direction as a birth rate, who wants to step up from the council and discuss this? [55:40] Councilor: My two senses, I feel like we have items on our agenda later directly related to this, but I feel like there's discussion to be had about, so I don't know if we want to have that discussion now or do we want to have that discussion when we talk about the action that's [55:53] Council Chair (presiding officer): on our agenda later. We can move on, there's no action needed for us, we can move on and wait until [56:00] Speaker G (unidentified): we get down to 26 148, 26 141. They're just coming to one. I just want to thank everyone that was here, that they came. I thought the conversation was great. One element that I just want to put out there as well as everyone, it's hard to talk about taxes, it's hard to talk about people's money. I think everyone 95 was on the best behavior and said really positive things and wanted to actually work towards an improvement. At the same time, if you're going to be frustrated, I'd rather be frustrated at us and not be frustrated at our account staff. The second thing with that is we do have some budget items we're doing some motions on a table today based on those conversations, but there's more that need to happen. I would kind of, because does the council think, I don't want to form another committee right now, I could leave a million, I would love to potentially like work internally to get information out there more to the voters, like we get like Jen gets a lot of information early with presentations, everything, and providing that information faster out of people. I'm happy to take that on. I don't know if that discussion to be in a later date, but it was an amazing conversation and I think people really want to move forward. I would like to keep that momentum going. Hey, [57:21] Speaker H (unidentified): I agree with that and I thank you Joel for pushing that listening session on us and I think it was, it was helpful and I do think, I mean, I saw the summary of it which is in front of me now and there's things that I agree with and there's things I'm vehemently opposed to, but you know, that's why, you know, that's what But it's all about so, I'd be happy to, and, you know, you and I talked over the weekend and my whole thought on this whole process is to keep that discussion going. Because I do, it's important and I think people were,. There were a number of good ideas and I don't, I want to see that. I want to see that continue. But, you know, I do think we can probably, you know. Discuss that with the later agenda items as well yeah [58:18] Councilor: I agree I'm keeping the momentum going the only thing I will say I will not be here when the time comes up but I do think it is really important that our new town manager be part of this process and I think it's incredibly important that we set up a situation where that manager is coming into South Berwick with some agency and some ability to make his make his or her own decisions that doesn't mean that they should just be able to run wild with the budget but I think it's important for us to Set up an environment that someone is going to want to join and I think including the manager in that because at the end of the day the manager really is the primary person that is responsible for our budget and we're making a lot I don't want to be making a lot of decisions in the absence of that person yeah [59:01] Speaker G (unidentified): I generally agree with that too and everything with TAB, Ryan Schuchard, Esq.: A golden ball said, and I think to keep that momentum and sort of refine this into more of a. TAB, Ryan Schuchard, Esq.: Policy state for left the better term that we can then communicate effectively to your time Andrew so we're not losing things in the on the way. [59:25] Councilor: I do also click on that kind of like informing educating people perspective I think it's a great opportunity that we have right now like we just had a good discussion this evening about the state legislation that then required us to have to take on following this additional stretch of road and you know there are a lot of things baked into the town council budget that none of us have any influence over and have no choice over and that's not meaning trying to like shirk responsibility it's just But I think that there is like some informing and educating people on what are the things that come before us and what are the things that we have that we actually have a choice to make on and what are other things that we just kind of have to take I think that's a good [1:00:05] Town Manager: Opportunity any [1:00:09] Speaker H (unidentified): Else you know and I do I think one thing we all agree on is that I'm fairly certain of this is additional like more opportunity for public input at the beginning of the process is crucial and I think that's something we can do you know right off the [1:00:28] Speaker G (unidentified): Bat so that [1:00:37] Council Chair (presiding officer): Again, in the very near future, let's go down to 26-115, data center moratorium on July 14th. The council we directed the staff to prepare a data center moratorium ordinance following legal review, public hearing. The planning board unanimously recommended adoption of the proposed ordinance that's below on September 16th, including the 10,000 square foot threshold for defining a data center. The proposed ordinance would establish a temporary 180-day moratorium retroactive to July 14th. We have no applications in right now for a data center anyway, so we're covered to allow the time to the town, the time to evaluate potential impacts and whether additional regulations are necessary. So the planning board has recommended the adoption of the moratorium. We do need to have public hearing first, so tonight is scheduled [1:01:32] Councilor: the public hearing. Can I ask a question of Jeff? I think maybe I just want to check in because now as soon as we adopted moratorium the clock starts taking 180 days. I'm sure that the planning board's got a plan in place to address the performance standards that are necessary, but I just wanted to ask the question on the record. [1:01:51] Andy Jackson, Dovetail Consulting: Yes, they're aware of that. Tony's here too. So, but yeah, since it starts July 14th, retroactively, coming up soon, January 14th. Yeah. [1:02:06] Speaker H (unidentified): Jeff, I'm sorry, can I ask Jeff a question? So you had a public hearing. Did the plane board have a public hearing? [1:02:13] Speaker J (unidentified): You had a public hearing in the process. [1:02:14] Speaker H (unidentified): Okay, all right. I'm sorry, I didn't see it. [1:02:16] Speaker J (unidentified): Was there any comment at that point? Yes, yeah, we had comments, and generally the people who were in attendance were in favor of the moratorium. Several of them said they'd like to see it, you know, just put in place now that we would, you know, not allow them period. But we explained that this process we have to actually look at the various ordinances, and you know what would be impacted by a data center, and then see what changes we may or may not need to make and then that would come forward again to the council is you know changing whatever ordinance so it's a process but the planning board is well aware i know hershey and jeff talked about getting this on our schedule and reworking you know a variety of ordinances not just driven by this but by other things as well [1:03:02] Andy Jackson, Dovetail Consulting: and i'll just add that on the planner the main planner listserv there's been some examples shared so other communities are sharing resources that makes things easier we don't have the right [1:03:17] Councilor: I will go ahead and make a motion that we schedule a public hearing for the temporary data center moratorium, scheduling that for Tuesday, October thirteenth ahead of our regular council meeting to be held at 6 30 sorry 6 [1:03:35] Council Chair (presiding officer): o'clock p.m here at community center second motion in the second any discussion hearing done sam hi paul hi joel hi mallory i vote i also motion passes five zero last thing in on business 26 131 sure we had an interview scheduled this evening our interviewee did not show up, so you are rescheduling to October 13th. October 13th. Okay, so we will move this along to October 13th. [1:04:11] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): At quarter of? [1:04:12] Council Chair (presiding officer): Yes, sorry, 5.45. We'll be down to new business, 26134, the Halloween parade. So basically every year we have to vote to allow the temporary road temporary closure of the road 71 norton street to 197 main street on october 30th beginning at 5 30 for the annual town parade fire chief review the route police chief review the route it's the same route we've done for ever so purely admin i will make the motion to allow the police department fire department to temporarily close the road on those dates at that time for the annual Halloween parade okay motion in a second any discussion hearing none Sam I fall I know I'm sorry I go by that so that motion passes 5-0 next up 26 135 Paul Street parking lot is there anybody in the public that would like to speak to that and think anybody want to talk [1:05:24] Speaker G (unidentified): on the parade all [1:05:27] Council Chair (presiding officer): right so paul street parking lot so we have two on this one correct [1:05:40] Councilor: which is the first one the first is related to the black party yep first [1:05:44] Council Chair (presiding officer): one's related to the block party so i will make a motion all right let's read through it september 8 2026 town council approved temporary closure proportion of paul street falsely parking lot from the annual block party so they're going to close that parking lot from october 23rd 2026 at noontime through october 25th 2026 at noontime so they can get it cleaned up set up and get everybody in there i take that back sorry so the staff is requesting now to extend that parking lot closure from the 22nd at 6 a.m. through October over 26 at 4 p.m. to accommodate events set up, take down, as well as parking lot striping and improvements. So that'll be nice, they're going to clean it up, striping, that will be extremely nice. It needs a little bit of work. It's going to be empty, it'd be a good time to do it, would be. I hope there's a couple of tow trucks available so they can make that park a lot empty. I have that line up, fantastic, maybe win some court would, so I will make that motion for that first. One to extend the closure from October 22nd 2026 at 6:00 a.m. through the October 26th at 4:00 p.m. Second motion in a second, any discussion. The second one is we would like us to schedule a public hearing on a proposed amendment to 130-17.1 off-street parking restrictions to allow the designation of 15-minute parking spaces within the municipal parking lots that currently permit two-hour parkings. [1:07:38] Speaker G (unidentified): That verbiage and series in there and I imagine it's just changing like to a two hour to also include 15 minute or I think it's the next page is the 17th party yeah but I think he said I didn't say yeah. [1:08:01] Public Works/Highway Director: He was just added to the bottom. [1:08:14] Speaker G (unidentified): So 17.137.1 is a table that has location of lot, hours you're allowed to park, and then description of use. So the change would be to add a row to that. [1:08:29] Speaker J (unidentified): There yeah. [1:08:34] Town Manager: Can we take [1:08:50] Councilor: the action to schedule the public hearing yeah. [1:08:54] Council Chair (presiding officer): I'm not sure I understand what we're trying turn a two-hour parking lot into a 15-minute parking lot. [1:08:59] Public Works/Highway Director: All right one space yeah oh just once in the parking lot to have a sign for 15 minutes. Yeah, I apologize that was not put in there. [1:09:11] Council Chair (presiding officer): No, it's all good. We just go schedule public hearing anyway. [1:09:14] Councilor: So I would suggest the second meeting on for business. We just put in a public hearing on the first. Sure. Yeah, I'll make a motion to schedule a public hearing on October 27th at 6 o'clock p.m. here at the community center to address amendments to chapter 130 17.1 off street parking restrictions to modify the Paul Street parking time limits so motion in a second. [1:09:45] Council Chair (presiding officer): Any discussion okay can we have the police chief here for that yeah I want to ask Ruger honestly how he's going to police that because he doesn't have the people now to do what they need to do but and I don't mind making an ordinance but we're making an ordinance to make an ordinance because we can't police our parking now we're going. [1:10:09] Public Works/Highway Director: To make it 15 minutes, and I think the convenience is to be able to have people run into the restaurants and pick up to the orders without having to go across the street. I love B Franks. [1:10:17] Council Chair (presiding officer): I like parking there, but I park in the street because the parking lot's always full, so I would love a 15 minute parking spot there, but I just don't know how we're going to enforce that, but it's okay. I just want to see rumor before I leave. Okay, fair enough. My last request. Okay. Yes. Okay, we have a motion and a second, right? We did not vote on that yet, so Sam. All right, Paul. Hi Joel. I vote aye also. That motion passes 5-0. All right, we're going to move down to signs of the town hall 26-136 if [1:10:59] Councilor: you want I can talk about. Yes please. So we've already discussed the sign this evening. The council acted to not, we opted to not authorize the thirty thousand dollars for agenda item 2657, kind of depending on this pending this discussion, so the sign is included. And really this is a question of the aesthetic of the sign, and we have a couple of options. We can either move forward with what is included in our packet prep done that mind and color scheme, or we have an opportunity to potentially sync up with the downtown revitalization committee who has been who has been working on wayfinding signage and branding, I guess I would call it. I'm just going to say my personal opinion, I think that this is a huge opportunity for us if we are, we are going to be committing to some kind of branding from a southburg perspective, this sign absolutely should have that on it, and so I just, I'm in favor of I us if that means we delay the sign longer while we wait for those decisions to be made. I think it's really important that we have a cohesive, sign signage throughout town. That's really just the decision to be made, right, and [1:12:15] Speaker H (unidentified): basically yes the way we wanted to look. Yeah, great. Well, I guess one question I have, and I don't know if anybody knows the answer, I mean, is the downtown revival, it sounds like you know, right? Pierce came up with, you know, colors and fonts for all the way is the downtown revitalization committee. I mean, do they just want to, do they not agree with that? [1:12:41] Public Works/Highway Director: Or do we just not agree with the sign? I think they like the sign that they are considering changing colors and fonts. [1:12:48] Speaker H (unidentified): I think for all for all the way finding. Yes. Okay. All right. Well, I mean, I think they should, you know, we should consider that if since they've been working on it. I mean, I just don't want to have one song in the sign change or way finding everything else, Peter. [1:13:02] Speaker G (unidentified): So my understanding is they're on the precipice of sending something to us with package or a packet of that stuff maybe tomorrow. [1:13:11] Town Manager: Tomorrow, yeah, they'll discuss it tomorrow, so we'll just see what they say. Okay, and any of their [1:13:18] Councilor: recommendations will come back to us like the council will be the ultimate approver of that anyway, so it'll come before the council. That is correct, and I was hoping that maybe we could do [1:13:25] Public Works/Highway Director: the other next meeting on October 13th, that gives that I had a few weeks in between with the meeting. I believe tomorrow evening, yeah. [1:13:33] Speaker G (unidentified): What's up? Sorry, I was looking ahead, I was expecting we were going [1:13:38] Melissa Costello, public commenter (Boyd's Corner Road): going to be good. Melissa Costello, Boyd's Corner Road. How much did we pay White Pierce for the wayfinding study? [1:13:45] Public Works/Highway Director: About $30,000, if I remember right. [1:13:47] Melissa Costello, public commenter (Boyd's Corner Road): And they suggested the font and the colors of this. So and now we have a committee that is not really on board. So now I'm just a little discouraged of hiring a professional committee or professional company to make decisions about colors and stuff like that. I like it. I think it's bold. I think it's classy. I think I'm just one opinion of 8,000 people that live here, but I just think something else to consider in the agenda. It says the lawn has been torn up for the electrical line and ready for the install of the base of the sign. So we obviously have to attend to this sooner rather than later, or we're going to fill in something in the lawn that's already been dug up and then have to re-dig it up to put it in. So I'm just disappointed of spending money for a research company to just kind of not dismiss what they're suggesting but [1:14:50] Speaker G (unidentified): that's what we're kind of doing. So that's not Mr. Sheriff. Yes, correct me if I'm wrong, the right first way finding study was more pertained to identifying locations and types of signage for different areas of town, and there was a conceptual sort of palette that was a bunch of them that were presented in the downtown evaluation Advisory Committee with that sort of thinned down what they wanted the concept to more look like than not, and then right now they have a local and you have to think sure you grab things on me, yeah, sort of taking that right Pierce concept [1:15:38] Andy Jackson, Dovetail Consulting: and finalizing into a full brand kit so to speak correct yeah and so in that respect the right The white pierce work is certainly still valuable because they did those recommended locations of signs. I already used to pass along to dot hey just so you know this is where we want side posts to go, because for their downtown traffic light project. And then the downtown committee did also select the style of different signs. And so that's still, you know, valid and still valuable. And so really what we're talking about here is just the color scheme, font and sign faces. So it's an opportunity to get value from both the right Pierce work and this other artist and kind of mull over which ones that downtown committee and the town council like the best. So I just certainly it's not something where we are, you know, throwing out all the work that right peers did work. We're definitely getting good value from it. They also put together a design standards guide which has really good technical information and specifications on sign fabrication that can be useful in passing along to any sign vendors we work with. So yeah, this is just a narrow focus on the color. Do we want to be a royal blue community? Do we want to be a navy blue community? Somebody told me we should be purple like Marshmallow, so today. So that plus font and iconography is another problem. [1:17:28] Speaker H (unidentified): We do bleed purple here because it's not purple. [1:17:34] Speaker J (unidentified): Question the design for the sign. I have a question about it and then perhaps need some feedback from Jeff. So the portion at the top that we're talking about color and, you know, the lettering and all that, how is that illuminated? Is it internally illuminated or are there exterior lights? And I ask that because the current town ordinance that we're talking about does not allow internally illuminated science. Now you can have the movement that, you know, the science that you could change the things or what have you, that's what we're talking about, you know, with the sign ordinance. But the current sign ordinance and Jeff, I don't think we talked about changing and allowing internal illumination as an option. So I don't know how this is designed. It looks [1:18:23] Public Works/Highway Director: Great, but I do, there's been no talk about lights internally. I believe just because it's a bright white, it's going to be big, close to the road, it'll be much bigger than the sign that we're current. Yeah, there's been no talk of lighting it in any way. It's just we'll have the electronic sign that will be lit up with the bright white above to recognize this tunnel. Okay. [1:18:43] Council Chair (presiding officer): All right, just want to put that up there. Great question though, thank you. Yes ma'am. [1:18:54] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): 79 Portland Street, South Berwick. I have a very petty question about the sign design. The town hall is red brick. I don't understand why they wouldn't tie the red brick into the stone underneath the sign. That's my only thing. In the committee meeting we had talked [1:19:18] Public Works/Highway Director: about, we have granite steps and we have the black windows. If well, you get, you could get the [1:19:27] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): granite on the, on the level, on the table that sits on top, but I think the red brick would tie it in with the, with the bigger picture. Just an opinion. [1:19:48] Council Chair (presiding officer): Now that I'm told about granite coping, gives me the proper word, thank you. Thank you. I agree with that. I think the brick would tie in, but my vote doesn't count here, so yeah, not yet. Thank [1:20:09] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): you, Maggie Raymond again. So I'm a little confused about when the planning board, I guess the planning board has to have a hearing to change an ordinance in order to allow that, but as Mr. Stello said, the lawn is torn up. So are you going [1:20:31] Council Chair (presiding officer): to schedule today that they would, planning board will schedule their own. We don't schedule it for the planning board, so the planning board generally scheduled it. Yeah, October 7th. Okay, as long as the hole's filled in by Christmas, so I don't fall and set off the Christmas lights out front. Well, home for the holidays, on the holidays may have to be [1:20:55] Public Works/Highway Director: elsewhere, and it might still be fenced in, but it's home, actually across the street, mom. Okay. [1:21:01] Speaker G (unidentified): All right, moving on. I'll move to direct the Downtown Revitalization Advisory Committee to have its recommendation regarding colors and fonts for weight finding science and returning those recommendations to the cap town council for consideration at the October 13th, 2026 meeting. Okay, motion, a second, any further. [1:21:24] Council Chair (presiding officer): Discussion on that hearing done. Sam? Hi. Paul? Hi. Joel? Valerie? Will? Die? Also motion passes five to zero. Moving down to 26-137, General Assistance maximum changes. So every year the state of Maine updates to general assistant maximum levels. We do this every year as a council. Municipalities are required to adopt these annual updates to remain consistent with the state GA because the general assistant dependencies are adopted by ordinance. The town council must hold a public hearing before considering adopting the updated maximum levels. So I am going to move to schedule a public hearing for, we already have, well, we've done that before, really, yeah, we're just do it back to back. Public hearing for October 13th, 2026. Following the second, the first one that we have at the Southburg Community Center. Motion and a second. Any further discussion? We have to vote for either way. So it's not usually not a lot of discussion on it. Sam? Aye. Paul? Aye. Joel? Aye. Mallory? Aye. I vote I also. Motion passes five zero on that one. 26-138, we have an application for the downtown revitalization committee from Wade. There we need to schedule a interview October 27th at the rate we're going, yes, yeah, I'll make a motion to schedule an [1:23:03] Councilor: interview with Wade Huebner on October 27th at 5:45 p.m. Second. Motion in the second. Any further [1:23:12] Council Chair (presiding officer): conversation? Hearing done. Joel? Hi. Mallory? Hi. Paul? I am. Sam? Hi. And also that motion passes 5-0. Moving up to 26-140. 139. Oh sorry, 139, Municipal Procurement Policy ad hoc committee application. [1:23:32] Councilor: I'll make a motion to schedule an interview with Robert Blaine for the Municipal Procurement Policy on October 27th at 5:30 p.m. That works. [1:23:43] Council Chair (presiding officer): I'll second. Any further discussion? Hearing none. Sam? Aye. Fault? [1:23:48] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): Aye. Dole? Aye. Mallory? Aye. I vote aye also. [1:23:52] Council Chair (presiding officer): Motion passes 5-0. later on now we're moving down to 26 140 fiscal year 20 27 20 28 budget percentage increase so just a background on this at the request of Council Martin the town council is being asked to consider establishing a two percent maximum increase in the municipal operating budget compared to the adopted fiscal year 26 27 budget is budget guidance for staff during the upcoming the upcoming budget process. Proposed guidance is intended to encourage efficiencies, prioritization of essential services, exploration of alternative funding opportunities. Exceptions may be considered for legally mandated expenditures, public safety needs, or other extraordinary circumstances that determine the Council. I [1:24:46] Speaker G (unidentified): think this is something that I'm interested in something along these lines. I think it's something that should be drafted into an official resolution to the Council, just to add some more details, I guess, just to percentage. I'm happy to work with Joel or whoever to draft that if there's, you know, sufficient interest in the idea in general. what needs to be added i just think just for example this is this notes that it's the operating budget i think we should address all aspects of the budget including that capital improvements budget and there's since it does affect the overall valuation that's there's that's contact [1:25:42] Town Manager: there's i [1:25:46] Speaker H (unidentified): would yeah i mean i 'm interested in this as well i think the two percent number i'm I'm not sure where that came from. And I think Phil can speak to that. I think it's a number. I do think we need to hear from the staff and Jen. And Jen said something today about health insurance increases, which are going to be substantial. So I think before putting a number in there, which will sort of guide our fiscal policy until basically until 2028 I think we need some more information and you know I agree with Sam I mean I think you know we have other aspects of our budget other than you know there's TIF money or is that going to be included in there you know what does that mean is it you know I guess my biggest question is it is it a realistic number and in saying that I do think we need to provide guidance to the staff and to enter the. To either our interim town manager or the incoming town manager. about, you know, to, let them understand that it is, we, do need to do some bell tech in here for sure. I do have a concern, which I think Mallory talked about before. before about an incoming town manager and you know putting you know you know a real short leash on his ability to try to find or something sorry that yes I'm sorry about being able to you know crack the budget that means that means the town but I do think that they need to know that there are there is going to be some sort of Target that we can meet so I also [1:27:49] Council Chair (presiding officer): Have a couple concerns. One, I don't think you need a formal anything, formal that blocks them in. It's a it's working with town manager as a council, like we always have. We've had flat budgets since I've sat here. Last year went up, we knew why last year went up, but we've had traditionally flat budgets since I've been here for 12 years. I think setting that two percent is going to be extremely tough. Everything's going up, we keep saying it, but I know health insurance is going up, every other part it's going up so well you the town council can work with the town manager you're trying to keep it at whatever level. I'm concerned with setting it at two percent, I'm concerned with the wording in here, even though it's not, but the town manager department heads are directed to prepare. We don't direct department heads, we've been over this numerous times, we do not direct department ends. We can tell the town manager or the interim town manager we'd like you to prepare us a budget at two percent, but our charter states that the town manager prepares a budget and presents it to the council. So we have to be very careful with how we craft this so we don't block everybody's hands and we're not directing people that we can't direct. We need to cut the budget and I like where I get where Joel put it, he put a lot of thought into this, that the municipal operating budget it pretty much is what it is right. We have the staff we have, we have so insurance is going to be what it's going to be for 80 people no matter what it goes up, we have to pay insurance, we have to pay lights, we have to pay the rest. I again a lot of thought was put into this, just don't like locking in at two percent because I don't know if that's realistic. And if you get into December, January and Jan's not there, what are you gonna do from there? Are you gonna come back and make another, are you going to change that? And that's the problem, if we lock it in now we hold her to it, she tries to do that budget, finds out she can't, she's wasted an awful lot of time. So I think that's where that give and take, I don't know if anything official has to be done for Jen to understand you guys want the flattest budget or we all those taxpayers we want the flattest budget with the least increase. Again, I don't think an official notion is required for [1:30:20] Public Works/Highway Director: that, but that's just my two cents. At the end of the day the council can cut anything that they want. Let's turn it over to the council, it's your decision, whatever you want, I would I [1:30:32] Councilor: am in agreement with what's been said i think that this is absolutely the approach that we need to take going forward is by coming to a point where we say to the top manager we want to be working within this box i do think it is too soon and i do not want to be i mean the reality is any vote i make this evening is not going to be i'm not going to be dealing with consequences of the consequences of that because i will not be here but i do not want to set the council up to make a promise to taxpayers they can't come through on. And I mean, Jen gave us some estimates today, and just to inform the public, the staff had reached out to just kind of wanting to understand, like, what are we expecting from a health care perspective? I mean, the school budget this past year pretty much all of their increase, 8.7 percent, was related to health insurance costs. And so the estimates that we got today, which again are very much estimates, we're about $187,000 increase for our current staff. That right there, that's a 1% increase over last year, just including that. And then we have the big fat elephant in the room, which is diesel and gas and oil prices that we know are not doing anything but going up. And so as much as I wish that I could sit here and say, I can confidently say we can have no more than a 2% increase for this next budget cycle, I'm not interested in people making promises that I can't come through on. And unfortunately, we live in a world where your average person is not paying such close attention to what we do here. And if there's some news article that goes out that says the town said no more than 2% increase, your average person is not gonna pay attention to the details behind that. And they're not gonna understand why we couldn't get there. They are just going to see it as the town council [1:32:10] Public Works/Highway Director: said they were gonna do this and they didn't. [1:32:12] Councilor: And I would much prefer to be in a situation We're being, we're very realistic and real with people about what the decisions were actually facing. I agree very much with what Paul said about an incoming town manager. I think it was very, important that person, as part of our interview process, very clearly understand that we're in a tight budget situation. They should probably already know that if they're an experienced town manager, because every community in Maine is dealing with the same problem. I think that I'm quite confident that the staff is already very much aware that they have to pinch pennies this year. And I agree that I don't think we need to take any formal action on that, and I hesitate to take any formal action on it. For the very reason I said of that feels like a promise to taxpayers and a commitment that we're going to do that, and I don't feel like we have enough information right now to be able to confidently say we can give it to two percent increase. I wish I wish I could say differently, but that is not what we're working [1:33:08] Council Chair (presiding officer): with right now unfortunately. Yeah, but I'm going to go back and forth here tonight even though it's out of order, but the public wouldn't know what to ask questions to until they heard something from [1:33:18] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): us. So Tamra Steinhauer, 19 Hill Drive. I just I heard Jen say well the town council can You know, both at some point I agree with trying to limit a percentage and work with a nine. That's a great idea. At some point there has to everybody needs to decide on what the new process is going to be, because if it's again up to town council to determine gay or may, then at what point do residents have any input whatsoever. [1:33:52] Town Manager: However, so I'm just thank you. [1:34:01] Speaker G (unidentified): Okay, so fully open to Sam's idea about adding more to it. Obviously, like we have to keep mine all that like that makes perfect sense to me. I feel like this is, I think the sixth meeting that we keep bringing up. We can't do anything until we get a new town manager, and I'll say I'm kind of sick of it. Like we were elected to keep moving things forward. Jen's doing a good job as interim town manager. We just we just got the ad put out I think last Friday. If we are going to hire somebody and we are so fragile and afraid that anything we decide as a council of five is going to scare them away, they weren't going to last anyways. I everyone yes everyone knows everything's everything's going up. Health insurance is up. We've done that was not us. If you have an issue with that go to Washington. Like that's that is what it is. Things are going to be Increasing, I understand we cannot adapt for anything in the future, but this is something that we, I think, kind of owe the taxpayers, is to charge the town manager with communicating now with the department heads to say whatever you bring me needs to be a two percent increase from last year, and then it puts the department heads in charge to do some creative accounting and to figure out what they could potentially do. I'm even, I'm open to going to three percent to match, to match to Hola like, but again, this doesn't impact health insurance, doesn't impact a lot of like things that are just, we can't do anything about, but I think it shows that we're taking the right steps forward to try to contain what I think everyone in the town but kind of grant appeals has gotten a little bit of out like out of out [1:35:38] Public Works/Highway Director: of our hands. Yeah, cover it up. Yeah, the police union budget has a seven percent salary increase [1:35:46] Speaker G (unidentified): as well, so just putting them, so I guess that's, that's where I'm sort of saying those type of details I think can be flushed out, you know, and those are that type of stuff, but you know, it can, it can be two percent of this, these budget items, you know what I mean, that we, that we do have control over. I mean, we do, we do fund our reserve accounts every year with more than what the current obligations are. Maybe there's, you know, for a year we aren't able to do that because we're trying to help stabilize. So I think those details are what I was referring to in terms of drafting something and bringing something with more detail forward so there's more understanding and it's what we're all talking about. I think that's more attainable for the staff. [1:36:47] Council Chair (presiding officer): Right, yeah, having what you're, what you're looking for, because again, we can't control what we can't control. There are certain budget items, like when we moved the twenty thousand dollars for the, for the transfer station last year, right, it didn't really amount to anything in anybody's tax bill, but there was twenty thousand dollars sitting there that was just sitting there. On your recommendation, we moved it over and we took that off the operating cost bill, so there is that in there, but I think you're right, I think you need that, because just saying two percent on the budget, if it's on the budget we're getting from the town, it doesn't work with the limited amount of information you're looking for, so I think you're right, I [1:37:26] Speaker H (unidentified): Think you're on point with that, Sam. I mean, I don't disagree with this. I mean, actually, I agree with this concept. I think we need to do it, whether it's a resolution or a directive, I don't know what the term is. I mean, I don't, you know, I hear what John's saying, you know, this and actually I have more problem I think with the hiring freeze which is next rather than this. I would, I, you know, but I do think that we need to provide the staff and the manager with a directive that says, you know, it's not going to be more than that. You need to keep any budget increase to, whether it's, I think two percent is probably not, you know, we need more information, but whether it's three percent or something and greater than that, or maybe even a little less, I don't know. But we haven't heard from the people who need to implement whatever we're trying to do. I think jumping on this right now is a little premature, but I do think that we need to, we need to take a good hard look at this, get some input from Jen and the staff and figure out what a reasonable number would be, whether that's a formal motion or a directive, I don't know. I think that's [1:38:33] Speaker G (unidentified): I guess in my, in my opinion, you know, yes, we absolutely need to coordinate this with the staff to make sure that what we're like looking for is realistic. Someone's gonna take the first step. I guess what I'm saying is I'm open to starting to write some stuff up with the, with details to make that first step, to start laying out what potentially these expectations could be, that would then give the staff something in writing that's concrete to look at and be like, heck no, or yeah, that's doable, or maybe this number is a little better, gives you the framework. Yeah, and I think that framework work could be used if it's, you know, effective over and over again, and it leans towards our goal that we've been talking about since last budget, last February, of getting a more concrete process in place. That's awesome. [1:39:34] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): Susannah, 22 Beach Road. I really appreciate us starting somewhere, getting something to even talk about to move this forward. This may be a silly question, but can you walk me through at all where you landed on the two percent or sort of the researcher data that went into starting with that number, per se? I think that would help me sort of orient my brain as to like the starting point here, and then it sounds like we're going to talk about it more, but that might help me understand where, why we were starting it too. [1:40:05] Speaker G (unidentified): Yeah, I looked at what Furrow did, and then I pulled past engineer data for cost of living expenses and increase, and dropped it down to there. We could average up to three percent, but I thought two percent would be a good conversation starter, theorizing likely go to three to five. Awesome, thank you. Thank [1:40:29] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): you, Chair Maggie Raymond. Again, so let me see if I can try to understand what is going to happen going forward. Mr. Flintstrom is going to try to look at that. Nothing real [1:40:42] Council Chair (presiding officer): nothing's going forward, nothing's different, this is just discussion. No, I'm talking about what he is offering to do. Yes, but if that's, if that's going to go in print, it can't, because right now what he's offering to do isn't on the table. Oh no, I'm just asking myself, okay, all right. I just want to, I just want to, I just want to make sure. I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. No, all good, I just want to make sure, okay, so [1:41:13] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): it's my understanding that you're going to look at the things that cannot be changed, the things that cannot, the expenses that have to be, are mandatory because of the union contract [1:41:29] Speaker G (unidentified): My thought would be if the council, if the council wishes that myself and someone else from the council, because I've been doing it, I thought it would be effective, would come up with various and various aspects of the budget and what are as far as the council's goal would be for those items, and to your point those would include ones that are sort of non-negotiables in it, they are sort of out of our control. Okay, great, thanks. So I want to encourage that [1:42:02] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): that conversation to continue because I did appreciate the suggestion that Councilor Martin made. And it was obviously in response to the listening session that so good on you for actually responding to what folks had to say. So hopefully we'll never see another 13.3% increase in the budget that was a obviously an anomaly. Yeah, so anyway I want to just encourage you [1:42:42] Town Manager: personally to continue the discussion. Thank you, thank you. So Tony tells anybody [1:42:50] Speaker J (unidentified): and i 've actually you know in previous meetings several different sessions raised this issue of the council setting some type of a number for the town manager but you know i'm i'm old but i can still learn and i've listened and what i'm hearing is you know again i think it's a bit premature and sam to your point about you know looking at specific items you know it was discussed earlier this evening that you know the town council doesn't direct the staff down council directs the town manager And so, you know, I think it's clear, I think Jennifer clearly understands, you know, where the public's sentiment is when it comes to the budget. And again, so process-wise, as I've raised, you know, maybe we need to start earlier with listening sessions with the town, etc., and then work towards some target for the town manager. To Mallory's point, I think premature to try to set that now when we don't even have a town manager permanently installed. So, you know, what we're talking about, what you guys are talking about, I think is great, but it may be just the foundation of a change in the process that won't actually come to fruition until the next cycle. Okay, and just listening to everything tonight, I think it would be a great opportunity for the town manager with a clear understanding from the Council and the public. What's expected to, you know, right now very late in the process. When you present to the town council, you know, the budget process, you know, your budget expectation. You lay it out, you know, later in the, in the process. If the cycle could be adjusted so that preliminary information from, you know, the various department heads and staff through the town manager comes to the Council and say, you know, this is what we're looking at. And these are the reasons why, salary increases, health and free health care increases in the snow removal budget, etc. Etc., whatever it is, and then the council can say, okay, well, out of the five million dollar budget, three and a half million is pretty much baked in, we can't really change that, you know, these are all things that are driven by contracts or just, you know, the economy. So what do we talk about, 1.5 million that we may have some flexibility with? Now let's talk about work we can really make some adjustments, and then that information goes back to the town manager and the town manager have to figure out with the various department heads how to make that happen. But again, I absolutely appreciate that this conversation has taken place, but my observation, and I was the one charging for, hey, let's get this going, I think it needs to be a process change that's in place for the next cycle. For this year, I think it's clear, Jennifer, I don't envy, you know, you're gonna have to try to figure out a budget that comes in at close to zero growth because I think that's what, you know, the town expects, if that's possible. It's great, you know, but then you would have a full understanding of why or why not those numbers are realistic, and then you can go from there. But I do really appreciate where you guys are going with, you know, this process, but I think it needs to be something that's worked on, you know, for the next cycle, and change the timing of the various meetings and, you know, who's presenting what to whom and what decisions need to be made maybe when, so that it all can be laid out clearly so that by the time town meeting happens, you know, a year from next spring, the [1:46:17] Town Manager: process will be in place. So just my book, I did talk about the permanent heads, [1:46:23] Public Works/Highway Director: and they all know that it's been EMS has turned the last two years. They all know that we need to push the brakes as much as we can and only ask for must-haves and not wants this year, and everybody is on board with that, but all the departments collectively [1:46:37] Speaker G (unidentified): as well as myself, obviously. One final comment, that's all right. So if not, if we're too late, when are we too early? So if we have to start at some point, whether it is for this year or next, and if we don't now, we're going to be, this is sort of the slowest month of the year in my, like from what I've seen. Once December rolls around, we're definitely too late for this budget season, and then we get into town meeting, and then we're July, August, we're right back where we are now. I [1:47:25] Council Chair (presiding officer): think you have to start. Yeah, I don't know if it's a realistic, you're [1:47:29] Speaker G (unidentified): going to be finished, but you definitely have to start. We have to start building, you have to start, [1:47:33] Council Chair (presiding officer): you have to start that foundation right now to get, you got a foundation to get your framework to go from there. So I think you need to start and then see where you get with expectations, applications that are realistic. [1:47:49] Speaker G (unidentified): anybody else so perhaps maybe you know it's I guess it's sort of mixing this guidance with the framework of a process and if it's in order to asked for yeah what are these special projects that we call them just to take a first whack at a an outline of a process for how the town council gives guidance to the town manager to prepare their budgets something that's a little more concrete than what has been occurring to work on something yeah [1:48:45] Speaker H (unidentified): I mean, you know, it sounds like, I mean, I think we're getting, you know, frankly, I mean, I am fine with giving a director to the manager, yeah, because I don't, I don't know if that's ever been done before. I mean, I, you know, I think over the years we've had pretty flat budgets. It hasn't been a big issue. It is this year, and I think, you know, I did, I attended the staff meeting yesterday, and as Jen said, you know, they are well aware that it's, you know, there's belt tightening here. And hopefully, you know, and so, you know, how we frame, I mean, I would like to hear from them. I mean, I think we're throwing out numbers. We're saying this and that. I have no idea what the reasonable number is, but there's going to be a reasonable, there needs to be a reasonable number. Absolutely. So I mean, I would just like to hear from you and them, and I don't want to dump more work on you right now, because I know you're just out straight. But I guess I'm looking for a compromise, you know, or a number that we all can agree on, right? [1:49:54] Public Works/Highway Director: And then we have our crystal ball as to what is going to happen repeating around what's going to happen with diesel. [1:49:58] Speaker H (unidentified): Is it getting a lot, is it, and you know what, and just to get back to what Sam was saying, I do think there is that process where we, you know, probably should maybe be a more formal like evaluation of how we're doing it. I don't know if we can get that all done in the next, I mean this, I [1:50:21] Speaker G (unidentified): think it can be done in a manner, too. That is, it's starts in a more informal manner, and isn't necessarily like we're working on building something right to put in place. So as far as community, something that a communications tool from the Council to the town manager related to budgets, and it should be something that can be the council process should be done every year, right, where these we identify our priorities and we have a manner by which to communicate them that's more complex than just hey flat letter this year, you know what I mean, right, so that it's [1:51:12] Council Chair (presiding officer): just yeah, just better and more fully communicated, so what's the council's wish on 26 140. I [1:51:37] Councilor: mean we don't even have a motion on the table, no, so that's what I'm looking for [1:51:47] Speaker H (unidentified): I would like, I'll make a motion that Jen discusses with town staff and through her own analysis the examination of the current budget and what is, what a reasonable number of a percentage, The percentage increase might be for the upcoming year, report back. [1:52:07] Public Works/Highway Director: Well, I usually don't even start to a little bit. Well, I like to try to get through last year. [1:52:14] Speaker H (unidentified): I mean, we're also going to come. Well, I know, and that's also why I want to do something now. [1:52:20] Speaker G (unidentified): So you can direct and to make your life easier. So we're like this is what the town with the town council all said. This is the percentage increase. I'm happy to see it. We can reach a two percent. I'm also not married at two percent, but I think it's also like I think we owe the people that have been talking to us to set a certain percentage. And I think like yes, we hold, we hold that line. Like I understand things are going crazy, like I get that, but we just increased taxes by 13 and plot twists, they're, they're not going down. So right, so what happens? [1:52:56] Councilor: What happens if we say 2% and then healthcare comes in at 9% that eats up that entire increase? Are we closing the library, like what are we going to cut significantly? That's what I'm worried about is I feel like there's so much unknown with where we stand right now around this 2%. There's so much I don't agree, but like but I think that I just come back to like, I think if we put out there that we're committing to a particular number, that's what exactly what people are going to expect. And then I cannot happily sit here and promise that we're going to be able to deliver on that. I want to be able to say that we can, but there's enough uncertainty, and there's enough in our budget that we don't have a lot of influence over. And given where healthcare has been, given where diesel prices have been, it just feels for me like a little bit of a risk for us to lock in and commit to something right now. I will, I'm not, I'm not in favor of committing to a maximum. I'm in favor of directing the town manager to say hey, we want to kind of try to keep this as low as possible. But I'm not in favor at this point in time, I'm committing to this maximum increase because we don't have enough information. [1:54:07] Speaker G (unidentified): I would assume that keep it as low as possible has been the mantra every year. I would ideally assume in the third, 13%. [1:54:14] Council Chair (presiding officer): We knew this is what's killing me with the TAP. This is what's killing me with everybody we've heard from. This has been put out since Nick became fire chief. We had dozens of public listening sessions, of meetings, of everything. Everybody knew this was coming. And it's a good thing we did, because look at York Ambulance now and what York just had to do, bailing them out of $800,000. So the town voted on this. The town council did. Jen did. The entire town voted on creating EMS over a two-year period. And it's some. My taxes went up just like everybody else's, and I'm not happy about it either. But we haven't had. If you go back, Joel, 11 years, what has been our average percentage of interest? Two to three percent straight across the board is what we've had. Last year was an anomaly between the reevaluation, the town hall, and EMS. Last year was an anomaly. So we've been at two or three percent. I, that's, but we can't keep beating last year. 13, it won't happen again, I hope, while I live here. But the reason it [1:55:33] Speaker G (unidentified): happened is because the town voted for it. No, I get that. I do. I understand that the town voted for us. Like, this could also be something we put before the town. I'm open to it. But the thing that's frustrating is like, if, why are we so against making this process very formal and having that line held where we instruct the town manager to tell all the, all the department heads, don't bring me a budget to present to the town council that's above a certain percentage. If my wife came [1:56:05] Council Chair (presiding officer): to me right now and told me I have to hold my household budget, my money, to two percent for my household, I couldn't do it. I could not do it in my own household, let alone 80 people on a 12 million dollar budget. I couldn't do it because there's too many variables. I know what all my costs are every day. I know how much my car payment is, my mortgage payment is. I got all that. But I couldn't hold a two percent budget increase if she told me to, because I just, I couldn't do it. I can try to shoot for two and it would be great if they committed to, but I am not, and again, I'm only one vote, but I am not going to vote to lock our staff and our town manager into two percent maximum, because we're going to come back to the public in February or March and say, sorry folks, we've been telling you two percent, but it doesn't work. I just, I don't see it. But that's again [1:57:03] Councilor: That's just me. I think there's also other non-financial implications to decisions like this. You know, we make decisions now, we say we're going to lock the vote into this and we're going to hire and freeze. You know, it would be understandable to me if the staff were kind of reading between the lines like that and we're like, oh, you know, maybe in the future I'm not going to have a job anymore and oh, this other town nearby is hiring and this other town has adopted COLA increases and Southbrook decided not to do it. And so there are like, yes, we're managing this bottom line, but there are ripple effects to these decisions. We're understaffed as it is. You know, sticking us, keeping us to a two percent budget is pretty much guaranteeing that like a COLA increase is not going to be included, which I would love for everyone in the world to get a COLA increase every year, but we have to acknowledge that like these decisions that we're making are not just financial, because if we have employees leave because they're not getting a COLA increase, because they're not happy here, whatever, chances are in this world in order to hire somebody else we're going to have to pay more. So we're moving the problem and we're making it more expensive with these decisions. And so I just think if this is not just a tax bill decision, there are ripple effects to these things, that these decisions that we may be making. And I think it's also setting the stage for a new town manager to come in and cut off at the knees and have little to no, you know, room. And I want a new town manager to come in and be invested and to be excited and to be up for a challenge, because I think there's a big one here and I want that. But I want that person to have some semblance of agency and be able to kind of make South Berwick their own, of course with limitations. That doesn't mean we're giving them like go ham on the budget, but like there's just a lot going on in South Berwick right now that's beyond just taxes. And I think the importance of us finding and securing a good qualified manager who is invested in South Berwick is really important. And whomever that person is watching our meetings right now, they're going to be watching all of our meetings. There's a certain amount of dysfunction that exists already. Like we're not in the greatest place right now to be recruiting the town manager as it is. And so I just worry about adding these decisions to that list and our ability to be able to find a good town manager and That people may be mad that is like my, opinion on this, but there is so much more involved with these decisions than just your tax bill. [1:59:21] Speaker G (unidentified): Okay. You know, I heard Joel have opened to more than 2%, I'll just start a number. So I just have to acknowledge that in terms of your comment about COLA, is the council to me drafting something with more detail, that's sort of more of a starting point for a council guidance document. Something that we can, that this council and the next council can use as just a starting point that has the questions like that we're all talking about but documented and written down that we all should be answering to ourselves and gaining consensus on a more granular basis so that when it does come that time to do the budget they have our desires and they don't need to be limits or maximums or minimums just what our desires are pertaining to the next year's budget because sometimes they may Not just be cap at all it may be the council wants to apply focus on different areas you know economic development or planning or you know public safety like those priorities will shift which will then dictate not just the overall large number but where the town manager should be comfortable you know with increases versus decreases or you know staying flat I'd like you all to allow I'd like to if maybe that help with Joel if you're willing to just draft a draft some sort of document Questionnaire just to bring back and move something a little forward maybe a target could be the cost of living for the year yeah we don't even it doesn't even need to talk about it doesn't even need to have a number in it 's really just yeah building starting to build a framework [2:01:29] Speaker H (unidentified): I mean I have thought about this over the course of the whole year and I whether we do it now or do it later and maybe it's better in a little while I am not opposed to providing a target to you with a number that says it should be a cost of living at the most like you know I think we're overthinking this frankly yeah you know I mean I just think and whether that's just a directive again or you know how we formalize that but just to have you and the staff understand we want you to the best of Your absolute abilities and your professional, you know, you know, and your, you know, experience to come in with a budget that does not exceed the cost of living or something even, you know, I don't have the two percent or, but whatever, I think that's great, you know, I don't, you know, and I and I think in the meantime Sam you can do what you're proposing to do, I mean, I would, yeah, and I think that would be fantastic if you did, and you know, I mean, that's where I'm at, you two might not agree with the cap or with any cap at this point, but with you [2:02:36] Council Chair (presiding officer): I'm fine with me saying the council saying hey Jen we'd like you to keep the budget under 3.3, I'm fine with the council saying that to Jen because she's our employee, our employee, and that's how it works, I'm not fine with making a motion saying thou shalt do this because that locks her into a position that I'm sorry it's, it's not how it's done, but I would love to challenge Jenny to say keep it under cost of living, that my goal from our goal from the council, if you keep the budget under cost of living that's our goal, bring it to us in answer to Ms Steinauer's question, yes, you get your way in at the public hearings, however if you hear us say we're challenging to do that and Jen brings us one at five, we're going to say why is it five, we were looking at cost of living, where is this, and then we can explain to the public we were shooting for 3.3, it's five because of, but I don't see and good with again with and I was earlier with sam setting that framework to get this rolling, i just don't think it needs to be a formal thou shalt do this, that's just me, that's not how i like to work with the people that work for me at work, not how i'd like to work with you guys that work with us since, i mean, that's [2:03:57] Speaker G (unidentified): that's what i fully, which i fully get, i want to go like is not everything that we are [2:04:01] Council Chair (presiding officer): charged to it has to be in like a motion format, no, can you choose deal with jen, no, i can say hey jen i want you to try, i know it's to be a market, i know i don't know what to do to do just [2:04:13] Speaker G (unidentified): then you're like you are not just about to do your beautiful job but i know you're more than just a bug contact me i we have it's it's a massive binder so it's insane but like i'm just confused as to like what is the difference between like we now are like we one weird one We have a like the Council has directed the town manager to keep to keep to request from department heads. Their budgets are around 3.2%. Like, what is the difference between that having a formalized motion and then just saying, Hey, can you do this? [2:04:47] Council Chair (presiding officer): Because if I do a formula, it's a formalized motion at 2%. That's here. That's done. That's a vote. That's what she has to do. If I say hey Jen I'd like you to keep this at 3.3 she's going to do everything she can but she's going to keep working on that budget once she hits two percent. If I was Jen I'd stop and say well we're done I can't do any more because I'm at two percent I can't don't bother cut everything we don't need that formality to lock her in. We just need to give her our expectations and so far Jen's met every expectation that I've ever seen the council given so I have no fear that if we told her stay Undercover which will be nice if people get it because I'm not going to but it would be nuts make sure it's in charge too so I just said I'm good with it. I'm good with all of this and I like the conversation and I like the listening session and 40 people [2:05:46] Councilor: People showed up I lost that bet that night so should we move forward with a motion where we're going to kind of what Sam has proposed in terms of this framework and that's the action you take this evening. I'm I'm on board with that absolutely I have no issue with that Joel no well are we [2:06:03] Speaker H (unidentified): Directing a no interest we're not doing I think we I think we should take the first move yeah get [2:06:09] Speaker G (unidentified): Get ourselves all yeah I know we're having well I'm going to direct Sam and I it just won't like the framework will be frameworked it won't have actual numbers or anything this is what we [2:06:20] Speaker H (unidentified): Want to do this is how we want to do this all right well I am I do think at some point we need to specify a target that we would like to see I don't know when [2:06:34] Councilor: We have a rough estimate I mean that's the point of this one will be more solid about that well no it's so end of October the beginning of November for health insurance premiums okay. I personally feel like that is a big piece that we should absolutely make sure we're waiting for because that is a very volatile number and that's still the people I would ask for when people expect to have the health insurance information and we should have that pretty locked in by end of October early November Yeah and I Because I do think that is a number that can fluctuate a lot, especially if we have to change the plan or just that it might take over. [2:07:10] Speaker H (unidentified): Could we set a target for the end of October, or an agenda item for a target, specifying a target by the end of October, which would be line up with, and that would give you time to talk to department heads, get a feeling about things, look at the health insurance. I mean I'm very hesitant to like not put a target on this I mean I think I you know [2:07:33] Council Chair (presiding officer): but the target costs the limit yeah it's just you know it's not a motion but that's how they [2:07:39] Speaker G (unidentified): caught the limit what if we table this pretty without emotion if there's no emotions required for being builders and perhaps something for that correct table this table this and then there's no motion so it can be amended to be whatever i also stand to clarify do you want to revisit this you're not talking about the whole like the process right this is just revisiting this i just want to take paul's point yeah realistic number at the end you said at the end [2:08:06] Public Works/Highway Director: of november middle of november i should have insurance numbers but i can start working on other items like you know union contracts you know kind of jacked out what cola might be [2:08:17] Speaker G (unidentified): Yes, and you get a little bit of the mail part that has the December or January. [2:08:23] Public Works/Highway Director: Yeah, so they have to me the first round in December second round of January. I finalize everything in February. Typically we start with March, but maybe we try to scoot that earlier, and I think one of the suggestions of inviting the public to the budget meetings for Q. and a after the fact or you know that might be good as well then they could get more involved [2:08:45] Town Manager: in the beginning part of the process would you prefer november 10th at the 24th [2:08:51] Speaker G (unidentified): we're trying to [2:08:53] Councilor: do this well okay so just november 10th is going to be a weird meeting i don't care about it you [2:08:57] Speaker G (unidentified): know that's that's another reason why i like it yeah i want to check out tonight yeah 24th [2:09:02] Public Works/Highway Director: do yourself a favor 24th yeah we'll have a lot of administrative business to do in the first [2:09:07] Speaker G (unidentified): meeting in november sure move to reasons move to table this agenda item 26-140 have a bet on the agenda for reconsideration on november 24th i'll second that [2:09:28] Councilor: just can i ask a question then kind of what we talked just talked about and you just said about like looking at stuff from like a capacity perspective Dennis if everyone was not aware Jen is literally wearing three hats and is basically holding up this entire town and I know that is the time period where you're focused on audit and like I think that 's also a thing we should just be considering are we putting more work on Jen that maybe next year would be totally feasible when we have a new town manager, but this year might be hard? [2:09:59] Public Works/Highway Director: I will do the best that I can to get as many members as I can. I'm not going to have the [2:10:03] Speaker H (unidentified): whole budget done, but yeah, I mean, we're not asking for a budget. Yeah, I mean, I won't [2:10:08] Public Works/Highway Director: go final members and, you know, until I get everything right. I think percentage-wise, [2:10:15] Speaker H (unidentified): maybe, hopefully, that's a big task, but I'll do my best, right? You know, the other added benefits at least doing this is that I do have that concern about the manager. I know what Joel's saying. We just can't keep deferring stuff until we get a manager, whether we know whoever that may be, but I think at this point it, you know, we'll be in that process. I mean, that can be part of our process with the, with it should be part of our interview process, that we should be talking to [2:10:41] Councilor: the manager, like, how are our candidates thought, okay, if you're given a situation, how are you going to work through that? How are you going to manage it? That's why that absolutely should be [2:10:48] Public Works/Highway Director: part of our, I think we'll start with the nodes already, the nodes that we're going to increase [2:10:53] Town Manager: and at least see when that lands, so at least give us an idea. So if you give me, if you look at the [2:10:57] Council Chair (presiding officer): nodes, it's going to give you a percentage, right? After that, tell me how close you are, right? And [2:11:01] Speaker H (unidentified): and being in your meeting yesterday, I mean, it's, it's clearly they know what's up. I mean, we're [2:11:08] Council Chair (presiding officer): probably looking at it right now. So we have a motion in a second. Hearing no further discussion, Sam? Aye. Paul? Aye. Joel? Aye. Ann? Aye. Yeah, Mallory. I vote aye. I vote no. All right. Moving on to the next one that Paul has an issue with. 26-141, fiscal year 2027-2028, budget freeze on new staff. And I must say I have a concern also. But so the motion, the requested action right now is the software account counts to establish a complete freeze on the creation or addition of any new municipal positions for fiscal year 2728. It applies to all departments, offices, boards, and agencies of the town. Now, existing positions can continue to be filled, but other than that, no new positions for the entirety of the fiscal year, 2,027, 2,028. [2:12:18] Speaker G (unidentified): And that's this we are in now, correct? Yeah, no, that's next. Make sure. Yeah, no one can in the next budget. [2:12:28] Town Manager: Budget ideally no one has any new positions which again could be cut at that time during budget. [2:12:35] Speaker G (unidentified): Meetings just on that and I get that I do and like maybe this is just my perspective of like going through the in the first time and honestly feeling like I couldn't say no to things and like that will be very different this year but I also just feel like is it not would it not be helpful for like you as an interim time manager to advise the department heads as I started to put it together and like if they say like I want this position and they go through the whole process of like creating a Job description and like all that and then they get it to us and be like no is this would that would this not be easier to say no one can hire in the next year. [2:13:13] Public Works/Highway Director: I'm just like from your perspective well and it depends too I mean what if there's a situation where you think that maybe there's someone doesn't need to maybe the one I don't know it could be a shift thing or something somewhere and I don't know what that would look like but I'm just around out there and again most of the hall staff is really knowing that we need to come into this very need this year as well and they're working together as a team to bring me [2:13:37] Council Chair (presiding officer): The best budget that we can so go this way we have an even worse winter and Jay's tapped out because those guys are working 80 hour weeks or 100 hour weeks and we need to hire a seasonal a sidewalk guy or something like that which we have to do on a fairly regular basis this takes that out of the equation we could amend or recent by the time you get to a town council meeting I mean again it's just me I we haven't in the 12 years I've been here been willy-nilly with hiring people every time we created the new position it's been at the budget when we went through we created two positions this year and we were back and forth on whether we needed them or not right and we ended up putting it back in because in the end the difference didn't make a difference in a tax bill with the money but that's that's what the budget's time is for and if they have to hire someone jen's gonna figure how many it's gonna come to us anyway without out us saying this in order to hire or create a new position they come to town counseling [2:14:49] Speaker G (unidentified): it seems like the big resistance with both of these is we don't want you don't want to formalize the process at all no i don't want to handcuff the town manager that i pay to do [2:14:59] Council Chair (presiding officer): their job i pay a professional to do their job and i'm going to let them do their job [2:15:04] Speaker G (unidentified): and it is it not our role to advise that professional it is our role to make sure [2:15:11] Council Chair (presiding officer): sure they are meeting either there are expectations but at no point am I advising the town manager on their role because I'm not a town manager if they want to talk submarine repair I'll advise her all day long but no we hire our town manager to run the town and then we are elected by the [2:15:29] Speaker G (unidentified): people of the town yeah to advise the town manager who reports to us yep we and we do and we can again [2:15:38] Council Chair (presiding officer): again we can tell her we don't want you to hire anybody I can do that Joel I'm I'm okay with this I'm okay with telling the town manager not to do this I'm not okay with creating a situation where they can't do it unless they come back to us if we need to hire them that 's that's taking [2:15:54] Speaker G (unidentified): is that power away from the town manager is that not already existing process though because they would need to add someone to a budget for us to approve and if that person's not existing in the budget they can't just add someone so this is truly just formalizing the current process but also saying in 20 27 28 they cannot like no role can be added so why but i don't understand why because of the budget but what if we need one i think again like no one knows the future like this is like i don't Understand why like there's hesitation to make a policy on the potential question of the future. Like we might, we might need to need someone work like that could happen. We might not need somebody. We might have a huge exodus from the town hall. What doesn't happen, like we could, there's a lot of things that are ifs. We could have a fire truck break down tomorrow morning. Like all these things could happen, but what, why is it so wrong to try to formalize our existing process to set guidelines? Especially looking at the 2027-28 budget where it says, again this is just how my mind works, I would want to be advised ahead of time. If I'm a department head working on a budget and I send it in and like it just gets completely shredded, I'd rather know in advance as I'm building and taking my time to do it to provide to the town management before it goes to the duty or it was the town council. Like this is what is kind of expected of me this year. That's, that's the whole point of both of these motions again one of one [2:17:21] Council Chair (presiding officer): of five open to it. No, I, and again I'm good with it, but that's why they have department head meetings. That's why they meet every day. That's why again I keep going back, that's why I meet with my guys all the time. They know my expectations, they know where we're going, they all know they can't work overtime in the next month because the government's out of money. They all know them, so they're not going to come to me and tell me I need to work 12-hour days because we can't be having a month, so they all know that. I'm sure all the gen staff knows we're not going to be hiring new people. I don't have a problem formalizing processes. I don't like formalizing processes is that don't need to be formalized and just create more paperwork and more churn for the staff, and this is one of those that I don't see value added in doing this. But again I'm one of five, but I see no value in making this motion to tell Jen that she can't create a position that she already knows she doesn't have a budget and unless it's a needed position they're not going to create. But that's just again, that's just me. We're making a motion to make a motion, I feel like we're I [2:18:18] Councilor: like i feel like how i 'm reading the situation is like we are wanting to demonstrate that we've heard people at the budget session and we are wanting to take action on that and i understand that and i want to do that as well the reality is like we're talking about a hiring phrase and i'll come back to the fact that like everyone in this room here tonight will understand what we mean by our higher space because they were here for this discussion but this is going to run through town about oh The council said they're going to make a hiring freeze and then there's to be a post online to backfill the rec department whatever the position is right because that's something already based on the budget and what I'm what I'm trying to say is that I feel like this potentially will actually create more public conflict than not because we are so we are input we are talking about a hiring freeze but a very detailed hiring freeze right for only very specific certain scenarios but your average Person is going to just hear a hiring phrase and I'm like why is Saltburg hiring and then they're going to be bugging us about why are you hiring for a new position and again I think it's like it's really important that we demonstrate that we listened that we want to take action we are having this discussion we are talking about giving the town manager direction these are all actual things that we can say the town council is taking action on that but we're not locking us and I don't necessarily Feel the hiring freeze like I agree I think we should say for next year like no incremental position I'm more worried about how that message is going to be received by our community and I don't think it's going to be understood that means that like we're not going to backfill positions so they're not why are you hiring higher why you're going to why are you hiring a town manager we're in our hiring rates you know and then that just becomes a lot more that we have to explain and put out there And it's just another thing to consider that really doesn't change the situation at all it just creates more has the potential to just [2:20:10] Speaker H (unidentified): Create a little bit more confusion, I guess. I, you know, I think I see these rolled into one. I mean, what are we trying to do here? We're trying to limit spending, and whether, you know, you know, you know, I think that we can do that by setting, saying we don't want to see the cost of the increase. Leave it up to the manager, the department heads. Maybe there's more efficiency by them rolling a couple of positions into one position. Does that come back to us? Do we need to approve that? I'm very concerned about us getting involved with personnel decisions that might need to be made at the department level as they try to sort of, you know, work their way through this, you know, whatever sort of limitations that we might be putting on them. I just feel like we can solve this by just saying we're going to limit our spending. And how you as department heads want to try to do that, 's that 's that's up to you, and you know, I think again, I think they've heard the message. I can't see people coming in saying I want a bunch of new positions or any new positions. I, you know, I just have a, and I think maybe a new town manager would come in and find efficiencies by, you know, combining positions, you know, are they then new positions? I don't know, you know, I think it's sort of a slippery slope for us as we, you know, by saying a hiring freak, but I 'd rather just see I, you know, a limit on spending the web, you know, [2:21:46] Councilor: on the operating, but it's a limit on spending all inherently free. I think there's, I think there is [2:21:57] Speaker G (unidentified): I think it's, I think the it's the it's twofold, though, and so I'm sort of going back to what I said earlier, and that's, that's what is our target, or our guidance and target for the budget, and where does the Council want to prioritize that money? Because if we don't also give a prioritization of projects we want done or what we want for the next year, and all the money could be go into labor versus a priority that is more maybe more infrastructure based, for example. So I think we communicate, and again, this is sort of what I was talking about earlier, both of those things together, that addresses the this labor desire and the overall like top line budget desire, if you will, versus mass versus cat desire. Guys, what's it outside here? You've been very patient, sir. [2:23:02] Speaker J (unidentified): I know. Again, [2:23:05] Council Chair (presiding officer): These 2 I am outside the charter on these 2, because asking for comment before you hear us doesn't make sense to me. [2:23:13] Speaker J (unidentified): So I am in violation of fire, so Tony Fowles, Eddie Whitetail Drive. First of all, Sam, I really like the concept of not just a financial, you know, concern that's been will be presented to the town manager, but also the council presenting priorities, you know, types of services, public safety, you know, whatever the council has heard from the town as to what the priority should be. I think that's another piece that would be beneficial to the town staff as they work on the budget. Make [2:23:48] Councilor: a couple of notes, hiring character really fast. I just want the rest of the counselor to know that is a process that existed prior. We did not do that this past year of giving the town manager priorities. That is something that's happened for years and years and years, and just your experience this past year that did not happen. It's been kind of challenging here, so sorry. [2:24:09] Speaker J (unidentified): Okay. Well, and that's great. Joel, to your point, it was listed as a hiring freeze. And I read that and I'm like, oh my God. Hiring freeze to the public means any position that's not filled now or any position that becomes vacant doesn't get filled. You're talking about a moratorium on new positions, not a freeze of hiring existing positions. So I think that would, Mallory, to your point, I mean, that would help, but it's it's kind of like making sausage here, but it's it's not a freeze on hiring, it's a moratorium on new positions, on creation or additional, right? But I think using the term hiring freeze to, you know, make the title for this discussion is going to put people in a different place than if you said a moratorium on new positions. The other thing, and to your point, Paula and Sam and I think others have made it, we expect the town manager and the town staff to work within whatever budget guidance they are given, or they presume based on the economy, to manage those funds in the best way possible. If you say no new positions, knowing they could still come to the Council and ask for new positions. That's fine. But what it does is it immediately takes that option off the table. So if it makes more sense to hire a part-time position rather than paying additional overtime, they're not even going to go there because they've been told no new positions. So creating that framework saying no new positions unless you know have to bring it back to the account council, it already changes the way that they're going to be evaluating, you know, what their needs are and how they can meet those needs. So I just think it's it's a little bit really caging them in to Sam's point. Others have made it give them a budget number, give them an expectation, however that happens, but I wouldn't want to see the council getting down in the weeds of saying, you know, no new but no new positions, because that'd be like saying well and no new squad cars and no new, you know, roll out gear for the fire. I mean, we don't want to get in that level of discussion. We want the town managers to make those kind of calls. So i just think saying no new positions, you know, putting that forward, passing, you know, an agenda item tonight saying okay we voted on no new positions, if i'm sitting at my desk trying to figure out how i'm going to make things work, i'm not going to go to well if i had a part-time or if i had a couple of part-time which, you know, that's just not going to be part of my calculus. So how did i [2:26:58] Maggie Raymond, public commenter (Sewell Road): camera find our 19 Hill Drive? I've created budgets for over 40 years, so i'm very familiar with what you're going through. I want to thank you for those last two suggestions, motions that may or may not pass, because based on all the feedback that you've all received, if you don't make a change, nothing's going to change, and i think that's the whole point of you bringing up those things. And yes, we want to see that you all heard what we all presented, and if this is how it comes to pass, i think that's great. And personally i think if people heard there would be no new positions created, they'd stand up and cheer, because i think i think we're all maxed out. But i in listening i feel like town council has always rubber stamped whatever the manager brings to the budget for the budget, and i think now you need to be gatekeepers. You can't just rubber stamp anymore, because everyone is messed up and we, you know, we're struggling, because some people are struggling to pay taxes, so it is all about the taxes. [2:28:17] Council Chair (presiding officer): HAB-Jacques Juilland- Anybody make a motion with [2:28:22] Speaker H (unidentified): with this piece sort of rolled into whatever you're conceiving was sort of. [2:28:28] Speaker G (unidentified): HAB-Terry Palmos- Thanks, I think, what yeah I imagine it would be that prioritization and. HAB-Terry Palmos- financial we'll figure out what to call it draft call it, you know, but because document or not enough. [2:28:45] Council Chair (presiding officer): HAB-Jacques Juilland- I thought it was the creator, I mean you feel like. [2:28:48] Speaker G (unidentified): come on like i mean i 'm like i truly not like when i when we left when we left last week and i sat down whatever like notes everything and thought about the process like last year again my whole the whole thought process was i want to make it easier on jen when she has conversations with department heads to say this is what i was directed by from the council like this is it because i feel like if i'm making a budget as a department head and i like have no direction it's just how i am personally like i will shoot for the moon because that's what i will do but like having that having those having that limit i think would have been helpful that's where the thought process came from and also trying to continue to formalize our budget process i think sam paul and i have talked about that since we came on board and like and the first thing we're like we need this needs to change i'm i'm fully open to continuing this conversation with sam and creating a more formalized proposal and like looking at the i think i brought this up last week too we're like we have the dollar bill like we can't touch 85 of this the rest we can be creative with we can do something with that the whole the whole goal was to try to help prepare us moving into the next budget before jennigan starts having these meetings That's all it was. I want to say thank you for bringing up the Zeebsburg. I think over a half an hour of us having good discourse on this topic and super important. All right. So it was the 24th that we did last night, right? Yeah. I'd like to make a motion to combine by the fiscal year 2007 budget freeze on new staff, 26-1-141 and amended table to 11-24-17. [2:30:45] Council Chair (presiding officer): And I will gladly second that. All right, we have a motion and a second. What are you laughing about? Good, we'll go down to a vote. Joel? Aye. Mallory? Aye. Paul? Aye. Sam? Aye. I vote aye also. Motion passes 5-0 to move that. just for the public's awareness, we'll do council member comments, and then we have an executive session scheduled after this. [2:31:12] Town Manager: joel council agenda item number 26 100 to the emotions and remove it later on in the agenda [2:31:21] Councilor: are we just going to table us for next meeting the [Speaker G (unidentified): budget listening session] It wasn't emotionally no yeah we kind of decided we kind of I think we kind of concluded that the two later I don't think we just were the same so that makes sense. [2:31:44] Council Chair (presiding officer): That would be beautiful thank you Monique for holding us accountable Joel. [2:31:50] Speaker G (unidentified): A strawberry festival volunteer meeting October 19th at 6 00 p.m just mind for anyone that wants to jump on without they need volunteers. [2:32:08] Councilor: Three in a row you'd have to leave Mallory I want to remind everybody that next Tuesday day at six o'clock here we have an MDOT project open house for the project the downtown project and then early voting starts soon absentee ballot returns start soon just want to make sure that everyone has planned to vote whether that's in person or elsewhere. [2:32:32] Town Manager: [2:32:35] Speaker H (unidentified): Yeah I guess the hazard this waste collection day was a smashing success like possibly overtly successful big line down and I don't know you know what the opportunities are to maybe double up that I Jen you said it was very expensive for to yeah okay but it's it's worthwhile but I you know I'm glad to see everybody did that so that's great. The other thing is I was trying I'm sorry I was driving by the ball fields on Saturday and the parking situation on I didn't go in there. But the part of the situation on Willow Drive is just unbelievable. I mean I and I asked Nikki about it or whoever yesterday. I don't know why people are not using the other parking lot. I mean, I don't know if there's anything we can do so that people don't need to park on the street, which is extremely dangerous on both sides of the street. It's crazy. You know, signage? I don't know. I'm not sure. I don't know what the police do. I really have a lot to do. [2:33:50] Council Chair (presiding officer): Spike strips? Instead of curbs? 15 minute parking. We've tried everything and nobody wants to walk from that far parking lot. I it's not that far. [2:34:04] Speaker H (unidentified): I'm going to be doing coffee this Saturday weather permitting at 9 30. I hope people can come we can talk about all this again for some of that it's a really nice roof so yeah. [2:34:24] Speaker G (unidentified): I got a reason weather for me that's not supposed to be a nor'easter I don't know. [2:34:31] Speaker H (unidentified): I don't care I don't know that's all I got damn I don't have anything for that. [2:34:39] Speaker G (unidentified): That was I enjoyed that conversation I think just again just having full discussions about stuff that is important is it's always a good start yeah looking forward to getting something to. [2:34:53] Council Chair (presiding officer): That for consideration I agree that was very productive I will not make any comments and move that we go into executive session versus a one MSRA 406.