Bangor committee postpones central kitchen vote pending cost and operations data

[0:02] Joseph Leonard: We will not be on live streaming on YouTube, but I will post this link to [0:10] Lisa Goodwin: Zoom and update that like ASAP. That's acceptable. Okay, thank you. Okay, you just let me know when [0:16] Joseph Leonard: you're ready. Okay, yep, you're all set. Okay, well good evening everyone. It is currently 804 PM. I am Council Leonard. This is the economic development committee meeting. Committee members, we have Councilor Mallar, Councilor Faloon, and Councilor Fish around the table. We have Council Chair Haas. We have City Manager Carollynn Lear. We have Director of Community Economic Development and we have counselor Dean as well. So we do have a very large agenda. We're going to go a little bit out of order and we're actually going to start off with the discussion on the central kitchen project, and I'm selling it. Take it away. Okay. [1:11] Carollynn Lear: Okay, thank you. Again, and create the director of community economic talent. Development. This is a discussion about the central commercial kitchen project that was started in started a staff level 2017. And now we're at a point where we are working on two different parallel paths. One is trying to pursue working with a construction manager for the project, as well as working with a consultant for operations. So I just wanted to remind counselors, I know that there's some concerns out there with the project. And this isn't necessarily to say you should go forward or not go forward. This is more to say, this is how we got here. The project, you know, got started a long time ago, kind of stopped for a while and started up again. We have received a congressional spending about 1.5 million as well as 500 000 from the northern border commission, and in the budget year that we're currently in right now there is the ability to pursue a bond for the remaining funds necessary to continue the project. One question that came up at the last meeting was how much have we spent so far on this project? We've spent about $500,000 on the architect. That's pretty typical for a project in the number of millions that we're looking at for the kitchen. We've also spent a little over 14,000 in the study that was in your packet prepared by Periscope. And previous to that in 2019 and 2020, in 2019, $63,000 was spent for the abatement and again in 75 000 and fy 20 again for abatement. And you know building you know we did have somebody take a look at the existing building because that was always plan a just to remind folks we plan a was to use that existing building and in 2017 that building was in good shape. But it became apparent that, you know, the building had really failed considerably, and had been broken in and vandalized extensively. Over time, we did secure the building. But you know, as you know, in that area, there were a lot of issues with breaking into, that building for a while. So the building did deteriorate to the point where it became more efficient to do a demo rebuild on that building. So last year around this time, actually, the architect came in to be ed and presented the concept for a new building. And that's what we've been working on. Since then, I did ask our economic development team to do a little bit more research on the work that they've been doing and to go over that. So Brigitte and Brad, if you want to come. [5:14] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): Yes, so as you know, Brad, we started in 2024 and immediately took on this project leading this project. What I want to start with is saying that I understand that it's the council's concern and focus that we are fiscally responsible. We have been, I want to underscore the decision that we made last year to go in the direction of a demo rebuild versus a redevelop because we understood that would save us 1.5 million. And so we went in that direction. We also understood that in working within a prefabricated metal building, it will allow for more energy efficiency, which in operating costs would save us a significant amount. So I just wanna underscore that, is a priority of ours and that's how we approach our work. Always with fiscal responsibility as the priority the van gorn central kitchen facility is intentionally right size for the for our demand. So we it's approximately 18 000 square feet in total and also it's designed for the utilization of the businesses that we believe will be accessing the building so no more no less. And that really was gauged around the market feasibility of what kind of businesses but what businesses would be potential tenants and right sizing the business for us which again Underscores fiscal responsibility in that we don't want to have a building that is oversized and that we're paying for a larger building and we're not needing or utilizing that space. I had talked about operation, our operations consultant, where we're in the process of onboarding now. It's in that work just so that we can paint a clear picture. That operations consultant would be doing financial modeling for us and advancing the project framework. The work ensures that financial management structures are determined, meaning the governance of the actual building. So while we are the investor, we need to make sure that we explore different financial, different governance models that will allow for us to manage, but not be the experts in that management, and to understand how to run a commercial kitchen and how to make sure that model is sustainable. Again, proceeding with this work and just understanding, so we had a market feasibility study was done in 2022, and then we, and we recognize that an operations feasibility study needs to happen as well. We can't move forward being financially responsible without having that operations, and I call it an operations plan, but it really focuses on the finance and the business structure. And just to make it a little more concrete, is it a nonprofit organization that's operating our commercial kitchen? Is it a for-profit? Is it a combination of both with us governing and ensuring that our key performance indicators are met? Because while we are investors, we wanna make sure that we understand that there's need in that market feasibility. But we want to make sure that building is run to satisfy that need and continuously place entrepreneurs in a position to establish their business and continue to grow. So just, again, to be clear in this, it's so important that while we advance in our negotiations with a construction manager, that simultaneously we devise this operating plan. Plan, because in those negotiations we'll be able to clearly identify how much it's going to cost to build our building. While we have our budget, we haven't disclosed our budget just yet because we wanted to have leverage in our negotiation. Having that leverage allows us to really be able to negotiate strategically. So we have our budget with this construction manager that we have asked to continue negotiations with. We want to make sure that they are able to build our building the way that we intended the design to be based on our budget and the negotiations around that will be, can you build it for this amount, and if you can't build it, what is it that, what can we potentially come to an agreement with in terms of the design of the building? But we can't do that without having that operations plan in place, because one really feeds the other. So I wanted to kind of paint that picture and also to revisit the importance of a business incubator. So while this is focused on food service and the food service and accommodations industry, the incubator model nonetheless is so important for our small businesses and our entrepreneurs. Nationally, it allows for below market space so that these businesses can either establish or expand their business, and it gives them, in addition to not only the space and the equipment that they can access below market, it gives them the actual business acumen to run their business successfully, to ultimately graduate from that space and to enter the actual market. So I want to hand it over to Brad to talk about what our current food service ecosystem looks like and how our banker central kitchen will complement what's already existing. Yes, okay, thanks Bagita. So first off, I just want to introduce food business ecosystem building or food business ecosystem creating. Currently there, the new YMCA building will have a community kitchen, and currently the University of Maine Orono has a grant to build a food innovation lab. These are not competition to the Bangor Central Kitchen, that actually it's opposite, it's a great opportunity for collaboration. So just to give a few details about that, the purpose of our Bangor central kitchen is a commercial kitchen incubator for food entrepreneurs. Our target users are startups, small food businesses, and restauranteurs. The YMCA community kitchen, its purpose is a community oriented kitchen for programs, education, and family services, and the target users are families, youth, and community groups. And for the UMaine Food Innovation Lab, its purpose is a commercial-scale food production, research and development, and pilot manufacturing. And its target users would be food and beverage manufacturers, researchers, and students, and packaging. Packaging. And so this ecosystem is already underway, and the Bangor Central Kitchen would be an instrumental part of the food business ecosystem for the Bangor region. Now, a few simple examples. There may be a family who goes in and does a simple meal to help a family in need at the YMCA, and they decide, you know, I really like, I really like cooking and making food. Maybe I could do this as a side business. Maybe I can make some money in this. Well, then they could refer them to us, to the Bangor Central Kitchen, where they can actually scale and make that product for sale. And we may have someone, a business at the Bangor Central Kitchen that is producing product, but they want to add a line to their product, or they want to create different packaging, or packaging that will work better so they can start selling more online. Well, then we can refer them to the UMaine Food Innovation Lab, where they can do research and development in the new wine that they want to make, or in the packaging that they want to do. So we just want to emphasize that there is a food business ecosystem that is being put in place in the Bangor region, and the Bangor Central Kitchen would be an instrumental part of that, along with humane, of the humane food innovation lab, and the YMCA community kitchen. We do have a list of potential companies that would utilize our central kitchen. I'll not give you the exact names of those 20 companies in this meeting. But I have the list right here. Over three quarters of those companies, either bigita or myself have met with personally, and they have shown interest in leasing space from the bank or central kitchen. On top of that, we've had several miscellaneous phone, or I'm sorry, anonymous phone calls with folks who called in just asking, is the central kitchen open yet, so that we can rent space? When those happen now, I always try to ask them, oh, what's your name, what's your company, what are you interested in doing, and try to get a little bit more data and information. And lastly, we do have four case studies from the USDA. And we just want to make sure that everyone understands that the commercial kitchen business incubator is all across the country. And there are many hundreds of successful food business incubators across the United States. We have four case studies from the USDA of examples of successful businesses operating in commercial kitchens, and what's very interesting, one of the USDA case studies is a business that struggled greatly that didn't have access to a commercial kitchen incubator and the challenges that they face. And the other three are companies that had access to it. And how many of them, there's quotes with them saying, I don't think I would have been able to do this without the commercial kitchen incubator for our business to succeed. So with that, in summary, the Bangor Central Kitchen would be a very important and critical component to the food business ecosystem building that's happening right now in the bank. [17:04] Joseph Leonard: Counselors, is there any staff feedback that any of you would like to give to our economic development team? Hey, I do have a question myself, counselor, putting their thoughts together. So we came up with this plan last decade, and a lot of changes have gone through this force of action. So I think, I can't remember who it was I was talking to about this, but it was in regards to some grants that the city would be work in conjunction with the commercial kitchen get, and do you know what would happen if say this project even if it were to go off course by even a couple of years or even be just straight up canceled, what on the coin this would come from that [18:04] Carollynn Lear: overall? Well, we would have to go back to the funding sources, the grant, you know, the two organizations that gave us those grants, to talk about if they can get redirected and how, and it would be, it would be difficult to go back. Because those, they were very specific about what the funds are. [18:32] Joseph Leonard: And so like, in this hypothetical, if this were to just go sideways, are there any other issues besides the fact that we have to give that money back? What other consequences come from that, if there are any? [18:51] Carollynn Lear: I mean, I think that's the big one, and also the business community that is waiting for this to happen. Yeah. [18:59] Joseph Leonard: And obviously, I just have my own personal biases on this. But seeing as how everything in the food industry is radically changing from mom and pop restaurants all the way to manufacturing enterprises, I can only speak for myself, but I think this is putting us into what is a much changing demographic of what this commercial kitchen is going to allow us to implement. Implement not just for our local economy, but also it kind of paints the path forward for future opportunities that we would have not have had otherwise. So I am very excited for it, just like a lot of our citizens have been for over the decade. And I just, if there are any outstanding questions that Council does have for staff, I do want to make sure that we get those out of the way, just so that we can start to move forward with what is the next step in regards to this. I know there's some budgetary related questions that have come up in the past, or maybe some other planning ideas that we had some questions about, but again, I want to make sure that we get everything out, and then Councilor Faloon, then Councilor Mallar, and then you all. [20:27] Susan Faloon: Thank you. So you have the case studies. How recent are those? From the other? [20:36] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): The USDA cases? They range from 2022 to I think one is recently last year. [20:48] Susan Faloon: Okay, and I just asked a follow-up question. So as far as success rates for these in general, all do you have those statistics? I know the Fork Food Lab didn't fare so well, but it sounds like that was because it was not sized right, but do you have success rates for these kind of on [21:11] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): a national level, we can get you success rates, specific statistics, but anecdotally, I mean, if you think through, because I remember our last conversation here at the vet committee in terms of supporting businesses in general, in terms of programming, and we talked about financing, and this is, this is that, it's just the addition to that in the programming is having, giving them access to the actual equipment and getting them to have a platform to really understand the cooking part of their business, but also how to run their business. So very successful, very big trends in the Northeast for our country, but very successful across the country, and I can definitely get you some statistics in terms of growth, because there's statistics around business establishment and then the actual growth of businesses that are already existing. So for instance, and so that's how we would go about recruiting. We wouldn't recruit only businesses that needed a space, because then we would have all green businesses, and we want to make sure that we develop this synergy of businesses being able to learn from each other. So both, you know, kind of having like an anchor business that's sophisticated, green businesses, and businesses who say, you know what, I'm ready for that next level of growth. [22:31] Susan Faloon: And don't spend a lot of time. I just was curious. I'm a former heater, so I'm really excited about this. [22:39] Joseph Leonard: Dr. Maller, you go ahead. [22:41] Wayne Mallar: Yes, I have several questions. Okay. I noticed in the report you talk about a 13,000 square foot building, but you just told us it was an 18,000 square foot building. Where did the other 5,000 come from? [22:54] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): So the other 5,000 is what we plan for cold storage. So the cold storage. [22:58] Wayne Mallar: Okay. I understand that. But now why would we be going into cold storage if the state is going to add as a bill pending to do it? [23:07] Carollynn Lear: Those are two different types of storage. The cold storage that the state is interested in is unheated storage, where this cold storage is temperature regulated, so it's for food products. [23:20] Wayne Mallar: I don't think so. I think theirs was temperature rated, too. I'll check tomorrow on that, but I don't believe it. Also, how much is a consultant costing us? [23:30] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): Products are roughly $24,000. [23:34] Wayne Mallar: For how? For you? Now the operating losses for the first five years were about $200,000 a year. Is that correct? [23:44] Carollynn Lear: Well, that's the study that Carolyn had done. [23:47] Wayne Mallar: Does that include the bonding costs? [23:52] Carollynn Lear: No, it did not. [23:54] Wayne Mallar: What would the bonding costs be for the first five years? [23:56] Carollynn Lear: We haven't looked into what the bonding costs would be yet. [24:02] Wayne Mallar: How many people does it take to have a complete use of the building? How many people do you expect to be working with at one time, so one time the capacity of the [24:12] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): building is about 40 businesses, but understand that these bit, but so 40 businesses at one time can access this one central kitchen, but then you'll have businesses that would be operating [24:23] Wayne Mallar: during different schedules. I understand it, so I guess my question is during the period of 30 days, how much downtime are you going to have for the building, and that's what's going to have [24:34] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): that's what's going to be produced or operating. Now the facility in Portland is run by [24:41] Wayne Mallar: was it Preble House or Preble? Now are they doing work for the school department, our school department, excuse me, our school department? No, the school department in Portland. Oh, I don't know. Well, it said that somewhere I just read it, so I mean it's out there, public information. Have you considered using the school department for anything? We haven't as part of this project. No, we haven't. Well, isn't that a logical thing to be doing? We're not going to have 100 utilization of the facility of that I am Sure, they're talking about the average small business that's coming there has, I can't remember, was it gross or net income of fifty thousand dollars? They're not going to be spending a lot of time there at sixty, 65 dollars an hour or whatever it is. Okay, the most important question for me, well one of the most important, is you're putting all electric appliances in this building. Why? More efficient? I do not know of a chef anywhere that cooks on electric. Are these standard electric or are they [25:52] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): induction electric? What are they? Induction. But the thing is that we're not, that space, that's the initial design. We have to get to those specificities where we're not there yet because we haven't gotten to the negotiation [26:07] Wayne Mallar: because it would be, but you've already said you're going to use electric, which I think is kind of crazy, but that's the end of, those are things that we spoke [26:14] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): we spoke about potentially change. I talked to the professional kitchen man [26:20] Wayne Mallar: and he does commercial kitchens. No one uses induction because the top is glass and it breaks very easily, and I can't believe you're bringing people in to use it and they're all going to be instructed in how to take care of someone else's equipment. It never works that way. People that come in to rent usually abuse and abuse what's there because they haven't been given instruction. So I have a real problem with you using electricity. Well, let's see now, in Maine we only have one in Portland at 5 000 square feet. No, the one in Portland is important is [27:00] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): 20, it's utilized 20 000 square feet are being utilized and there's 12 000 that's not being [27:07] Wayne Mallar: utilized. It's interesting because the trouble says they run it, said it's only 5 000. That was [27:13] Carollynn Lear: the first lab and then they moved to south Portland to the larger facility. Okay, so they [27:19] Wayne Mallar: started off small. Is that what we should be doing? We're starting out at what we feel is the right [Carollynn Lear: size. I] don't think now is the time to expand and look 10 years into the future on what we're going to be doing. I think we have budgets coming up that are going to be very restrictive and I don't of people voting for a bond and I'd like to know the cost of the bond on the first five years because you know a hundred thousand, the two hundred thousand loss is one thing, but the bond costs are going to be more than that probably because how much are we getting bonding for [28:00] Carollynn Lear: up to six million is in the budget. Well [28:08] Wayne Mallar: I think I need a lot of questions answered before I can vote. I'm at the same time I'm not in favor of hey [28:16] Joseph Leonard: We'll give you Hernandez Smith next and then [28:19] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): Councilor Fish and Council D, I just wanted to add, when you had asked a question around the grant funding, what the impact is if we had to give it back, I just wanted to add to Ann's answer, we would lose credibility. So understand that these partners are not only solely for projects like this. In fact, I believe the airport has recently got an award from NBRC. So just in terms of credibility and partnership, these teams behind these organizations that work with us tirelessly to be able to submit applications and they believe in this project [28:58] Joseph Leonard: First and then counselor Dean and then you can. Okay, thank you. Okay, the estimate path so was [29:05] Carolyn Fish: was around six million to build, it is that right, around there? And that was from 2019 [29:11] Carollynn Lear: No, that's, he ran those numbers what, a few months ago, so they were updated. So the six [29:19] Carolyn Fish: million is the more recent one, correct? Okay, and that would be the budget that the contractor would be restricted to for the 18,000 square foot building? Yes, although we, this is, although [29:33] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): though we haven't, so in our RFP process we didn't reveal our budget just so that we could have [29:39] Carolyn Fish: some leverage with the negotiation. And what if it comes in double than our budget? What's plan B [29:48] Carollynn Lear: Yeah, we'll have to come back and have a conversation about what we do. Yeah, reducing the size of the building or you know what's available to us [29:58] Michael Beck: If I remember correctly, the cold storage, that is potentially revenue, is it not? So at the very least, you have 7,000 square feet of cold storage, subtracted. So is that factored into that net loss over the first two years? Because it seems like that would be... [30:26] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): I just want to say in terms of the net loss over the first two years, that's a bit dated. And that's why we're bringing on this consultant to be able to give us new numbers to work with. I wouldn't, I wouldn't, yeah, I don't want to consider that fact. I don't want to rerun these numbers. We weren't present when those numbers were calculated. So we have a budget, we have new plans, and I'd like to be able to have the opportunity to give you new numbers in terms of loss. But yes, most definitely, I mean, the coal storage piece is something that we definitely want to be part this project because it is revenue generating and can contribute to the operation costs [31:05] Wayne Mallar: I don't think so, thank you. That's about it. Yes, well, the coal storage is interesting because that wasn't in the original plan, right? That wasn't in the plan you submitted to get the grants, correct? No, I think it was. I don't believe so. Not the first time we saw Nevada coal storage, it had early iterations. I think it was the second phase if I remember. Correct me, please correct me if I'm [31:28] Joseph Leonard: wrong, council, but I believe the cold storage was always initially, wasn't it? I have to say it to [31:33] Wayne Mallar: believe it, but anyway, my problem I have is that, and I'm not picking on you, Brigadette, but because we're saving money and not building this project is what we have to do. Whether they don't like it, that's not my problem, and I'm not going to build something that no one's going to come to and no [31:53] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): one's going to use. Understood. I just, I just think it's important to recognize that, just to state the facts, right, that we'll lose credibility, right? We are an entity that had this project as a priority for over 10 years, and so we, so NBRC, Northern Border Regional Commission, has given the city of Bangor other grants, and I just think, and I've had those conversations where when we don't utilize them, it kind of, it doesn't look great. I'm [32:27] Wayne Mallar: sure they'd rather have us as, what's that? I'm sure they'd rather have us utilize them and be successful than utilize them and fail. Sure, but we're not responsible to the group that gave us the money. We're responsible to the taxpayers in the city, and I can't justify the cost right now [32:45] Joseph Leonard: to the taxpayers. Andrea Leary, do you have a statement or query? Yeah, I think I would just like to step back a little bit because economic development is good for the city from a tax revenue perspective. It increases the value properties in the city, it attracts. It attracts businesses to the city, it attracts families to the city. So whether the Central Kitchen is a good project or not, I think we are always going to want to be a city on an upward trajectory as it relates to economic development. And that is going to always require investment from our budget, even during the new years when the budget is tight, because if we don't make those investments, we're going to go [33:38] Wayne Mallar: from an upward trajectory to a downward. But only if we can successfully feel it's going to be, and I don't see that yet. Okay. [33:50] Joseph Leonard: Counselor Fish, 20 something people interested? [33:56] Carolyn Fish: It was a casual interest or serious interest? How would you rate the interest of the list of [34:03] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): People you have it ranged, some were curious and some said if you had it built today I would be your first tenant. So we had, we had a right, a wide range of interest. What percentage would you [34:18] Carolyn Fish: guess would be serious, if you had to guess, would be serious? [34:26] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): I would say probably at least half were very serious and I do think that there's many businesses out there that have them voice their interests and we did, we do anticipate that there would be a significant waiting list for this because there's only so many businesses that we could fit into 13,000 square feet. I do, I want to mention on this list and we'll send this to you one of, we've gotten a lot of interest from, if everyone's familiar with Korean dads, so Korean dads is a incubator and some incubator design in VZ and so they have very small space and so that entity allows for businesses to start but they quickly grow out of that space and so we've gotten a lot of businesses to express their interest to say hey we would love to know when you guys are going to open because we would love because that would be growth for them right they started in this small area in small space and they would eventually come to Bangor and economic development a big piece of it is business attraction so bringing our businesses to the city, bringing businesses to the city. In addition, I mean, we've had conversations with people that wanted to re, to wanted to, wanted to move to Bangor that left and particularly a business in Spain that wanted to come back to Bangor. They were graduates of UMaine. They have a, what is it, a Brazilian restaurant. They asked us about our commercial kitchen. Again, I think that because it's been such a long project, we're not seeing, the 20 businesses is great, right? But we're not seeing all of the interest. And I think that the flood gates will open once we are significantly in motion, should the project move forward? [36:30] Joseph Leonard: If I can just say really quick, and one of the things that I think that was never a topic when this was being discussed last decade was the current situation we find ourselves in right now, which is a lot of produce has increased very sharply. A lot of facilities to manufacture and prepare, in general, has increased sharply as well. Well, and there are businesses right now that are looking for other avenues of approach to doing this circle of culinary businesses that we are bashing for already. For me, personally, this has only made it more realistic for this project to be successful because, and again, I can't really separate my path and my experience with this, but being someone who has been in the downtown nightlife scene, the downtown restaurant scene, seeing how much struggle that is going on right now in our restaurant scene, in our bar scene, we do need all the assistance that we can get in order to maintain that specific type of culture while on top of that providing other revenue sources for the city as well. And so again, I know I'm just continuously pumping my own support from this as I've always supported since being on council, but I think if there ever was a time to have a commercial kitchen, I mean, now is the most opportune time for that. I know, I know there's a lot of questions regarding our operational costs and how to go forward with it, but in order to preserve the culture and history that, again, I'm sorry, this is just such a personal issue for me, this culture that's so important to me, maintaining our restaurant and our nightlife and our small business culinary scenes in the Penobscot area, this is a lifeline for a lot of people that are currently having a lot of struggles with the current economy, but also for foodies and culinary artists that have wanted to get into this field, but they just can't even afford to even have a food truck, which is one of the most cost-effective means to having a culinary business in the first place. So I guess all I can really say for myself in this conversation, hearing all the different types of conversations that we've had over the years, that to me, the need has never been more dire than right now. Now. Even when this conversation was happening early on in the 2000s, early 2000s, the need has only become more and more increasing. By the time we implement any type of facility like this, the demand for it is just going to increase over a period of time. The more that we give funding for a enterprise that allows us to preserve our own heritage, the more our own local citizens are going to utilize that on top of anyone else who wants to provide more culinary arts into the scenes, which I'm always happy to see. But anyway, I'm kind of talking a lot off the cuff, but it's, it's personally, I see this more viable like today than it was when we initially put on. Anyway, Councilor Mahler. [40:31] Wayne Mallar: Well, all I'm going to say is hopefully with the information that I get, I may change my mind. I may not. I'm not guaranteeing anything, but I need the information. Are [40:42] Joseph Leonard: there any other questions or feedback that counselors would like to provide back to staff or staff? [40:50] Daniel Carson: do you have anything else i guess counselor i'm just wondering if you have any data on food service businesses already engaged in incubator models and how they fare compared to the rest of their industry which is notoriously volatile when i was a bank manager for a decade i watched more restaurants than anything close and i mean not just new ones and hundred-year-old restaurants in Boston closed because they just failed at business and so I'm wondering if we have a sense of any data available that tells me whether or not businesses in these incubators do any better because the food service industry is it's not very great and so I have an investment concern around that unless we can show that they do better Otherwise, then we're investing in businesses that don't usually do well, in that sense. [42:00] Joseph Leonard: Unless there's any other comments that anyone else would like to add, I know that you wanted feedback from us, and is there anything else that you need from us at this point in time? I'm hearing right now that there's some more questions that counselors would like to have answers. [42:24] Carollynn Lear: It would be good maybe to just verify what information you want brought back, see if there's national statistics about success rates, more information on bonding costs, have a conversation with school department. More examples from businesses that started an incubator and then went on, you know, to either a food truck or, a, or restaurant. [43:00] Lisa Goodwin: I think that's it. [43:03] Carollynn Lear: There are other things that should be on the list. [43:06] Lisa Goodwin: Oh, no, that's fine. [43:08] Carollynn Lear: I want to make sure we get their list gross the one thing was [43:12] Wayne Mallar: We know that Portland not running theirs. They have someone else. Are we going to be running it? Are we going to hire someone to run it? I know the person you're looking at now is someone in the construction stage I understand that right after it's built. Are we going to be running it? Or are we going to have a company come in and run it that knows what they're doing? [43:32] Carollynn Lear: I mean it seems like the ones that are successful do have a company that runs it for them Sort of like what we do at the cross-seller. [43:45] Joseph Leonard: Okay. Oh, yes. So as a reminder, where we are on this is that this came up because you had an item on the council agenda that got pulled, correct? Correct. Because there were questions. So I think we want, I don't know that we need a vote, but I think you want direction on whether that should appear on the next agenda or if we should continue to hold it. Sure, correct, so if there are any additional questions that counselors have, please for that either to myself and or director Krieg so that we can get those answers to you as soon as possible. Personally speaking, I was getting into tonight thinking that a lot of outlying questions would be answered, and then regardless of the outcome, we would take a vote and then decide to move it on to next committee. Unless it's in doubt and we need those questions answered beforehand, I would personally rather we get a vote out and then if there's any questions that can be answered, they can be answered either at a special meeting for a workshop or EEE specifically for this topic and or when we're getting ready for that to vote. If that's amendable or if there are a majority of the councillors on the committee that would rather wait for that questions and answers that come before, I would entertain a motion on this item. I [45:41] Carolyn Fish: do have a question, I may, sure, before we do that, this has to go, if it's going to be bonded it has to go, so even if we would it have to do for six million, it's being funded through the ed fund [45:59] Carollynn Lear: so it's not being funded by the capital fund, I'm not sure, and I don't know amount wise [46:07] Joseph Leonard: yeah, I'm not sure, one percent of the optimal budget, what needs to go to bond, all right [46:13] Carolyn Fish: so it may be, I'm just thinking no matter that we'd have to decide by a certain time, not it, right, so that's kind of a important question. Okay, I think I have my questions [46:29] Wayne Mallar: okay, you have one more question, Wayne? No, I didn't, I was just going to move that we postpone this to the next business and economic development [46:37] Joseph Leonard: okay, I have a motion to put phones, do I have a second on that? Myself, you would second it, okay, so we have a motion and a second, discussion, when would it, when would it come back, so we'd be [47:00] Carolyn Fish: waiting in two weeks, but we could have our answers, questions answered before then, we go to council the week after, so three weeks, okay [47:16] Susan Faloon: so yes, I'm just going to say none of my questions are anything that I need to have answered before making a decision, so well [47:26] Joseph Leonard: We have a motion a second unless there's any other questions of to postpone this for next BED or who a roll call vote Councilor Malik yes Council Carson yes Councilor Faloon yeah Councilor Fish yes I don't know. So that is 3 to 5 to postpone it to the next BDD. And I guess I just want to reiterate before we move on to the next items. Please if you have any questions, please just get them to myself or Ann as soon as possible. Even if it's the day before. [Lisa Goodwin: I want] to make sure that we can actually get this forward so that we can actually get some work on a project that has been on well before sue were you on this council when this is originally going on so it's been on for a while and i just want to make sure that we don't keep having questions go on tacked on at every single meeting over and over for this particular thing so please get any and all questions that you have for this item to myself and or Anne as soon as possible with that said any other comments or questions before we move on to the next item okay [Lisa Goodwin: I guess] we're we're going to move and sing to the rest of the agenda and you know item one was the annual reports for store presentation funding for it and we can do that throughout [49:23] Michael Beck: i just i'm sorry the executive session on here was in the event you wanted more detail [49:32] Joseph Leonard: about the individuals who had inquired with interest in the central kitchen project budget and so we can either not do that at all there's no need to get you know individual name next time we probably shouldn't switch to a different topic and then I know no you're absolutely right and I just assumed that I was going to die so yeah no I think that's probably preferred that we actually have the discussion for like do we need to do a roll call and then vote to not go into executive session then oh gosh no I think no you could [50:05] Carollynn Lear: just not have it on the next agenda okay so we'll share it then we'll shift that to the right thank [50:10] Lisa Goodwin: you so much manager lee for bringing that up all right okay so i'll just go over all the [50:19] Michael Beck: Meetings more reports here because that's for division commission actions. Most of this is appropriateness. They did work with staff at a workshop later this year for around time to talk about the elements of the preservation code, and we've been using one of our projects to work on this amendment, so we're doing that in the next few months. And then we also did complete phase four survey for the food streets on some state street framework range, but those were the main highlights of that question. For planning board, most of their work was devoted here. That was, they ended up having quite a few films actually. They did 54 actions total, that just, but most of them are considered what is on the summit. We had a lot of, much of the states through just about 120 agencies, and broadway has been most development so far, zoning applicating development. Also they did look at the technical approach and work to vote and development code update, and then we did have some test changes such as clarifying different things and permits and adding new use in the rrna district. And then the conjoined mars management commission was also very light. There's, there hasn't been a lot of development in general, and that the job development is owned, so they don't see a lot to complete because we haven't won this past year. And then they also just wanted to talk about how their previous recommendations on seeing [52:30] Joseph Leonard: that, but certainly you need a motion forward, yeah, forward to council. Thank you. So if there are no questions or comments, I would take a motion. So move, second. I have a motion and a second. Unless there was a discussion, and that's, it's doubted this will have passage. Okay, yeah, it's just to talk about [53:06] Michael Beck: a potential amendment to our short-term rental ordinance to allow. We had brought this to council previously. There wasn't an interest at that time because there were concerns about the fact that I'm planning for communities, but a few, you know, there's a call that did request that we bring it back, so we did have a report and the planning board wasn't able to make that change. And just to give some background though, we adopted the city adoptive part [53:49] Unidentified speaker (Economic Development Director): into, and at that time we didn't have regulations. [53:52] Michael Beck: So we expressly disallowed them, but then we adopted short term regulations in 2023. And I think maybe it was oversized at that time to not allow them in tiny home parks, because we didn't disallow them in pain infection home parks, so that's how that discrepancy came up. But anyway, moving forward, we have slightly adjusted our recommendation where, if you do want to make the change, we would recommend limiting the number of short-term rentals ends getting apart to 30 percent, four to five, whichever is less, because we have the current rent cap on five, and we would recommend doing the same thing for the parks, and that would only apply to models where there's a single owner for the whole park, because it doesn't really work when you have individual owners in a park. It's kind of like how we treat condos right now. We don't have a cap on them, like for example a condo building, we just have the cap on five per individual or operator, and we also have the city wide cap at one percent of the city's calling units [55:07] Lisa Goodwin: so if any questions on these questions or comments i [55:14] Joseph Leonard: i guess i would just state really quickly that i'm heavily biased against short-term rentals. I don't see them at all economically being helpful in regards to our housing stock, and I can see this being a slippery slope. I'm not even a fan of short-term rentals in our manufactured housing personally, but that's just me. I'm just one counselor, so if anyone else has any thoughts on this [55:48] Carolyn Fish: so please feel free yes council fish i do like short-term rentals being in the real estate market. I know a great deal of those that exist in the majority of them, there's a small number, and i understand the concern when you get into outside interest, especially kind of corporate managed, but a lot of these are everyday families that usually get a property put a great deal of money into fixing them up. And they register them now. So they go through code, a lot of them have security, and they bring families in, they go to the concerts, and they go to the restaurants, and they come back, some of them have come several times to visit Bangor, and have later decided to either invest in a business, open a business, move to Bangor, buy a house, so i think that there's a lot a lot of good, maybe more, actually i believe there's a lot more good than bad, and if we have short terms for mobile home parks i think it's only fear that we'd be fair with our ordinances and allow them for the tiny home parks as well [57:02] Susan Faloon: Generally I would agree with you, but I think that also, like, when we have medical professionals coming in, they're looking for places to stay for a short period of time, and we need them. So I think that's probably another reason why they're a good idea, but I do like the idea of limiting the numbers. [57:22] Lisa Goodwin: Any other thoughts on this? Okay. [57:27] Joseph Leonard: Is there a, unless there's any other questions or comments, do I have a motion on this item? So move, second. Unless there's any other discussion, I guess I put this in the down, so I guess I do a roll call vote. Counselor Maller, yes. Council Carson, that's balloon, yes. Cancer fish, yes. And I am a no. So this will move on to council. All right, next up the comprehensive plan implementation. I just want to go into all 50, please. [58:15] Michael Beck: So, yeah. So, yeah. So, in 2024, we started this document to track, you know, the actions that we've taken and other staff and other firms taken so far to implement that plan, and so we have updated that now, and we will continue to keep that updated as we move forward, so yeah. [58:50] Joseph Leonard: Any questions on the policies? Anyone? I guess I, had a few questions on the top my head, but when the city's tracking these implementations, are we, is there a mechanism for tracking the effectiveness or quality of how the effectiveness of these policies are implemented? Actually more important question is, are there any issues with these policies of how they might actually counteract with each other? [59:33] Michael Beck: Do you mean our policies in the conference? Yes, working in opposition. Yes, I wouldn't think so, because I mean all of the policies are working toward the vision analysis, and I honestly I think a lot of the policies work together, and sometimes there's a lot of overlap between, it's one thing that might tackle this policy also tackles this policy. [59:57] Joseph Leonard: I don't really see anything where they would compete. I didn't really either. I just, that was the first thing that came to my mind, anytime that there's a multitude of different things that we're sometimes not by our own direct action, sometimes there are unintended consequences by having multiple different policies being implemented that might interact with, say, something that we implemented like in the 1990s, for example. So I more so ask in regards to that, but I didn't think from everything that I read, I didn't really see anything that might. [1:00:38] Carollynn Lear: Have been an issue, but I just want to ask you, yeah, okay. Sometimes at the five-year mark, a community will sort of take a step back and look at the comp plan to say, do all of these things still matter to us? You know, do an evaluation of those policies to make sure that they're current with, you know, because things change, right? We've seen that. So we plan to do that, the five-year mark, you know, how are things that we implemented going, and also the things that we [1:01:14] Susan Faloon: Haven't done yet, do we still want to do these? Yes. Are these in order of like how they're prioritized on here, or are they just kind of in order in which they were added to the list? Yes, like, okay, thank you. Unless [1:01:36] Joseph Leonard: There's any other questions. I know this wasn't really, is there anything that you'd like to hell up before I'll let you know? Okay, that's me. Thank you. Thank you. And since we're not doing the executive stuff. [1:02:02] Carollynn Lear: Oh, I do have one announcement, which is good news. Jeff Libri, who is an inspector of the code office, has been promoted to the director of code enforcement. I'll start on Monday day next week, and so we're very excited about having that internal promotion available. Coincidentally [1:02:26] Michael Beck: And unrelatedly, he was our employee of the month for January [1:02:33] Carolyn Fish: So these had a good month [1:02:35] Lisa Goodwin: I do remember that person there. Oh, thank you so much. We did that before we finished