Bangor committee backs fare hike, debates homeless encampment plan

[0:13] Michael Beck: we are live all right good evening it is 6 35 p.m it's the start of the government operations committee i am committee chair michael beck and also on the community here is counselor mailer counselor me counselor bridge and counter walker also joining us at the table are councilor leonard council chair haas council carson this is city manager cornelia donald and city manager carolyn lear okay well let's get right into it anything on the agenda is the community connector player setting discussion [0:52] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): yes thank you 'll have to forgive me i'm also running the cameras so that's kind of exciting So the table is Lori Lynn Scott, long time Community Connector employee who's worked a lot on this project and coordination. With BACS, is our regional planning organization for transportation. And so they have planning funds available for them. And so they actually helped us with this fair structure study that was presented last month. And so in response to that conversation, we did go and compile more information and put together a pretty lengthy memo, sorry for the extra reading, for everyone that we hope provided more context in terms of why we're asking to move forward with the proposed fair structure that would include increasing the base single ride fare from $150 to $2 an hour [1:56] Angela Walker: Or not an hour, excuse me, a ride, [1:57] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): I'm so used to saying an hour, as well as replacing paper tickets with electronic methods, free transfers, fare capping, and of course the free fare access for the college and university ID holders. So having said that, I'm actually, I'm happy to touch on anything, and of course, Laurie and I can answer questions. But I know that there was some conversation last time about both potentially actually offering free fare for Community Connector, but also like how this ties into like operations, if you will, in terms of the fact that we do not currently have Saturday service. So I'm going to punt that real quick to Councilor Beck to let me know what direction you'd like to head in. [2:48] Michael Beck: Well, I mean, through the whole section here about the free fare, because let's talk about that. I guess, first, if they may have any questions about what was in the memo on that. But I did have one question. You talked about in there about how the limited ridership on the previous fare free days resulted in modest increase in ridership. Is that anecdotal? Or do we have like statistics to show what kind of increase we saw? [3:15] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): Yeah, we do keep ridership on free fare day. [3:19] Michael Beck: Do we have that available? Yeah, I don't have it. We'll get, okay, we don't have it, sorry. [3:25] Angela Walker: We don't have it in front of us. We can certainly set that up. Yeah, sure. Any [3:34] Wayne Mallar: other questions? Quick question, sure. The increase in the budget would be how much for the year? The initial cost of the equipment, the technology, and the operating costs, what other costs do you have? [3:54] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): I'm sorry, are you asking for the cost to actually move toward the system for technology [3:59] Angela Walker: or are you asking what the permanent cost move to this program would be? [4:05] Speaker F (unidentified): Yeah, no problem. [4:07] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): So the initial one-time cost, we're estimating it between $130,000 and $170,000 to buy the hardware and the software to get that going. And then annually, 30 to 32,000 annually to, you know, for the licenses to keep it going. That's an estimate we have not, you know, obviously not to bid or anything. So we haven't had negotiations with that. And if you're looking for revenue, we forecast a projection of up to 800,000 and that's just a forecast. Up from 500,000. From 500,000, yeah. With that increase to the fare. [4:45] Angela Walker: So when are you planning to initiate this program? Well first if this committee approves [4:54] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): that fair structure change there would be a council order next council meeting and that would kick off the process on our side to put out the RFPs and whatnot. But if I had to guess it would likely be what January next year or you think we could with the new fiscal year? Oh I don't think in July, maybe in December or January, like you said, it will depend on their award to the contractor. And there's also, I mean, there's that whole, the internal process, but then there's also rollout, education, making sure the technology is out there functioning. And so I guess nobody wants to hear January a year from now, but the reality is more than likely by the time we get through everything and make sure it's as smooth of a transition as possible for everybody, it is likely to be months down the road. [5:44] Susan Deane: What is the likelihood of the increased revenue bringing back Saturday service perhaps later evening service through the Sunday service? Is that something that I know it's not all based finances that fall on the availability of drivers but would that increase will we be able to pay our drivers more or will we get more qualified people and could we bring back Saturday service and driving and service? [6:08] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): of us i definitely think that 's a part of the puzzle or it could be we all know for example that when we increase wages that has an impact to our tax dollars as well as the other communities that pay in because of the how the formula works for the local share but is there like a direct correlation that i could project numbers out for that no because, you know, to your point, Councilor Deane, the issue we're having with Saturday service is more about the lack of qualified CDL drivers for those positions. And we all know that we're going through negotiations coming up this year. And so hopefully those will help us move in the right direction. So, yeah, I guess all I can really say is I think it could be a piece of the puzzle. And I do think that with the projected revenue increases, certainly the more revenue that we can bring in, the better off the system is in terms of being sustainable. And because I think, you know, in the years that I've been here, the biggest piece of feedback that I have consistently heard about the community connector is folks want longer hours, more service. And so it's kind of the chicken or the egg in some ways, because you know you have to invest in the system, which we've been doing consistently for a few years now, in order to, you know, get the service to the point where people are willing to give up their vehicles to take the bus more frequently. And so but you don't want to do that until you have the ridership. And so it can be a little bit of a, you know, that. So what I like to say, that I think it could be beneficial and helpful, I think yes, anytime we have increased revenue, there's opportunity there. [7:59] Speaker H (unidentified): I don't think it was in here. I read through all this. But when did those schedules go away, the later schedules in the week and the Saturday schedule? How long has that not been happening? You mean Saturday service? Saturday service, yeah. And then the evening, they used to be like later evening. No, they're never there, never [8:24] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): were. Okay, which, you know, the later evenings, I think one of the reasons why we hear so much about that is because folks can often get where they need to go later in the day, but they have no way to get back. And also one thing that I've learned as well is that a lot of like the hospitals and stuff, they work like seven to seven, for example, and so they're outside that window too. But no, we have not had later evening hours in the past. That's not, that has not changed. Saturday service has actually come And gone a couple times now, unfortunately, since I've been here. How long has it been out, since October of 24? So we're a [9:03] Speaker H (unidentified): little over a year. Okay, that's good. So why did that, was it primarily because there weren't [9:10] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): drivers, or was it because of ridership numbers? No, it is simply because we never want to be in a position where a person is at a bus stop waiting for a bus that's not coming. And so we, there's been many days, and it's always a very difficult decision to make, but when you have dispatchers and in some cases even like Lori herself out there driving a bus to make sure it gets where it needs to go, it becomes untenable. And even though we're trying, like, in-house training and all sorts of other tactics in order to help get our driver numbers up, nothing is a quick fix. And there's a lot of, I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole, but sort of do in that one of the bandwagons I like to get on is a lot of things kind of came together at once to kind of create the perfect storm, if you will, in terms of where we're at right now. So a lot of things have changed just in the last handful of years. The first and foremost, legalized marijuana. We, a lot of people gave up their CDLs and things as soon as that became available. And so the pool is just simply smaller. Also, there's no funnel anymore. Like Eastern Maine Community College, for example, had a CDL program for a long time. It went away and they have been trying to bring it back, but unsuccessfully at least to date. And NTI charges like ten thousand dollars for somebody to get their CDL. And then the federal motor carriers added additional requirements in that prohibited us from doing what we had always done in terms of the quick sort of training and testing to get somebody their CDL, and instead requires school or classroom time as well as a significant amount of road and range time before you can even take your test. So those are just three factors, for example, that have led to a big demand in our area in particular, but actually across the country, for CDL drivers. [11:11] Speaker F (unidentified): A couple of things you mentioned that it seemed like a long time before this could start. But you also mentioned you have a lot of education to do for the riders. You have to get the program out there so people really understand it, and I think you've got one chance to get this right with a new program like this. So taking it a little bit slower, doing the education, getting the people really acclimated to what it means and how they can navigate the system is going to be really important. And I didn't really think that December or January sounded that far off, not if we're going [11:55] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): going to do it right the first time. Yeah, and that's a, that's a really good point, and I do, I personally, I won't speak for others, but I have hoped myself that actually allowing like mobile ticketing and doing away with that paper systems will actually remove a lot of barriers for individuals. It may actually also help increase ridership. I personally, I'll use myself as an example, my niece lived in Bangor, wanted to learn how to ride the bus, she found it so overwhelming, and she could never bring herself to ask the driver for a transfer ticket, so she would pay for another ticket because she just, she wanted, quite honestly, and I don't, I couldn't say if it's generational or whatever, but she really won't talk to anybody, right? She just wanted to get where she needed to go. And so if I could tell her tomorrow that you could just use your mobile phone in order to pay your ticket and get on, I think she'd be really excited. So [12:48] Speaker F (unidentified): out the other question is, it seems difficult to get your arms around the ridership as far as the actual numbers of people that are riding now. Is this system going to help? [13:03] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): So actually, that's part of that technology package that we've been talking about now for, I think it's been over a year now that we've been working through that and implementing it. It's called an automatic passenger counter that has been installed on all the buses. Lori can speak to more specifics about it, but she's told me many times how difficult it is calibrating it, and she can't use those numbers yet for the national reporting that we do to the feds just yet because of all the nuance around that, but it is installed. Oh, it's installed, and it is functioning, and it is working. Working. So just to give you another piece of education on that, once you put APCs in a bus, like anything, you cannot just start using them and then use that data to send into NTD. You have to have it certified. So just today spent three hours on a learning webinar on APC certification. So we have to get them certified. And when we, after we get them certified, then we get to use the data. So it's not only getting them on the bus, getting it right calibrated, then we have to go back to FTA say, here's our information, is that okay to use? And we're just waiting for that. Yeah, and NTD is the National Transit Database that FTA or the Federal Transit Administration uses. So yeah, but I will say that I think the biggest part of that hurdle has been overcome, and so we are really close to actually, because right now we're reliant on drivers to actually count based off of the tickets and things, so to be able to have that [14:41] Speaker F (unidentified): reliable system in place for, we're almost there. We get a lot of questions about that. Thank you. [14:47] Wayne Mallar: Quick question, if you bounce this off the towns that are involved with it, I actually really [14:54] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): really appreciate you asking that question. And I bet they will, too. Yes, they voted, we have a transit committee that backs is very kind and facilitating that meeting for us that all the partners are invited and included on. And they did vote to support this change of air structure. In fact, I think the words overdue were used. [15:17] Wayne Mallar: The system you're using now to keep track to track the patrons, we won't buy a new system, or is it something we already had, and is that reflected [15:27] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): in the 130 to 170 000? No, that the automatic passenger counter is part of a completely separate transit technology that was purchased years ago at this point, and we have been working to implement. I think that was federal grants, right? Yeah, that was, that was grant money that paid for that as well. But it was part of the larger transit package that was also like the automatic. Oh, what's the meters? Yeah, thank you. And I'll see haters, as well as the like how you can download an app and see where the bus is and where the closest bus stop is, that was all part of one transit package. And this fair study structure was meant to help guide us in terms of what will make the most sense in terms of integrating it and streamline the fares and options for folks [16:27] Michael Beck: so I had a couple of questions, so the other town they voted in support of the fair increase regarding the technology, that's the decision we have to make, and then they'll share the costs with us. Yeah, so [16:39] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): The transit committee, the other partners, they know that the community connector is owned and operated by the city of Bangor and they pay a portion of the local share. So obviously we receive a lot of federal dollars and because we're a smaller agency we can use those federal dollars to offset our operating costs unlike much larger community agencies. And so what's left is the local share portion and so that is based on what's called revenue service hours which is essentially the time it takes right for a bus to get where it needs to go including the transfer for time like in inside Bangor. And so that calculation I think was pre-me about 2019 I think we put that in place if I remember correctly and so Bangor share of that is about 61 because as you might imagine we have routes that are just within Bangor but like the route that goes to Hamden for example obviously starts in Bangor and goes out and comes back but that whole area is considered part of their revenue hours so like this hundred seventy [17:45] Michael Beck: thousand dollar figure for the technology piece and paperless tickets we wouldn't pay the whole hundred seventy thousand you just pay 61% you [17:54] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): don't have to pay any of it no because I was awarded a grant to cover [17:58] Michael Beck: all of it yes it will be grant funded and then the ongoing fee the thirty two thousand dollars annually is that maybe I saw the presentation on was there a percentage fee involved for them to want the money is that included that 32 000 or is that set it is [18:18] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): separate and you know without having the award out to a contractor you really won't know what that user freeze are but those user fees will just be an operating cost and that will be shared equally with all the partners yeah and that's because you're using like their network they're basically do it they've taken a lot of the administrative burden for that right now we have a lot of administrative burden in terms of tracking all that with different vendors across Bangor a lot broader and so if I can't say it would be a wash but there would certainly be [18:50] Michael Beck: A trade-off there. Sure, I mean, the math on it, I mean, I would assume it takes more than 25 hours a week to manage all that. Yeah, because that's the break-even point, you know. We're, yeah, you know, we're spending more than 25 hours and doing this system actually saves the city money, so that's, that's good to hear, I guess. The last question I had was regarding the, with the Passio app, the one that shows where things are. Will this integrate, like will people be able to use just one app to take care of their payments for their tickets and track the buses, or will it still be, it will have to be two different apps, one for the buses, one for part of the RFP that will go [19:31] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): out, it has to. Okay, yeah, I just don't, I think we're a small enough system that we don't need to one will be sufficient. Yeah, I was pretty adamant about that. Me too, so [19:47] Michael Beck: So was there more, or at this point, do you need a motion to move the motion to move the fair increase in the technology change on the full council? [19:58] Susan Deane: So moved. Second. Motion and a second. [20:03] Michael Beck: Any objection? OK, [20:08] Angela Walker: then we'll move on to full council. Thank you very much. [20:10] Michael Beck: Thank you. I just have one last quick question while I'm thinking about this. I always have to ask, where are we on implementing Google Maps? [20:18] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): Oh, I'm working on that also. I have not forgot. I have it. I promise. Okay, thank you. We'll make sure to come back and let you know. [20:27] Michael Beck: All right, well, I'll move this on then. [20:31] Susan Deane: I'm sorry. I just wanted to know how many buses we have. [20:39] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): We have 23 buses, 24 buses. Drivers, on paper, we are really close to fully staffed. However, we do have a number of folks out on medical and some people going through the training program, but I don't have [20:56] Angela Walker: the exact number, but I can get that for you. Yes, in the same vein of those, the launch buses, are those the small vans? They are the large 30 or 35 foot [21:10] Unidentified speaker (Lori Lynn Scott / BACS Representative): But buses, we have eight ADA paratransit vans. Questions? [21:21] Daniel Carson: Counselor? Yeah, Carson. It's a comment that I think it's important that as we're moving to increase technology, thinking about fares that are sustainable and make sense, we should recognize that when we short our service, we create the situation where we are not making as many limits as we can. People will not ride the bus If it does not match their working class lifestyle, if they cannot get to the places that they need to go, and that creates half of the problem that we have. So I would encourage us if we're raising fares to also think about how we can expand service, even if we don't necessarily have that revenue yet, because it's going to be a driver. All [22:09] Michael Beck: right, moving on to number two, the Advisory Committee on racial equity inclusion and human right statement and request for a council order directing the city manager to establish a trend a transitional safe outdoor space for unsheltered residents and i believe acre chair the bride is here and vice chair hello good evening [22:35] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): happy new year oh all right well thank you again for meeting with us and hearing from us we appreciate it in our mid-December racial equity inclusive and human rights committee meeting what we did was try to identify a proposal that could help usher along some changes so that we can see the changes that we had wanted hoped to see when this was when we thought that originally the December 19th deadline for changing or rather moving folks out of the railroad encampment was still we thought at that point it had been postponed we're now in a very different place but I do think that the proposal still stands because what this proposal does is it creates a sustainable operational plan that Bangor can enact and use from here on out so that every six months we are not identifying folks living in an encampment, living without basic necessities, and having to be moved from that space over and over and over again, causing lots of fiscal waste, loss of life opportunities, these life-saving measures that we have in place when people are in community. So what we did was we put together what we hoped would essentially act as an order to give the city manager the ability to identify individuals, whether that be staff, whether that be partners in Bangor, whether that be nonprofit organizations that could come together and actually create a sustainable, safe outdoor space. And this is a model that's used across the nation. I think with a lot of times when we're we're addressing individuals that are unhoused. There's so many resources that exist in the world. We do not need to create the wheel. And this is not a new wheel. This is something that is being used in many different areas across the nation. But what it does is it creates a safe outdoor space that could centralize all of the resources for folks that are unhoused, so that we're not scattering police responses, emergency medical calls, public cleanup up over and over and over again. Outside of the fact that it's proven that when folks are in community, especially individuals that are experiencing homelessness, which likely often overlaps with drug use, there's more of a supportive community that is familiar with Narcan can provide life-saving measures. We see a really big decrease in the number of resources, the number of times we have to use city resources to support individuals when they are in a community space. So this proposal will not only create that safe outdoor space, it will also give the city manager the ability to appoint individuals that can actually track these outcomes and measure these costs. Part of this proposal is actually understanding what those numbers look like so that we have a really clear idea of how to continue to move folks to stability. This, I want to be really clear, is not like a eight-minute shelter replacement. This isn't like an outdoor utopia that folks are going to live in and we're going to give them everything that they need and, yay, they hit the jackpot by getting the space, right? This is a place where folks can charge their phone, have running water to take a shower, and move towards stability. None of those things you can do, you can't go to a job interview. You can't, you know, work on your recovery when you don't know where you're going to sleep, when your stuff is constantly being moved by other individuals, when you know seemingly at a whim your entire personal belongings can just be bulldozed away. So these are tried and true proven methods that gives us a space to provide support, harm reduction, disease monitoring, address the HIV outbreak, really streamline our resources, and will be more cost effective than the cleanups of encampments that we have to do over and over again when we're not giving any direction and support. And so the reason that it is a, we framed it as a legislative directive policy is because we were, or policy directive, excuse me, because we were like, oh, we're gonna beat this December 19th timeline and this is gonna be a solution for folks to move from the railroad encampment to a meaningful space. Obviously, unfortunately, that's no longer an option, but getting folks back to a place where they can have a stable spot to land, have at the very minimum access or in walking distance to medical care and facilities and act as a temporary and transitional support service, it's gonna cost less, it's gonna improve public outcomes for all Bangor citizens and it is going to definitely help streamline this time and energy of our law enforcement and emergency services. This is in direct alignment with our public health experts and advisory bodies and it creates convoluted and so I know that obviously anyone that was listening for the last hour knows that addressing and homelessness is a priority of the city. And I think that this is a clear way to take an actionable step that will address those issues in a meaningful way based on not only what we've heard from the nation and national resources, but also the folks that are living, you know, that were living at the railroad encampment and what they want. So I know you've had this policy directive in front of you, if there are questions that you have that we might be able to answer or additional information, both Shane and I are well versed in this and are happy to in any way. Questions? [28:49] Wayne Mallar: What's the anticipated cost? [28:52] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): So the anticipated cost, I actually don't have those numbers. And let me just make sure I don't have those numbers because it would depend on when we put this together, It's very dependent on, this is sort of like a menu of options, right, in terms of what we're offering, in terms of being able to have operational governance on site, in terms of being able to have running water, trash removal, full-time staff. So those, depending on what the council decides would be the best way to move forward would depend on those costs. [29:36] Speaker K (unidentified): With the menu, you have prices. Correct? Yes. And I'd like to see the price. I'm happy to put those. [29:44] Wayne Mallar: Now, another quick question. Where in Maine and New England do they do this? [29:49] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): So I am not sure that they do it in New England. Shane, do you know if they have one in New [29:55] Speaker K (unidentified): England? I know that the Safe Outdoor Space has been. My next question would be, why are we so [30:01] Wayne Mallar: so anxious to do it if no one else in New England is doing? [30:04] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): I would counter with, why wouldn't we want to be a leader in actually developing change? [30:09] Wayne Mallar: I'd counter with, if you come up with the money, we'll do it. [30:13] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): But we already are spending the money, counselor. We already are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on individuals that are unhoused just by bulldozing their stuff and moving them around. If we're able to identify the funds now and put it forward in a way that actually is cost-reductive, you don't know it's cost-reductive. [30:33] Wayne Mallar: Do we, you haven't noticed any costs, I can, I determine cost deduction if I don't know what the [30:40] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): costs are. Yeah, no, that is actually a very fair point, and I appreciate that. I just, I want us to keep an open mind of the fact that we've in June spent a hundred and twenty thousand dollars. It's [30:53] Speaker K (unidentified): not going to cost more than that to have, you don't know that, is out of the air. I want to see it in [31:00] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): writing. I'm happy to get you that writing, counselor, but these are not numbers I'm pulling out of the air. This is actually from the Bangor city, Bangor Daily News has all of these numbers. [31:09] Michael Beck: You believe what the Bangor Daily News says? Just hold on, I'm going to see a gallery to stop making comments, please, so you can hear what's going on here. Comforting, this is not dissimilar from what [31:18] Susan Deane: we discussed immediately following the student that December 19th was the closure. What we found is that we could not come up with an area that was safe and ready for this. Yes, and I did post questions city manager about what are we currently spending on the other house compared to what something like this would be, and until we know that, I don't think we can make a decision, but we need to know, how does that compare? Because we are spending a considerable amount of money right now, but we don't know what that money is. It's a guess. We can go by a credit figure, but we're Bank of Maine, we're not San Francisco. It's probably considerably more than we even think. But we do have to have that figure. So someone, somewhere out there needs to extrapolate those numbers so we can figure out what we're spending. So we can then say, well if we move here, we may have to put in some infrastructure, it may cost a certain amount, but in the long run if we're [32:20] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): Saving money I don't see how this would be that. Yes, thank you very much, Counselor. And I in our advisory council or committee meeting rather, we did speak about what those options could be. And the reason again that we put this together is because, and again correct me if I'm wrong, City Manager, earlier, but the city can't go out and decide that this is going to be a space that's used for sanctioned encampments. It has to be a council approved. I think we would definitely be looking for council. Yes, so that is something that I think we would need to determine, you know, in our conversations that we've had with folks that were living at the encampment, with folks that, you know, came to our Racial Equity Inclusion and Human Rights meeting, shared that there are some viable places with access to water and trash removal that would appeal to folks that are currently unhoused. And so I think the question is like, and if you would like us to put those places together and come to you with those places and those numbers attached, we're happy to do that. But we can't do it without, that would be us saying this is what you're going to do, whereas this is a recommendation from us based [33:45] Carolyn Fish: on those practices. This is certainly something for us to take into consideration, but I think it's a little bit like putting the cart before the horse, because I think internally we need to sit down as a group of counselors and look already at what our resources are as far as our internal departments, what are our police and fire, public works, and all of the other, because there's not one department within our city core that isn't involved in some work time and resources dedicated to the in-house not to mention, you know, where the clearinghouse for applying for, we're very good at applying for and getting grants to the tune of 8 to 12 million dollars a year, and then we delegate these grants to other, you know, experts in the segmented departments throughout, you know, the unhousing and substance use addiction, and since we've been doing this, especially at the kind of shocking numbers we're doing, I read a letter from our foreign managers I mentioned before written in 2017, we could write that letter today. So $8 to $12 million, all the money we throw, all the things we've done, we have got to stop, put our heads together as a council, as the leaders, as business. We have the economic foundation as leaders to make sure that the entire city and all the time and money for this vulnerable group, and we're still getting it wrong. I think we need to step back, get together as leaders, look at what our internal departments are currently spending and doing for resources. Time, energy. Where can some departments maybe give more? Maybe there's something when we get together with them. But we need to look at our own department heads. And we need to also say, I'm going to be, what the hell's happening with all the hate to $1 million? You guys keep coming in here and telling us we're not getting it right. Just let me finish, please. And I have talked to a lot of people that have had outside, that's what I've been doing for six months, and cold climate temperatures with populations from 25 to 50 000 people and repeatedly I've gotten they have failed populations with 500 3 to 500 000 or better they have a better success rate because of that broader source of resources to get those health experts you know we've got a very small we're 32 000 and those experts that have that expertise to staff and manage and maintain, the bigger cities have that resource. Our hospitals don't even have the staffing. So I just see, I thank you for this. I know you're passionate about bringing suggestions and I think we should look at them, but I think together as a council, we need to look as leaders at ourself, at first of all, our internal departments, what we can and what we have for space, yeah what we're already spending where we're already outsourced we're overburdened what and I think we as a council have to come back and say this is what we can do this is what we have this is what we don't have and then if and then we have to have a better accounting and accountability you know this is like continuing to throw spaghetti on the wall and hoping something sticks and so far nothing's sticking so I thank you for this but I'm certainly not in position to vote for anything until we get together as a council and find out internally what we have where we're stressed internally as a city before I can consider [37:24] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): Thank you, thank you for your time. Enough, of course, counselor, thank you. May I just share really quickly? I know that this is long, but it does say in here, to your point, counselor, I completely agree with you that it seems like there's a lot of duplicative work being done between departments and nonprofits and the same thoughts being filled over and over again. No one's gonna disagree with that, so this also addresses that, giving an opportunity. And I mean, to be perfectly honest, it kind of lends itself perfectly to your next item of business, which is, you know, who are those people that could work on a task force that could help implement this and push us forward? Because you're exactly right, the city is stretched really thin and we are circling the drain here. And if there are things that individuals that we can bring in that are already doing this work and have these resources, that's a big part of it. I agree with you absolutely. [38:19] Speaker H (unidentified): Just a couple comments. I definitely do think there's still a need for a short-term solution like this because this is gonna come up again. These folks who are living at the railroad encampment are still out there and they are going other places. So I so I do kind of think we need something like this, but I do kind of agree with counselor Fish as well that and I think that this could probably be a really good jumping point for our task force that we're discussing putting together that like this would give them something that, you know, that they could kind of like work from among some other things that we've gotten that are all really good. [39:07] Daniel Carson: I'm generally in favor of an idea like this. I think that it does actually provide a solution to an ongoing issue. If no other solution, then people stop getting moved around. And then right, because they go from behind one business to behind a new business to behind a new business, we're just pissing off people in cycle. I wanted to say that I think it's important that the committee that gets formed takes up questions like this and that they do so slowly. We do not do good work when we rush and something that it took me a few council meetings, you know, because it's been a topic and every council meeting there are a line of people and they have a lot to say. And there is urgency. Clearly, we need to have a sense of urgency. But if we think back at the history of this question, city has done practically nothing in ever. So we are being asked to make a bunch of really big decisions, and we're being sort of poked and prodded and encouraged to do that super quick. And we don't do good work when we do it that way. We're not going to make good decisions. And so it feels good for me to want to say that tomorrow, I wish that there was a place that we could say to people, you can go and there will be running water and there's going. But if we do not take the time to really think through what that would look like and who the appropriate partners are going to be and how it's going to be successful, we will fail. And we will have failed for no other reason than we acted upon a sense of urgency. Emergency and you know before we knew what we were doing so we waited a decade what's not I would encourage us not to everything done tomorrow yes I agree with some of what you were saying [41:08] Angela Walker: At YouTube counselor fish I did have specific questions about this I was wondering like the same outdoor space is temporary and how do you have can we be presented with how who falls under that category like just you and you or you and you kind of like I want to know more about trans you transitional like it sounds like a lot of the resources that we already have but I'm more wondering if it's going to be temporary and it's going to be the bridge to permanent housing when units become available Like isn't that what we kind of sort of have like what's going to make this different what who's going to pick and choose which one of those people are going to come into the temporary place like just this person or just that person like I'm wondering if you could kind of clear that up a little bit yeah because I feel like we have a lot of these resources and we want to be sold on this idea this is something that we're gonna take and we're gonna be serious thank [42:22] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): You yes so I think that for the SOS specifically and its design it is well, again, to be perfectly honest, it's an emergency worker, right? And so it was developed as a direct response to beating that December 19th deadline. And in conversations that I've had with individuals that were living at the railroad encampment, there already is a, again, not only the individuals living at the railroad encampment, but also at a national level, there are so many systems in place for self-governance and self-operation that again in a perfect world the task force that is helping to usher in change and resources and opportunity for folks that are unhoused would help manage what those bear are not barriers what those Expectations look like based on safety, based on space, based on shared histories, based on a lot of different factors that are very well clear to individuals that work in this space. The problem that we were hearing and the reason that we came up with this as a, again, short-term, hopefully, emergency solution is that this is not the end-all be-all, like I don't want it to be perceived as like a space that exists forever. This is, if there are folks that we keep hearing, like I can't get into the shelter or my voucher isn't, there isn't housing for my, or there isn't housing for me to use my voucher. Or if I use my voucher, I have to drive all the way out to Holden and I don't have a ride back in to go to my job. This is a space where folks can be close to services, close to resources and have a little bit more of that flexibility if they weren't able to live in a space that they were identified to live is that you know wasn't something that they were able to do at that time given their state of mind and availability then this would be something that for the time being we have experts that in the city right now that if they can find the individuals that they're serving they can go to that one space and Be able to say like this is how we're going to make sure that you're on the right path to get out of this shared space that because it doesn't seem like if we did have all of these resources available I think yeah it's like there's still so many folks that aren't in those spaces so what can we do to at least make it safe and not move them every you know I [45:13] Speaker H (unidentified): Just had a quick comment to build on what comes to Carson said and that like there's a certain amount of liability that comes with setting something up that we are putting on us as a city too so when we do something really quickly like that like that's just a huge risk that we have to consider. [45:37] Wayne Mallar: The question I have is to say, daytime facility or is it a 24 hour day facility? 24 hours. So basically, it's housing for [45:48] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): Them. It's not indoors, though. It's like a sanctioned outdoors. [45:52] Wayne Mallar: It's the same thing they had at the brain. Yeah. Okay. Now the question I have is, are they still going to be allowed to do drugs and all that mess at this facility? [46:02] Speaker K (unidentified): Yeah, there will not be limitations. So what you want the city to do is condone drug use. [46:09] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): I think that is a really broad and unfair statement. It's not an unfair statement. They [46:17] Wayne Mallar: do drugs, don't they? They do. There are drugs. I said they're telling them to do drugs. Well, it's not about... I can't do drugs if I go downtown, can I? [46:27] Michael Beck: But you can also do drugs in your house yeah and so but this isn't their house well the model is they can't do it in public it's they have to do it within those their own confines of their place that's just the nature of substance so who's going to who's going to monitor it we expect our police [46:45] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): to monitor them out in the yard doing drugs can i just say from and again i fully understand your point i truly do i get where you're coming from and i wish that it were as simple as saying like no one can do drugs and then they didn't do drugs like I wish that was the world that we live in but we don't it's so much more complicated than that as an addictive disease the thing that we have going for us in a space where people are allowed to do drugs is that there are other drug users there that are familiar with what overdoses look like that are familiar with how to use Narcan we actually save so many more lives. And I understand that doesn't seem important. But saving the lives of individuals who are dealing with an addictive disorder is something that, as the Human Rights Committee, we have to do something to provide resources and to provide solutions. And I know it's not perfect. I fully understand that, but substance use disorder is confusing and it sucks. [47:57] Wayne Mallar: I guess, you know, I look at it this way. What are we doing for the senior citizen that's feeding their cats food because they can't, they don't want to eat it, or they're eating cat food or they're feeding their cats rather than feeding themselves. I don't see us doing a lot for the senior citizens. Vanguard is over 51% senior citizen. What are we doing for? [48:18] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): This is an entirely separate issue. [48:20] Wayne Mallar: These are the people that are paying the bill. The people in your encampment are not paying any bills, right? They're not residents of the city. They're not taxpayers in the city. Don't you think we should take care of taxpayers first? [48:35] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): And I want these people to be taxpayers. I want to get them. Well, unfortunately, I fully disagree with that because I think that when you have the resources and supports and medications to get to a place where you can have a job and be a taxpayer, what's the success rate on drug [48:53] Speaker K (unidentified): abuse? Less than ten percent? Five percent? I don't know what that question is asking. I'd like to know. I think it's very low. [49:06] Michael Beck: Oh, Vice Chair, boys, your wing. Yes. [49:13] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): I'll take a step back for a moment and just say, I think when we dreamed this up, we kind of envisioned that it would become a quasi resource hub, short-term resource hub, where we could bring together community partners to provide services to people who need them. It's not a permanent solution. It's not like we're going to put up a giant tent and say, everybody come stay under our tent for the rest of your lives. And it's certainly not like we'll be putting up a flyer and say, hey, come use drones here. It's going to be a space where people can be comfortable together and have access to basic human rights, like running water, electricity. This is a modern age. We all have to have access to electricity for someone to get a job. They have to have a phone. To have a phone, you have to be able to charge it. So we are trying to address multiple concerns with this temporary solution while you all or the committee that you might create works on a longer-term solution. This isn't like us saying this is what we think you should do and that's it, just do this and then you can give up. We know this is a temporary step to ease us into a long-term solution. I totally understand what you're saying, Pastor Carson, about not wanting to rush through because you're right, we don't do good work when we rush. But little pieces of this, I think this is a thing that we could do rather quickly if we pulled together our community partners. There are how many organizations in Bangor that are serving this community? We bring them all together as a resource hub. Everybody contributes a little bit, whether it's money or time for staffing thing or whatever they can contribute. I think that is certainly going to be better than doing nothing while we take a long time to maybe do something different. And I just, I have to address this, we are guests in this room and at this table. I don't really appreciate us being [51:27] Carolyn Fish: Attacked, I think it's great when we have ideas come in, because even if we disagree, I don't know how many phone calls I've made in hours I've spent, but might have taken 10 phone calls when I talked to one counselor or mayor from one city and they told me what they were doing and it was like, aha, that's great, and a lot of what they were doing just wouldn't apply to this community, so an idea seeds for thought, brainstorming as we call it in real estate, it's always something, you know, you can extrapolate the things that are that are good ideas. The concerns that I have is we can't lose the focus, I feel, of what the council and the city charter and what our jobs are. And we have to run the city, unfortunately, like a business just with heart and compassion, which I think we've proven we've done. But also, you know, we have to worry about economics and infrastructure and public services and for the city to get themselves in a position where we've taken on something and so we're the experts with substance use addiction or mental health is very dangerous and it's something I think we do need to partner with. We need to step back and see what a reasonable and logical partnership would be to pull those experts in and you know the other thing in here though but for the city manager to coordinate the planning and operation of safe outdoor with the nonprofits and the health care I think our city manager is kind of on her plate but I think that we going forward as a council collective we're all on the same page and I think it's that we have to come up with a task force look internally first get our ducks in the world internally to know just what we have and then we can go outside and say hey this is what we have to offer and then look outside in that next layer there and pull those people in some ideas but as the other counselors have said I think we're on the right track because I think the straw kind of broke the camel's back where we said yes we have to do something and then I think for me at least it made me look internally and say well before we go out there and say what can you can't do We need to kind of look internally and get those limitations, and we need to come up with, I think, you know, consequences, expectations, and we needed ourselves determine our strategy a little more well-rounded to even help you guys come back and say, okay, this is what we're looking for, and then you guys can come back and say, well, now that we know what you have, what you don't have, what we'll do, what you won't do, we can maybe a little [54:04] Susan Deane: One more. Thank you. So I just want to comment on something that [54:12] Speaker H (unidentified): Councilman Ballard said. And there's a number I don't recall where it came from. It may have been in the paper. But the cost of an unhoused individual is somewhere in the area of $300,000. That I think we've heard that number. I couldn't tell you where it came from to attribute it to, so we're paying that anyway and getting like I don't think that's necessarily that we'd be condoning using drugs. It's like a first step and you're getting people in one place where they're starting to get services and then you can get them into these programs, so it's a first step and people are out in the community doing this anyway, so at least it would be in one location. Those are my thoughts. And, like, seniors are already paying for it, because we're all paying this as taxpayers now to the tune of $300,000 ish. [55:13] Speaker F (unidentified): I don't want to leave this discussion without recognizing that we have things in the works right now, with our own department heads. We have one back there that works harder than anybody. I think with what she's doing, what her experts are doing, we're ready, we're gonna have another meeting tomorrow. That she'll be bringing more information. So I just don't want it to sound like we're not doing anything. This is an idea you brought that's great. But I think I would not want to halt the work that they've already started. If anything, we should be able to expand on it or come up with some other factions to go with it. And I think she and her experts will be a huge help when we form this task force to help us, where do we go next with the strategic plan? So we have started the process. I just don't want you to get the idea where we haven't. She's pretty quiet unless she's right down here. But yeah, we've got a lot going. And certainly, you've brought some more information that we'll be able to use with numbers on percentages. We have a lot of work to do, but I think we're up for it. And after the meeting tomorrow, we'll be able to maybe set some time that we can brainstorm as a council to decide, okay, where we headed next. And we all have the end goal, I believe, from what I'm hearing from everybody is the same thing. Yeah, it's just how do we get there. How do we get there with the most efficient use of our resources and what do we have and how can we, excuse me, how can we make that work. But yeah, we've got to give that time to play out in my opinion. [57:18] Susan Deane: I'm not disallowed off what you're saying. Tomorrow we do have a meeting stuff you're probably aware of that and this is a great segue into that. I don't think any of us want the same thing to happen well can be the same so it's urgent but it's not tomorrow. We do have to take a little bit of time to figure this out. I wish we could do something right now, I think a lot of it, but we also know that it's not that easy. So I think by next winter we all agree we will help and the plan will probably be. One short-term facility or non-facility, who's going to run it, who's going to take care of this, we don't know yet, right. But I think we all know that there are two different things which we've got the chronic unhoused and we have a temporary and those temperance house have been displaced somewhat recently and we all just get up. But on the other hand, if we don't do something they will do it, they will make an incident because that's what they do and it's unfortunate to say this but you know they're. Upset because they found a new place to go to. So maybe that's something we'll have to figure out is there a better place for them. But I don't think we can decide that tonight. But I'm hoping meeting tomorrow night, meeting next week, setting up this task force, we will find a solution we. [58:48] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): Fully trust that you will. We know that this has been an ongoing, I mean obviously since you know I can remember, you know having individuals feel that they have a place in Bangor. It's been a priority of the council and so like I said that if this was our recommendation to beat that December 19th deadline for better or much worse, we have time, I guess. But there are still, obviously, so many individuals that are looking for some support that we can provide. So yes, I hope that this is an opportunity to, yeah, to your point, counselors, identify what's going to work. [59:33] Michael Beck: And you know what can be brought forward. I was gonna say, you know, to me this feels like it's a shelter, but it's a one big group, it's as many little groups or tents or 90 tents if that's what it is. If I ever say no to this, I don't know what we're saying yes to other than this pattern of disbursement. We can't, we don't know what 45 people went, you know, which has happened several times in the city's history, which the cost on that is enormous, you know, because all the work done to get into the point where they got a voucher that the clock resets we have to do that all over again if we find them again you know which we do because we're a service center you know that's what's happened to service centers you know the question is not what do we do to stop people from coming is how do we manage the chaos and to me this is about managing chaos i don't i'm not hearing consensus to moving anything forward tonight but i 'm frustrated with as long as i've lived in bangor every year it's the same thing. Winter is coming and then nothing happens, and I just, I'm starting to feel like it's Charlie Brown, the football. We're going to say hey, we're going to get a plan this time, I'm going to work at it, I think we're all going to look and I hope we are, but I'm just in the meantime, what do we do? You know, again, 45 people were at that railroading camp, and when the question put, well, what, where did they go, we got an idea for a few, but and that's not to blame anybody for not knowing, but when it's a you know, you scatter people and we shouldn't be shocked when people scattered, you know, that's just how it goes. We've got to stop that, and this was a way to try and stop that because they aren't finding other places to go, and then the complaints come in. We all get the call, we all get the emails, hey, did you see these pictures over here, now they're buying Burlington or they're here, they're there, and we have an opportunity to stop that, and yes, we don't have the cost in front of us. I would like to hear the full cost. I would like to, you know, have someone smarter than me looking to actually what it takes to do this, so I have somebody to say yes or no to and something you want to figure it out. I want to be the decision maker, not the researcher office, but I've got nothing, you know, and I and that's, that's it, where I feel like the direction should be. Hey, I'd like the staff to bring us something to say this is what it would take to be able to say yes or no to something. And yes, I know we're doing a, you're talking about the potential of doing a standing committee versus a task force. And there'd be a number of things that they'll be looking at. And I also appreciate the fact that yes, you don't wanna rush into any one thing, but we got 300 people that we heard that are effectively homeless, you know, between the number of people who are all, you know, proud in the warming center and the number of people that were in the, encampment that we don't know where they went. But this problem is just going to continue to get bigger and bigger, and the places where they're ending up is not safe for anybody, not the people who live there, not the people that are nearby. I just, I wish I had somebody to say yes or no to rather than just, you know, obey, you know, I said this is, this is a good, this is a chance to get the plan, but I'm not hearing the consensus here for this to at least come up with it, with a plan, you know, hopefully this is something we can have a committee that we form come up with, council places. [1:03:12] Daniel Carson: In a previous meeting we were presented with a few site ideas, and I think that staff were already looking into some of the logistics around those places. Something that I've been thinking about with this particular proposal and a reason that I suggest that we don't rush is because doing something like this like moving this forward to council to direct the city manager to start running on this puts us in the position of owner I'm not sure that we want to be in the position of owner I think that 's not what council does we are we are a policy body if like what three major jobs right it's policy it's oversight it's funding and we're good at those things, right? We're good at policy, we're good at funding, we're good at, we're kind of good oversight, you can get better at oversight, but those are the three things that we're going to do. And those are the three things we should make sure that we're going to continue to be able to, I am concerned that if we put the city in position of owner of this particular project, it's going to take away from the things that we're supposed to be good at. And so the way that I'm viewing this is I like I'm supportive of this idea, I support a sanctioned encampment, I think it's a great first step, if it's transitional, if it's temporary, if it has all of the appropriate logistics, I'm not sure that we should own that. I think we can be good collaborators. I think we can be the body that creates the policy tone that says this is the site where we can do that. I think we can be the body that creates the policy tone that says this is how we're going to take in grants and disperse those. I don't know that immediately directing the city manager is going to put us in a position that we wanna be in. Because I think there's a lot of questions we have to answer that we just don't know. [1:05:10] Carolyn Fish: Council of London hasn't been able to speak I'm completely [1:05:20] Speaker N (unidentified): fine with taking our time and developing what the entire council wants to go forward with as a strategy I've been waiting many years now for the council to take appropriate hard line actions on what is that we're going to do personally i'm willing to wait a little bit longer that means those are actual actions that we're going to take they we have to have action like there's whatever that action is but what to go forward with even if it's an option that none of us seem to like i think we're all in agreement that we have to go forward with something we can't keep repeating this is now the third, fourth time that part of a council that has done a sweep on an encampment. And that doesn't feel good. And it also is economically just disasters as well. So I hope that all of us, when we get to that point, when it's time for us to say, execute on said action, that we're not going to basically keep going around in a circle about oh I don't like this particular thing oh I need this dollar amount right here oh how are you going to fill this job out in order to do this sort of thing it's not going to be a perfect plan going forward but we have to actually execute and doing nothing is absolutely not an option. Doing nothing is an action that this council has been doing for over 40 years now. And that cannot be this year coming up because I know councilor Mallard talked about a lot of budget related items. And those are valid questions that we have. It's also valid to know that we already know that a lot of people who are houseless are already eating up a huge amount of emergency room costs, a huge amount of time between EMS providers and police officers. Those times that those individuals take with those individuals, homeless individuals take time with those city professionals, that is very expensive for repeated interactions over and over and over again. And while there's no direct dollar amount to that, there isn't, or like say an imaginary dollar amount where those transactional dollars, the pay that we give that police officer to deal with so many 911 calls, those calls do actually have an overall dollar number attributed to them. Now, I don't know what those dollar numbers are. I'm sure none of us at Rockstop are ahead, but we can get those numbers. My guess is the average call that a police officer responds to is probably a pretty high figure at the end of the day, and having someone who is in the midst of substance abuse, that's a relatively large problem, that we don't need that high caliber of a salaried employee to deal with that problem. So it is going to cost money to fix this solution, but we have to invest in that because, and I keep saying this over and over again just so that we can all remember it, homelessness is expensive. If we don't do anything about it 's going to limit you to even our overall city budget in every single department so i'm fine with me taking some time to perfect this idea to maybe even talk to you about a standing committee beforehand but we do have to take action and we can't peddle around this anymore [1:09:34] Carolyn Fish: As Councillor Carson said, you know, it's not our job to cure or fix the homeless issue in our city. Obviously, it is our job to be concerned, but I do think that we have failed and we need to do better at being better partners and to better assess our other partners that are the experts in the field. We are able to be talented at getting grants. I think, you know, is we just said how much it costs for an individual homeless person, well, eight million dollars in grants. I don't think we're the only ones that have a little bit of, you know, failure here. What I think we have to help organize the other non-profits and see why there isn't more effectiveness within our community. That's why we need to have them at the table and figure out how we can reach the person on the street who has what, how we can collaborate better and have a better pool and a better, you know, like a better clearinghouse, and just how we can better serve those clients, because right now it's too segmented and fragmented and it's not working. So I do feel as a council we do have to be better managers and partners with the issue in order for [1:10:57] Speaker H (unidentified): it to improve absolutely a couple months ago when i spoke with the fire chief he told me that they were taking four to five overdose calls a day and also that a lot of the unhoused individuals were calling 911 for the basic medical care so which you know a lot of you probably already know that so those costs are high extremely high that just kind of builds on what you were talking about counselor leonard but i think i agree we're getting into the weeds of something that we most of us at this table are not experts on. I think our time could be better are focused on. In all that material that we received, there was a suggestion, this is probably something we're talking about tomorrow night, but potentially hiring a national consultant who has worked on this issue, and also getting that homeless coordinator hired, getting these experts into place, because we aren't the experts. And instead of us spending all of our council time I'm digging into those weeds, trying to solve the problem. Those are the folks who should be doing it. And then they come to us with the recommendations for approval or not. I [1:12:21] Daniel Carson: wanted to add into the conversation that I clarified that I also, I do have a sense of urgency. And I want us to also think about, you know, right now we're talking about 40, 50, 200, 300, whatever the number is, people who are various outside statuses. Homelessness is not that simple, and we also, right, we're, we're coming towards a deadline where there have been federal changes to, right, housing programs that is going to add some complexities. But we live in a country right now where 50 percent of the American people do not have 400 dollars in their savings account for an emergency. So I would appreciate if the homelessness and housing committee or whatever task force is put together can also think about the question of early intervention and other questions that go along with this. And that $400, that's an important number to get in your head. That is 50% of our city. That's 50% of our country that is this close to being homeless. And so if our homelessness response plan is based on just the people who are outside or just based on the most complex cases that are there, we're really going to be missing a huge chunk of that pipeline. So I do think that when we think about the homeless response, we also do need to think about seniors and how to keep seniors in their home. I think it does actually matter how much we're paying our workers in the city so that they can stay in their homes. And I think economic development is a piece of that. I mean, I actually think all of these things kind of go together, but I'm not just concerned about the people who are out in the cold right now who do need a solution, they need one, I know they need it, and I know they need it. But we got like a whole heck of another half of a country that's about to be in the street if they miss a paycheck and get sick and have a heart attack if something goes on at home. So we need to also think about them as potentially homeless. [1:14:29] Michael Beck: Most so the consensus I've got I'm thinking like now is everyone looking to put it put a pin in this and you know that's something that maybe that the committee would pick up the you know the hotel or whatever decided is there any other comments on this before we move on to the [1:14:45] Susan Deane: next thing can [1:14:50] Unidentified speaker (Staff / Presenter): I just say thank you very much for once again meeting with us and hearing recommendations that we have we really appreciate this conversation and appreciate the opportunity to share with you all I just wanted to say your last comment Counselor Carson reminded me that the school department has a McKinney-Vento liaison that is responsible for supporting families and especially children who are unhoused and a lot of times it's not someone that's in an encampment it's someone who's living in a car living with an aunt living with a grandmother so just another individual to keep in mind that we have a lot of anymore school department staff that would be able to help support those numbers and to this very complex [1:15:32] Susan Deane: issue and again thank you so much I just wanted to say thank you Shane thank you for coming in [1:15:39] Angela Walker: I think this is one of the things that we emphasize to our community is that we really want to hear from you we really want to hear ideas and I just really thank you both for coming in [1:15:51] Michael Beck: Thank you Chair Bryson thank you Chair Boys for joining us and thank you for working in thank you all thanks all right let's bring this to item number three the discussion of housing and homelessness advisory committee [1:16:10] Susan Deane: Before you get started, might I, so in your packet you have a memo drafted by the city with a recommendation for an advisory committee. This is the advisory committee that we've been thinking about. We can talk about that one tomorrow night. It is on the agenda for tomorrow night, if that's okay with, so yeah. But then I can, next to it is a memo that you produce, council effect, that's more of a robust comprehensive advisory committee, and that is not on the agenda. [1:16:45] Michael Beck: it right this was the idea with an actual standing community not just a task force you know i've had time to think it over and decide you know task force long-term stated committee and my issue still stands i guess for the task force they dissolve right when the work gets hard that's just the nature that's what they do if i design and we had done the task force in 2019 and came up with an excellent plan that had a number of ideas and right about the time that it was going to get implemented covet happened and then Kobe came, turn over in council, and it just kind of got dropped. And I look back at that and I think about, you know, if we had a steaming community, you know, there is that ongoing consistency, that carryover between council terms, that would have probably kept that action going forward. And the other issue that was with task force is that they do have a very, by design they're supposed to have a, here's our goal, here's our set. There's some examples that were given in the memo that will go over tomorrow night where they did that. But even in the case of like Lowell, Massachusetts, where in 2019 they had their task force kind of mirror image of what you know bangor had done we had come up with this task force then you know 2023 comes they their director of health and human services talked about how what they've come up with gridlock it just they were no longer working due to various the barriers that they listed as part of the plan and i worry about doing a task force and then disperse in them and then trying to pick up the pieces afterwards. So this, and this doesn't have to be the final iteration of it, but I like the idea of a long-term task force because what all the touches, you know, things as far as, you know, regional sharing, keeping, you know, tabs of what our gap analysis of those are with between organizations and so on, making sure that there is coordination, public education, engagement, you know, all of these things that they're, they're tasked with, and I'm wondering if this kind of conversation is best had Side by side with the, you know, the task force, you know, compare apples to apples kind of thing, versus trying to decide on this tonight and then decide on the other one tomorrow. Does this committee want to just kick this conversation and pull to the workshop tomorrow? Okay, yeah, so we'll just have that conversation tomorrow, and with that, there's something off. [1:19:40] Carolyn Fish: On the agenda when I read this, and I know I haven't shared a little later, but this kind of goes in conjunction with, I think we call it a task force, but I agree with you. After the last 60 weeks on in some of the more successful solutions, they've called it, I've heard it called several things, but the common word is hub. We've created a hub which the city themselves become a partner with, and it's an ongoing standing committee within the city council, these liaisons, but we can talk more about that, so. I agree the task force seems to be temporary, so yeah, I see where you're coming from, and I look forward to the conversation tomorrow night. Great, any other comments?