Scarborough housing committee backs exploring housing on Tibbetts Road town land

[0:01] Steve Zamorowski: I just want to make sure we're on in case people are waiting. [0:10] Bill Shanahan: To join you guys have a silent option. [0:13] Speaker C (unidentified): Too he had probably about 20 hey. [1:08] Bill Donovan: Bill can you hear us? Yeah I was at the town hall at 5 30 because the agenda said the meeting started at 5 30. It does so sorry my apologies. Yeah so I came home and figured I'd get on this way so nice to see everyone. You too and Eric can [1:31] Speaker E (unidentified): you hear us? Yes I can perfect I [1:38] Speaker C (unidentified): didn't even notice I just have always no I didn't even notice it I [1:42] Steve Zamorowski: it should have been six well I looked at this bill's very observant client too yeah well Mr Chair you have a quorum there you go [1:59] Tom Hall: like it when that happens want to call to order then let's do it okay Eric [2:07] Speaker E (unidentified): can you record those present please can you let me know who's in there it's kind of blurry on my end [2:13] Steve Zamorowski: please yeah we have Steve Zamorowski yeah Libra Crockett and Bill Shanahan [2:24] Tom Hall: Bill online and himself Tom Hall that's right and you and Bill Donovan are online [Steve Zamorowski: line. Right. I] look for a motion to approve the minutes. Thank you. Second that. Appreciate it. Any discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor? Yes. All right. Great. Any opposed? Hearing none. Minutes are approved. Okay, we've done kind of back and forth with item four the housing assessment but anyway yeah I didn't have much quiet for a while it has [3:07] Steve Zamorowski: and I appreciate you taking some time off from the summer I think we all probably needed that yeah I asked GP College just to put together a quick little overview just so you appreciated where we are we are part of a larger application they've made to the main office of community. This is a relatively new, probably a 3 year old state agency that sole purpose really provide funding and technical assistance to towns. It really is a replacement field planning office. I would say at any rate as the State continues to be more interested in housing matters. MMA on our behalf has been very clear that we need technical assistance and some funding to at the local level to really advance some of the policies and priorities. The State has been handed down and so there's a grant program that frankly I was not aware until I talked to my colleagues in Saco. Morocco their housing assessment was funded to the same Grant and so it sounds like the timeline based on you know what the GP God provided us we should know in October that we get awarded this incidentally is to GP cog and the like are the only ones that can have access to these monies they're called service provider grants and Paul Johnson who I'm working with has said it's really not a competitive process it's it 's kind of a guarantee so i don't have any concern that we will not get funded Yeah, so we just need for that to happen in october, and he's kind of laid out. I gave him our scope of work which was very well developed thanks to your efforts, and they've kind of worked it into the grant rubric if you will to make sure it kind of aligns. He's assured us that with funding we'll then reconvene and kind of put back together a scope, and so I don't know that we're going to get everything we're looking for, but I think we're probably get pretty close, and if soccer's is any example and I think it is of the kind of work product, I think it does certainly get speaks to the sort of deliverables that we were expecting, so that's kind of an update. i expect we'll have some thing for the things to talk about in certainly november, maybe even at our october meeting okay. [5:45] Speaker C (unidentified): i think the citizens will appreciate that we got the grant quote as well. yeah, and it sounds [5:51] Steve Zamorowski: like the timeline for the whole process would be kind of a year in works if you will from award next month. I was also interested to hear that they are really things it's important to have a public component, a process that I think they're going to look to us to help design, so stay tuned. there'll be some further work for us to refine the scope and really build out [6:13] Tom Hall: that public process piece. I forget too somebody my town has gone through the college boss that's Right. Didn't we look at a draft of did you send did you give us a. [6:23] Steve Zamorowski: So it was on this program. Yeah. Yeah. [6:27] Tom Hall: So but did they hire a third party, a cycle, hire a third party to do theirs? They did, but it was funded through the product or something. Yeah, that work product from them. But anyway, no, the price is right. [6:43] Steve Zamorowski: Yeah. And I think if it's, if it's deficient in certain areas, we can be very specific and surgical about going out and kind of filling in those gaps at a much cheaper price, frankly. But I think this is going to get us the basic stuff to identify gaps, if you will. Yep. And I think as I reported, we have actually risked another $100,000. So we've got about $900,000 in that affordable housing initiative fund. So there's ample resources. I think it's great that we can get this majority paid by grant monies. But keep in mind, and that might be a subject of future conversation. Not that we have to spend it, but there are resources available. That I've always envisioned, you know, would go far if we use them as leverage for something else. You know, not that we're ever going to be in the business of building and owning and managing formal units. You can't do many for even that money. But that kind of money or in smaller amounts can leverage, you know, multiples more with the [7:48] Tom Hall: right partner. Just, I, it feels like we found a landing area now for the assessment and after a lot of back and forth and it gives us a chance to kind of hone it a little bit as opposed to not writing a check and then trying to figure it out on the fly. Yeah, any questions from folks? Okay, I mean, we still got a lot of it opportunity to input right on the process and the scope and so forth and get feedback from others, council in particular. It's a good development. This is really advances it with, yeah. And it's interesting. Yeah, it is. And it's good that these other towns are kind of coalescing around this as we are, you know, and trying to come up with their own. They have their own experiences and we can kind of learn from that. Okay, all right, item five, unless there's some other something else under our housing. No, I don't think so. I think [8:58] Steve Zamorowski: at your next meeting discussion we might have some more substance to talk about with the [9:02] Tom Hall: the with GBCON. Yeah, I think everybody here is kind of weighed in too on what they like or don't like about what we see in the proposals and we'll pick those discussions up. Yep, okay, item five, potential for affordable housing Townland Tibbets Road. You guys are supposed to, this is me, I didn't prepare anything, I'm sorry. No, that's not described well, at least you know what Tibbets Road is as opposed [9:28] Bill Shanahan: Do we know what Tibbetts Road is? So Tibbetts Road is kind of right across the street from Fuller Farm. [9:33] Steve Zamorowski: Outer Brocktown Road. Outer Brocktown Road. Do you know where that is? [9:37] Bill Shanahan: I live off Brocktown. Okay, so right now it's a private road with four or five homes on it. The town has access as well as public access to the road, needed access to the road. The end of that road is 70-ish acres of land that was a farm. There was a sewage dump there, but it's been tested. It's way under the limits for PFAS contamination, so it's usable land. And from conversations with the town and the Scarborough Land Trust, the Land Trust has requested that the town turns it over to the Land Trust for conservation. We the PCLB went out there last week, did a little tour. It's beautiful land, there's loaded land, this forest, there's wetlands, it's along the Nonsuch River. Its terrain is very, it's other properties property the Land Trust would plan on putting trails up there, potentially be the first parcel they allowed biking, mountain biking, so be set up for that, 's [10:54] Steve Zamorowski: a pretty exciting developer. None of their other properties, they love bikes, right? So we are very [11:01] Bill Shanahan: excited about it we're actually meeting tomorrow to talk about it as a group of PCLV and to make a recommendation to town council by putting my housing Authority hat on saying hey there's some land here we should at least look at it talk about potentially taking a piece of that not much when you go at the end of the road is a pretty nice fairly level field open the area two three acres i think i'll look yeah and then above there 's another one like maybe one or two acres and then it kind of drops down a little bit and you wouldn't go want to go too far in. Potential to me, not being a builder, designed, it could be buildable. That would still leave six, seven hundred feet from the river, 800 feet. I mean, there's still lots of, it's 78, yeah, there's a lot of land there, and there would be a lot of buffer to the river. It wasn't like we're going to build something in the river. So I thought, well, it would be no hurry to do this, but once we give it to the Land Trust, it's gone, so it's worth a discussion. Should we also take a parcel of that, piece of that land for future use? And you said town [12:26] Steve Zamorowski: owns it now? Yep, and it's, it's part of a larger ask from the Land Trust to have a series of parcels to sure hand it over to them for development and stewardship. I mean, the town is owns it, but we [12:41] Bill Shanahan: Do nothing with it, so right, yeah, most of the parcels are smaller pieces that were given to the town because that's part of the conservation developments and things or things like that, so it's 10 acres here, five years there, is a bigger, certainly bigger parcel on the marsh, but it's basically mostly wetland, so this is the only piece of land that's a big parcel with potential of use. [13:05] Steve Zamorowski: You know, I like your thinking, and right after that, we actually toured the Carpenter Court, which is a town-owned property along the turnpike, happens to be in my backyard. But that was a project where we carved the first five acres off, did a project with Habitat for Humanity, and they built, I don't know how many homes, 10 or 12. So I don't think it's dissimilar from what you're describing, is that there can be both conservation and something else. What strikes me about that property is one, you need a parker filler, right, so I think what you're suggesting is maybe we carve a piece off and figure or figure. [13:47] Bill Shanahan: That stuff out, oh this is, yeah, longer, long term, after the study, potentially after whatever. [13:53] Steve Zamorowski: But there's some extraordinary costs that I think need to be considered with developing that Tibbets Road to get to the land he's talking about, is probably pushing half mile, definitely over four, third of a mile, it's basically a one-lane dirt road at this point, so there would be some normal costs just upgrading that, and it may actually be built to town public road standards depending on how many units you're looking to put down there, it would clearly be water and sewer on site, there's no. Utilities up that farm, and it's fairly far removed, you know, Bill, you know, from the affordable housing perspective, certainly we're looking at multi-family approach, I don't think this is a good candidate for it because it's, it's. [14:45] Bill Shanahan: Probably not as far, well, it's definitely not good for elderly, for senior housing, right, I would think, because there's no services, it's way from, way from town, it's kind of secluded out there, right. [14:59] Steve Zamorowski: So it would be single family or maybe duplex type development, I would think, just given where it is, and yeah, and that strikes me that will be a challenge to find a developer that's interested in that, in that area, if you will, yeah, it's, I mean, things, I mean, things are. [15:20] Bill Shanahan: Going up there, and they're selling really well, so I live up there, so you live up there, it's not way up, sometimes it's the forgotten part of town, but I think for workforce housing, young couples. [15:35] Tom Hall: That would be awesome. Yeah, it's it's it's nice to have a, you know, when a concept can come along and then you've you've got a landing area for it, so to speak. Yeah, you'd be living there and you'd have [15:49] Bill Shanahan: Have 60 acres along around it. Yeah. Now grab your off your back porch. [15:54] Steve Zamorowski: Use your bike too. And you might 1 of the concepts this committee in past discussions years ago, in fact, it was looking at the land, behind the appeal professional buildings. It's where Darwin Turgeon is, it's town-owned property. Yeah, but the notion would be to go through a public process an RFP process and be very clear what our expectations are in terms of building to a certain price point or square footage however you choose to do that and really seek a partner that is willing and able to, you know, meet those demands. But there still needs to be some meat on the bone for them and, you know, in this kind of scenario the town could, you know, be providing the land at three or highly reduced and that alone might buy it down enough that it makes it you know puts it in an income range that 's right [16:48] Speaker C (unidentified): Housing is looking to do stuff right that might be a good partner to maybe reach out to, I don't know. [16:55] Bill Shanahan: And given the land donation or whatever maybe they could make it work without the ca. Yeah. [17:02] Steve Zamorowski: They could and I think that would be part of identifying not a lot of habitat for that, right? No, but you mentioned South Portland Housing. I think they are dabbling into kind of single family approach but, you know, their bread and butter is the litech programs and multi-family, you know, doing, you know, bigger projects, you know, 40 bus units, you know. Well why would, I don't understand [17:27] Bill Shanahan: why that wouldn't be a good place for that. The lack of utilities infrastructure. Oh because yeah. [17:33] Tom Hall: I'm putting it on okay and usually there's some prohibitions like the funding sources of debt, okay, you know, saying we're only going to put it with, okay, you know, accessible infrastructure [17:45] Steve Zamorowski: infrastructure municipal infrastructure zoning prohibitions from the density point of view that [17:50] Speaker C (unidentified): that would be a challenge. I guess I'd like to kind of like hear Eric's take on it too because he's done this, Eric. [18:00] Speaker E (unidentified): Yeah, as Bill said, it wouldn't score well to get access to some of the funding that's out there for affordable housing. There are, there are, I mean, there is an AHOP program currently out, affordable housing home ownership program, that's not getting a lot of traction. That might be something. I just don't know how this aligns with the timeline and the potential funding source, okay. [18:29] Steve Zamorowski: But as we talked about, this is on a path to go to council this fall. Certainly, you know, maybe as soon as October. I don't know, Sam, remember the latest? [18:39] Bill Shanahan: Well, we can have our thing ready next week, right now, if you're ready to, so this kind of puts [18:46] Steve Zamorowski: a wrench in things, I guess, if we're interested. No, I didn't, but I'm glad you brought it up. Yeah. [18:53] Tom Hall: Thinking outside the box, yeah, good. It's, it's got a lot of, I mean, it'd be much nicer to start with an offering as to trying to anticipate what people might need, to try and come up with something that's, you know, advanced with the land, you know, you've got to carve out, and people, I mean, you're basically walking into something with the below market land costs. It's clear what can and can't go out there, you know, in terms of desirability and funding opportunities, but that's not a scale that, you know, it could appeal to a broad audience, so [19:31] Bill Shanahan: development partners, I would think, with the LED 1820 and whatever the fix it is, the density would be a problem. I'm, I think, didn't they change all the density rules? Can you have four? [19:45] Steve Zamorowski: Can you have four? Yes, 2173. I think the benefit will be for the smaller watch, you'll be able to put much more dense density for bigger lots. I don't know that it's going to be that much of a [20:01] Tom Hall: So, what,, what does this group need to do to kind of put a stake in the ground? [20:08] Steve Zamorowski: Literally, figuratively. Well, I can, and I will represent this conversation at the tomorrow. That's the parts across the land board, which is the group that's designated to review these sorts of requests and make recommendations. Recommendations, how they react to that news, Steve. I don't know if I mentioned, but you are, you are the chair of that group. I suspect you 're not shy, you'll also articulate the [20:36] Bill Shanahan: Yeah, I'm a and guy, I'm not, I'm, yeah, I think we can accomplish more than one thing at a time if we do it right. And this is, like I said, this is something that's far enough away from the river. It's a big enough bottle, and I think we're going to do something, state the land. I guess we'd ask the land trust to survey and kind of break the boundaries now and then transfer the land, the rest of it, to the land trust. [21:09] Steve Zamorowski: They're probably going to be interested to hear from us, what piece do you want to carve off? Right. Oh, yeah. [21:15] Tom Hall: I think there'd be some performance expectations too, you know, this, it wouldn't be a forever housing opportunity, and you know, at some point wouldn't, wouldn't, wouldn't they want to know that if it doesn't work there'd be a reversion back, you know, maybe, but that they want to preserve [21:36] Bill Shanahan: the land, they want to have, they want to have space for a parking lot, they want to put in some trails, they could do that with five or six fewer acres, so I don't think huge parcel, yeah, I don't think they, I mean, we could even, I mean, obviously if we decide not to do this at a later, it doesn't [21:55] Steve Zamorowski: work out, we could then transfer the only time it's not the only thing we do is take this parcel though, I think it's the prize piece of what they're asking for and out of this offering and kind [22:06] Bill Shanahan: to advance the other stuff, yeah, i, yeah, that would, doesn't feel like they've been, this has been a two [22:12] Steve Zamorowski: year and a half project for them, right, but i think the only way i can see us doing this until we understand whether this is viable is to actually carve off a piece and hold it back and made them be quite restricted so it forces us to really do the work and make a decision, right, and if we decide not to go for it we say, you know, we'll do that piece over to you as well, so you'll get all of it, that's, that's where I fell far is something, but in the meantime we would have to designate where that is and it's going to be a piece of land such that the land trust can get in and do what it needs to do and access the other, sure, oh yeah, the way the [22:52] Bill Shanahan: road ends to the right is kind of an old kind of a general and then off to the left is a road that goes down toward the river, so i'm picturing that would be where a parking lot country would be and then we'd have this kind of area over here and then all back there and then behind there, so it's, i would just take a little l field in that upper level if it's available [23:19] Steve Zamorowski: I guess, well, I mean, that's, that's the sort of thing, is it right, it's the sort of thing you'd have to figure out just to do some preliminary due diligence to understand what piece is the best to develop that doesn't compromise the rest of it, that kind of minimizes your infrastructure costs to kind of get to it and service it. Does the land trust actually [23:39] Tom Hall: inventory their land like that, you know, and do they segregate like wetlands, buildable, non-buildable, [23:46] Bill Shanahan: or is it just, yeah, I could put, yeah, they identify what's there, and the appraisal certainly does that when they have the professional appraisal done. All right, good. A lot of [23:57] Steve Zamorowski: the value is based on buildability but that's for land we're looking to buy in this if they've expressed interest they're not doing appraisals they're not doing much of any due diligence to my knowledge right oh here on this one I'm asking you I know presumption is they 're not following their typical process because it's not a conventional action right well because they [24:23] Bill Shanahan: don't have preferred, yeah, right, but they in general would know what's there, what's what [24:29] Steve Zamorowski: percentage is wooded what percentage is wetlands what percentage is i feel that i 'm really torn because i feel like we're really late in the game and i to be a good partner to land trust me on it have them part of this conversation i think they're going to hear it for the first time [24:46] Bill Shanahan: tomorrow morning, right? So I can, I can involve Andrew ahead of time, I wouldn't want him to be a lot blindsided at the meeting, I just think the concept is worth pursuing. [25:01] Tom Hall: If it's not, doesn't work here, maybe we pick it up somewhere else, it's, it is late, but it's worth the shot, you know, because I think it's something we get behind as a group, and you [Steve Zamorowski: know, just think,] we'll kind of make it send a message that this is the kinds of things we kind of do. [25:27] Bill Shanahan: Yeah, but when you, I agree with you, think about this, the guy is giving them weight, yes, they are conserving it, they're going to take up the responsibility, the conservation of it, but it's a valuable piece of property, so I don't know if they could really be all that upset about it, you know, you're right, I think that if it doesn't hold up the process, well, it's going to [25:52] Tom Hall: hold up a little bit, but you know, it's like us in our housing assessment, you know, 25 years in the [25:58] Speaker C (unidentified): making, but are they ready to go and start developing the past and stuff now, or they probably have some planning that they're still going to have to do anyway, there are trails there. [26:07] Bill Shanahan: now they would probably i would imagine they would go in if they own it tomorrow they would go and clean up what's there and let people access it 's not much more for parking you could have a couple cars in the interviews we just kind of leave it not publicize it as a piece of property and put a sign up yet let people go there if they want to during that time they would do the planning of where the parking lot would be potentially talk some to the bikes folks the mountain bike folks in Portland On the trail thing, so yeah, so they would, they would start moving toward their plan, but it's not something bigger than, so we'll raise this to the board. [26:49] Steve Zamorowski: Tomorrow I think I want to think about it more, but my gut reaction is my recommendation, if they're interested in it, would be for us to remove this parcel out of the consideration so we can give them the courtesy of being involved in a conversation and figure out, you know, do some due diligence so we're not just indiscriminately saying oh this piece looks good because it may not be the right piece for us or for them, right? And I'd hate to just hold up all the other stuff in the meantime. They'll be probably disappointed in that just because I think they, this is the marquee property of all of them, yeah, but we own it and we shouldn't give it. [27:34] Speaker C (unidentified): Away until we're comfortable giving away, that's the thing I think is the biggest part of this, because the biggest piece of trying to make something affordable is buying the land and we have the land, so you can make it that much more affordable putting a building on there because you're not spending a million dollars per land. Yeah, I mean every one of the assessments we've. [27:53] Tom Hall: looked at has a provision for town-owned land you know the inventory of town the only and what can be done with it so everybody recognize that 's that's something you know that's something that ought to be considered but is everybody comfortable with the idea of messaging that we'd be interested in a housing option for this piece of property definitely okay any objections [28:17] Steve Zamorowski: No, I think the helpful if you just took a vote on that very basic premise that just interested in exploring the potential for housing on part of this property. And then I need to flush that out with that actually needs the future. [28:30] Tom Hall: They may want to make that motion. [28:32] Bill Shanahan: I'll make a motion to consider. Consider subdividing a portion of the Tibbetts real property for future housing development. [28:45] Speaker C (unidentified): For low income over low income or affordable or affordable workforce, whatever. [28:52] Tom Hall: You're calling or workforce. I like the idea of workforce, but whatever that is, yeah, it's it's [28:58] Bill Shanahan: It's 80 to 120, isn't it? Yeah, until it isn't. Yeah, I would second it so we can have discussion if [29:04] Tom Hall: You want. Yeah, we can have video. So I got a motion in the second. Any further discussion? I [29:12] Speaker E (unidentified): Would get the motion. Sorry, who made the motion? Who made the second? Xan made the motion. I made the second. [29:18] Speaker C (unidentified): Leroy. Okay. [29:22] Tom Hall: I keep it as simple as we can, you know, not stop adding right restrictions on the mode. We said right now it's just too exactly amorphous, yeah, to because we don't even know we're asking. We just have this, you're really interested in exploring the potential of creating town only housing on town only and the kind of housing is TBD. I think all those in favor, yes. Any against? Any days? Okay, hearing none, motion carries. And do you want me to call [30:02] Bill Shanahan: Andrew, do you want to call Andrew? I'm happy to, but if you think it's better coming from you. [30:13] Steve Zamorowski: Yeah, I'm not gonna call tonight, but no, I'll see if I can catch me in the morning. At least catch me in the hallway. I don't want to be surprised. Yeah, no one had been surprised. Yeah, and how your committee tomorrow morning chooses to deal with this, with this kind of development, you're probably going to want to know more on what that means. So well, yeah, see you all on my polls, right? Just Tom, you made the motion too. [30:38] Bill Shanahan: I don't have to fess up. I'm trying to do the right thing. It's a really good idea. Yeah, it is. [30:46] Speaker C (unidentified): It's it's the fact that you thought of that when we want to walk in property is really good. I think that's what people are looking for from us as a committee ball field. There is it. [31:01] Tom Hall: I am 6 update town council and planning board items. [31:05] Steve Zamorowski: Yeah, I'm just trying to get the habit of providing you a little insight, line of sight into what's going on elsewhere. Elsewhere you might be paying attention, you might not, so I think two things caught my attention that I thought you might just like to be aware of. The Downs has been kind of preoccupied for the last 18 months looking at their town center, so they're they're doing some housing, really more on the certainly market rate, maybe luxury end of condos and apartments during that time frame as part of the town center filled out. So the other part of that is obviously commercial, predominantly retail at this Point, they're now kind of shifting, they're fully involved in that phase and looking at kind of the next area of conquest I guess, and they're looking to kind of seemingly return back to more of the residential focus, particularly single family. So they were in front of planning, the planning board on the 24th, and they're looking for, it's a 20 lot, 27 Lots, 24 of which are single family, probably very similar to what you see is single family now in terms of size of a lot, a character, one multi-family. Lot, I don't, I can't describe that anymore than that, and that's how it was characterized, and then take two mixed use lots, so presumably there'll be some level of residential and commercial use on those lots. And you know, this is in keeping with their build-up plan, it's kind of the town center being more commercial, but kind of just concentric rings out from that are residential. So just kind of an interesting, I'm not aware that there's any thing designated as affordable in this proposal, and I. Suspect what they'll build is probably similar to what we've already seen there from a quality, price point, and the like. [33:05] Speaker C (unidentified): Now, just for that property, I haven't been following the planning stuff as much as I probably should be. When Market Basket opens in November, is that road gonna be reopened, or are they gonna try to keep this residential side segregated so people can't cut through to get to Costco? [33:19] Steve Zamorowski: The street through, which is Coverdowns Road, it's essentially the alignment of the old road, right? Right. I understand they will not be opening that entirely. However, there is a new road that goes all the way around Market Basket. So from Market Street around Market Basket that will connect back to Scarborough Downs Road, just short of the Rotary, will be open. So you can make a through trip. It's going to be secure. And that is really because there's active construction happening fairly close to the road. And it just makes sense for safety and really the ease of construction to be able to kind of have free, unfettered access across that road while major instructions about, yeah, but I just didn't know, actually, yeah, there will, but I must warn you, and I'll hardly agree with this, the town center is intentionally pedestrian friendly, they'll raise tables, actually entire intersections, sections that are raised, good point, which is to really discourage, slow down traffic, but also discourage traffic then, but. You will be able to make a through trip from Route 1 to Payne Road. [34:25] Speaker C (unidentified): Yeah, I just don't know if they're going to try to segregate it and make one side just residential. [34:29] Steve Zamorowski: So people could not cut through. No, there'll be a through trip, but it's going to be slow going. [34:35] Speaker C (unidentified): Intentionally. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, because I'm sure people want to come off from Costco and go. [34:40] Steve Zamorowski: Into Market Basket would be my guess. Right, and so now they have three points of access. Route 1 was the only primary for the longest time. They built what they call Market Street, which goes to Hikes Parkway now. There's a lake that's been on flash for about four months waiting for traffic counts to warn turning it on. And then of course, Payne Road. Scrubber Downs onto Route 1 will become really the least desirable. Many of us local may They choose to go through there, but they're intending that the majority of traffic will be using Market Street, the finest part of what our pain road to kind of get to what they're looking at. That's what we're doing with that. Yeah. And those that live there will, you know, take the closest, easiest route to their homes for sure. We are in negotiations for their next traffic movement permit, which is a big deal. They've invested about 20 million bucks so far in traffic improvements all over town. Some places out of town, actually, in their first TMP. This next one is going to focus, I'll predict, more at the doorstep, really solving and doing Payne Road right, four lanes section for exit 42, at least to Bridges Drive, and then designing mining the rest of it for us and then hikes Parkway get some major improvements as well. Yeah, okay, that kind of thing was done well there'll be some two lanes. Yeah, the Turbine Authority owns the light at exit 42 and they're for they're highly sensitive to traffic backing up through their back through their. Toll. Yeah, so getting the proper lanes out of that intersection section to receive traffic is of high importance to everyone. It really needs to be for planes. Yeah, so let's just quick update on the downs and then there's going to ask a question about what it's not what's up the heart you're in you know what's up with the larger. Yes, I gotta be careful how there's a someone new has kind of stepped in the shoes of the entity that receive planning board approval but they're looking to build the same. sheet of ice and actually quite likely a turf field indoor as well, and marriage would be a key tenant. No question, the town is actually involved in conversations to see if community services can play a role physically in the space as a tenant in exchange change for kind of management responsibilities. So those conversations are happening as we speak. [37:22] Speaker C (unidentified): Similar to what the edge had approved before coping. Sounds somewhat similar. Yeah, it's a community service being there, sports entertainment. Yeah, operation, yeah, and there's the turf field. [37:33] Bill Shanahan: Replacing the potential second rink because there's not much room for both. Yes, yeah, and [37:39] Steve Zamorowski: the turf field and the ring for that matter can be covered over and into other uses off season, but apparently ice time is of such demand in a premium there may as well probably very good demand for keeping the ice year-round. Yeah, absolutely. So we're intrigued, and this is the site that's right across from Costco. Can picture right that market's 11 o'clock off the rotary, if that makes any sense to you. Okay, so it's a very handy convenient site, constrained size and resource limitations around it, so to your point it remains to be seen how much they can actually put on it that's going to be an indoor facility. Yeah, it's going to be the mayor is using, they'll be using it for like a practice facility, correct. Yeah, I'm interested. [38:34] Speaker C (unidentified): If you're not comment on the next one here because I want to see if that's actually what I'm what I'm thinking it is, and it's yeah out of the corner of Sway Road over here, that is the [38:43] Steve Zamorowski: conscience of Sawyer Road is a project that was approved 10 years ago probably. It's really kind of floundered a bit. There might be a dozen or 15 single-family homes in there so far. This proposal is for five duplexes, so 10 new units. I don't know much more than that Lord you're run frankly. I think it's still owned and it's being proposed by the original developer. You've got some divided and he's run into a series of challenges in that project, it's [39:16] Speaker C (unidentified): never really taken off. When I was originally talking to them about that because I was looking at the property out there, they said their eventual plan and what they had approval for was eventually [39:25] Steve Zamorowski: Eventually it would connect to the Downs, yep, they own a button, they actually sold back land to the Downs, but yes, the road layout, the network provides for that. We want as many interconnections as we can, I think it's good planning, right, yeah, except you know people, I'm sorry, I wrote that will probably be dead set against it, but well again it's going to be, so it's it's way out of the way, yeah, they're closing a different soil, no, that's it, that's over by, but yeah, these will be residential scale. They'll probably be 20 foot wide curve to curve, kind of 10 foot lanes, really meant for logo speed, yeah, twist and turn, so it's not going to be your fastest room necessarily, right, and I'm sure that's probably at least probably six or seven years down the road to connect to the Downs would be my guess, yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of work to be done to get to that point of the project for sure, and so I was interested and pleased to see this coming back around because I don't think they've had approvals for probably [40:35] Speaker C (unidentified): four years at this point, anything new, I know they were also looking to do as you go in there off to the right, they were looking to do a senior facility off to the right as you come in the drive [40:45] Steve Zamorowski: five where the house lots are now, some thought of that for sure, the other thing the council's done that like you might find interested, it's not housing related, but they are advancing a ban on data centers in town, we've heard about that, yeah, it's an interesting topic that's grabbed not just National but it seems like worldwide attention right now, and one that seemingly seems to have bipartisan interest in support. [41:19] Bill Donovan: Council seemed to be with one mind on that too. Strong support for banning data centers for the time being. If they could ever solve all the myriad of problems, I'm sure a future town council would be willing to take it up. But at the present time, it's pretty much unanimous that it's it's not a good idea to advance and therefore the band that [41:50] Steve Zamorowski: ordinance bad, yeah, the council's chosen to take a pretty a very blunt approach to kind of ban, and I know Sam offered some public comment around, you know, there are other ways to do it, to be a little more thoughtful and surgical about defining different aspects of the use that are objectionable or unacceptable, and allowing, you know, smaller ones or something like that, and that's certainly possible, but this is a very fast-moving set of technologies and I think you're probably wise to take a take a Beat and see what, how technology solves this problem, and it may well be, as Bill says, it may well be that in the very near future there are solutions that are readily available that make these things not as objectionable, correctly. [42:43] Speaker C (unidentified): Yeah, I think they did good by doing that, because it's moving really fast and put some breaks on this a little bit. [42:50] Steve Zamorowski: Yeah, so that's it advancing through, and as Bill says, it's been receiving support from council. I think we'll continue to. I see no reason to change course in this form. [43:03] Tom Hall: Okay. Thank you. These are helpful. It was just to have a sense of what housing options are coming down the pike without scouring the agendas, council and planning board agendas. Item seven, possible interest in future topics. Anything specific? [43:24] Speaker C (unidentified): I think the major thing is broad and long term. Yeah. [43:28] Bill Shanahan: I did have one topic. Go ahead. [43:30] Steve Zamorowski: Well, I was going to say, I'm going to include the housing assessment just because I think we may- Oh, yeah, we may have something that's ongoing, right, we can, Sam can report at your next meeting on this Tibbets room property, just so it's a placeholder, right, that makes sense, yeah, okay, absolutely, go ahead Sam, looking forward to new [43:53] Bill Shanahan: housing, either affordable housing or workforce housing, senior housing. One of the things that I'm concerned about is that I guess the either the change of the law or the interpretation that we can't provide preference to our residents for these things, yeah, I guess we did so, it like Jocelyn, we did, yeah, now we can't do that, correct, I would like to explore the nuances of that and figure out if we can lobby for some changes, if there's anything we can do to be creative around that, because I feel like if the top in this case, let's say Tibbetts, where we get whatever workforce housing we've had, 10 units, and it's horrible housing, we love our teachers and police officers to have the first shot, that I'd love to be able to do, that sounds like it's illegal now, it's also federal for housing, right, so the question is there anything or we do or could we lobby or I don't know what we can do. I'm going to take the hill guys. So could we get that changed? Or could we just at least figure out what's the best way to give our people the fair shot, do a lottery system. People apply, anybody who is worthy of the, you know, fits in the parameters, you put your hand, your hat, name in the hat, you pull it out. At least that gives some chance for local people to get, because I think the challenge, the perception around her, the support for deeded housing and affordable housing, with whatever you want to call this, that people feel like it's not for them, it's for somebody else. And that's true about a lot of this housing, right? So if there's anything we can do that they're dressed out, I think we should [45:54] Speaker C (unidentified): explore that. And I don't think our citizens understand what we're up against as to why we can't do that, because we have had people come to the meetings. And maybe if we can't do anything, come up with an explanation so people can understand that we would love to do it, but we just can't, and the reasons why. And if we can find a way to make a change, that's great, but [46:18] Tom Hall: that makes sense to me. I just, it does, it just in terms of packaging it and having us and others understand where these rules come from and what the challenges might be. It is, it's more than a trip to Augusta to change these things. [46:37] Steve Zamorowski: For projects, and Eric and Bill, certainly speak up, you know more about this than me, but for projects that are funded through the LIHTC program, this is of huge importance. That's not to say that we're all subject to fair housing, even a private sale needs to be right. I think it's a little different at the private sale level, where a seller can choose to sell to a buyer however they come to that conclusion, but technically, legally, we all need to abide by the same rules. Sure, it's not just, there may be a way to come up with a system, whether it's lottery or otherwise, that respects that [47:23] Tom Hall: but provide some level of, you know, there are master lease propositions, for instance, you know, where you own the property or you're master leasing the property and you then can decide as an employer maybe your employees live there because you own it, right? That's, you can do that, you can, you can, there are limitations to that, but you start to, it starts to get into like an ownership proposition versus simple marketing, out-to-market. [47:53] Steve Zamorowski: Well, Eric, isn't Developers Collaborative doing a project in coordination with Bath Ironworks for their employees? [48:01] Speaker E (unidentified): Yes, that is correct. [48:04] Steve Zamorowski: How do you get around that? [48:06] Tom Hall: I think that's the nuance that we're talking about. [Speaker E (unidentified): They own it.] Right, they own it. If you own it, you can put anyone in there because they're part of your family, so to speak. But I don't know whether like the school department would want to own rental property to house teachers and so forth. I you know it's or maybe they would, maybe they would, but I think I think it's worth pursuing and getting yeah you know understanding the limits to that and look at some models. Maybe the Baff Ironworks developers collaborative model is [48:42] Steve Zamorowski: something. Yeah, we had a profile. I think I was thinking maybe incorrectly that Tim It's Road and it would be single family and it would be you know you're selling it, we're not holding an ownership interest beyond [48:57] Bill Shanahan: it's a clean sheet of paper to have to, we don't know what it is. Excuse me, I'm Korean. [49:05] Speaker C (unidentified): But how did Jocelyn end up doing what they did because they did give preference to [49:11] Steve Zamorowski: town. You need to read the language, it was very carefully worded by multiple attorneys. It's not but they got that, didn't they get the they did don't do that again and then we could push back the next time we asked for it. But it's not a hard and fast local preference difference. There's some artfully worded language to get as close to that as we possibly could and in the end we did kind of an audit. I forget the numbers but there's 60 units I think in fact there were last time I looked there were like 14 or 15 that were actually Scarborough residents. [49:47] Tom Hall: Fuller through visit that does that does sugar off that way that the local and have local residents tend to get in early and yeah and they do. I think as you go forward there may even be information available on projects that have been printed out but that's [50:05] Bill Shanahan: typically what happens. Yeah, I think we just need to be sensitive to the message. We all we often hear why can't our teachers and our firefighters and live in our town so that's I think that's [50:17] Tom Hall: a real thing, it's it's totally valid. I know if we can gain some information and provide some insight I think that's helpful. I don't I don't know where it'll shake out. Where do we start with that lawyers [50:34] Steve Zamorowski: before we are on the clock. I think the conversation is probably easier to be had around something tangible, something specific rather than this conceptual. I don't know how we I think from [50:49] Speaker C (unidentified): My perspective, the starting point is for us to come up with an education piece that we can give to our citizens, because citizens have come to these meetings before and said, like when they were doing the flea marketplace down on Dunstan, they were asking why Scarborough residents, presidents, couldn't have first right. They don't know, and I think we owe to, we owe it to our citizens to at least be able to educate them on that, and then go from there and see where we can. [51:14] Steve Zamorowski: Come up with, yeah, like those screen, it makes perfect intuitive sense, I, but there are. [51:22] Tom Hall: Organizations that, you know, Eric's old organization, Investor South Boylan Housing Authority, they have asset management teams that are schooled in, like, and discerning on what tenant eligibility is, so they would have a practical knowledge of how to do that. We could ask them, but you could cut to the chase, go to the lawyers, and that you'd have to define them, but I think the. [51:52] Steve Zamorowski: questions that they will ask is it are you retaining ownership are you selling it or all those sorts of things matter greatly in terms of how you breed this. That's why I'm saying having a conceptual discussion, I think, will be chasing a tail. If we have a project to say this is what we're thinking and we love it, 's our way to provide local preference in this context. [52:11] Bill Shanahan: I look at it the other way. I look at that we have a goal. We're going to build 10 units and we want to see if we can give preference, whatever that means, to our residents or our workers, how will we structure that, right, instead of them asking us questions, we ask them how do you structure it so you can do that. Is it possible, maybe it's not possible, it'd be good if. [52:37] Speaker C (unidentified): We could lease the land and have someone build on it, but that's probably not possible, why, let. [52:42] Tom Hall: Me ask some practitioners, you know, that are out and figure out how, you know, what, how they, how would they, and answer the question advanced and see if we can. I think it's great, I think. [52:55] Steve Zamorowski: We ought to, I appreciate your repeat, you know, it just occurred to me why it would make sense to ask these questions now, because then you could design a project to in such a way that it would. [53:05] Bill Shanahan: Right, make that possible when the sheet of paper is still clear, yeah, I. [53:12] Tom Hall: Think it belongs on the. [53:14] Steve Zamorowski: Agenda, you know, so for lack of a better way, I'll just say local preference, maybe I'll wordsmith. [53:20] Bill Shanahan: That a little more before the next meeting, but clear housing. Yeah, the other thing, I mean, I'm always full of ideas, you know, you know me. Is, I mean, from conversations the other night at our meeting, the perception is that the town council is doing nothing with growth, no control of growth, thing that we're growing out of control. Isn't it true that we haven't issued all of our great global permits for the last couple years? Somebody's got to communicate that to people, and somebody's got to continue to communicate that the state does manage our growth to some degree, quite a bit of degree. That's important. The other thing I think we need to do is better understanding, because people are saying on the tips and this and see EA's, I always say that we're not giving our money away. Somebody's got to communicate these people that it's not giving money away. You know what we're trying to do is balance what the cut the ins and the outs, and we're trying. Everybody says people shouldn't be going to send it to come here and build no it's not if they're going to build to what they're going to build that we have control everybody says we want to control growth well one of the control mechanisms are these tax incentives where you can get a senior housing development built instead of for single-family homes or whatever the cost of a single-family home is it still 75 percent that we get from taxes [54:57] Steve Zamorowski: with based on the cost of supporting that home? No, single family home is a big time loss leader, right? That's what I'm saying, enough taxes to cover. That's what I'm saying, 75 cost of service. No, it's the lost leader, we're losing money on single payment. No, that's what I'm saying, they [55:13] Bill Shanahan: they only paid 75 percent of what it cost us to service them. Okay, excuse me, I don't know. So the question that needs to be, okay, what we're asking is we're going to build certain kinds of units, it's where it doesn't cost us as much to service these companies facilities. We're putting something in that we think the town needs, and in the end it doesn't, we're not giving money to anybody, you know what I'm saying? I do look, but it gets lost in the, it's, it gets lost in the messaging because people maybe don't want to hear it, or they just haven't communicated growth as well. Yeah, all growth is bad. [55:55] Steve Zamorowski: No, believe me, I struggled with this 35 years in this business, working with hundreds of elected officials, and I have come down to the position where my job is to make sure that seven members of council or button my elected officials understand the difference between the two, and believe me, that's even challenging, and understand, you know, the real details. Getting message out to the wider audience, the public, is nearly impossible, and I am ashamed to kind of admit how, and I've given the good value. Try we have, and it's easiest to talk about a very tangible example. This is this project, and right, what that gives you is the ability to do an analysis on cost to serve. What this is, right, we're posing or say in exchange for our support, we want you to invest in such that meets it underneath of ours, right. So it's really there you do this trade-off analysis, right. The Downs project obviously is the poster child, and we have done very detailed physical analysis that calculates to the dollar of what. They're paying to us, what we're paying back to them through the CEA, and what it costs us to serve, and right now the ROI is extremely positive, and that thing is that it will continue. Nobody knows. [57:21] Bill Shanahan: They think that they think that the Downs is this evil empire that's sucking our money out of the. [57:27] Steve Zamorowski: Town anyway, and the biggest misconception with all of this is for about four is that it's not corporate greed. It's the legitimate business decision to say I will come here and I'll do this, but I need your support, and if I can't get your support, it's not a threat, it's a reality of the business. I won't, and so the payback to that only happens when they agree value. So they assume all the risk up front, they create the value of the base tax, and only at that point do we return turn a piece to them. And I think that gets lost, that it's not just a handout, you know, outlining their pockets. But those are tough concepts to convey. The average homeowner says, I want a CEA, why don't you give me some back on my taxes? [58:17] Speaker C (unidentified): What I can see to his point is what we've gone over earlier, you've got 24 single family homes going into Downs. You just said it's a loss leader. People are looking at that and going, knowing why are we allowing this because they're a loss leader for the town. Yeah, this is a. [58:31] Steve Zamorowski: That's a mixed-use developer. Yeah, you look at any slice of that development and do the analysis, and some will be up and some will be down, but on balance, and that's what the fiscal analysis does, in the mixed-use development of all different housing types, because rentals are one-bedroom apartments are far different than single, you know, 4,000 foot single family homes. So in the it comes out of the wash and it's an extremely positive online. No, I understand it's just it's [58:59] Speaker C (unidentified): Just the assumption that people determine from that makes the doubts be labeled the way it [59:05] Bill Shanahan: Is during the budget or some time at the town meeting where it's on simply on a recording where people can go back and take it to that. Can I hear that again? Sure. No, we've got all sorts of [59:16] Steve Zamorowski: Resources on our website. You know, I'm pleased to direct your attention to if you want to know [59:21] Bill Shanahan: More about it. You know, as far as like communicating that to the general public, again, like as an update, yeah, like this, because I did push back another 35 pushback and every time that don comes up is pushback and grown. It's like I'm tired of it. 's an easy critique and it's a [59:43] Steve Zamorowski: High profile in most cases uninformed critique. In other cases people know full well the details and they choose to use it because it's an easy cheap way to get. I'll get over it I think. No, I listened to the comments last night, yeah, and it was disheartening to hear how many people said and no more tips, right, and tips frankly are to our advantage. We're losing, you know, as much as 30 percent from the state by not tipping projects, yeah. [1:00:17] Speaker C (unidentified): I don't think in the rest of your career with the town of Scarborough you could probably [1:00:21] Steve Zamorowski: No get people to stop saying no. That's why I'm I'm I'm finally to the point where that is a piece with this now, not really, but I need to focus on making sure my decision makers know it and understand that they can make informed decisions first before costing. [1:00:38] Bill Shanahan: Yeah, there's just some people that will just choose to ignore what you might and my concern is because when their constituents say no tips, no CEAs, that's what we hear. Yep. [1:00:52] Steve Zamorowski: Yep. So just for your benefit, CEAs is what the people are concerned with. Right. You know that. Yes. So what people think you can do is correct people. [1:01:03] Bill Shanahan: Right. Where the developer gets a piece of the text. Right. Right. [1:01:07] Steve Zamorowski: A tip is a prerequisite for a CEA and some will object to them on that basis. I mean [1:01:16] Speaker C (unidentified): you labeled it perfectly when you're talking about the changes that are going to be made to Payne Road as part of this that 's something that has to happen in order for these other things to happen because they're providing another service for us to help alleviate traffic [1:01:33] Steve Zamorowski: and make it safer and right and just high level oversimplification. They estimate they're to invest about 250 million in the infrastructure. That infrastructure is going to be turned over to us, so we're not building it, they are. Right. And you know some of that will go to the sanitary district, right, the sewer lines, but the roads and all the improvements on-site and off-site, those will accrue to us at some point in exchange if they run the table, they meet all their numbers, they could get as much as 80 million bucks back through the cea so in my mind they are assuming all the upfront risks they're invested making the investment they're creating value they're paying tax and we are helping underwrite after the facts a portion I don't know what percent that is of their search for costs that's why people don't understand they think we're just giving it all away right and I'm on my soapbox you know it's the simplest example and this is kind of the classic tip 101 so manufacturing a company comes to town so I want to build this a plant i'm going to put you know 10 million dollars of value in i'm going to employ 200 people but i gotta get a sewer line a mile to get to it and i but for that i can't do it and so the classic simplest example of a tiff is that all right we'll help you to underwrite the cost of that sewer line and you do it through a tip in a cea and i think that but four piece is lost in the rhetoric, if you will. The assumption is they would do what they're doing without our assistance. That is not a fair assumption. They might do something, but not to the level that they have done and intend to do. Right. And that's all I'm gonna say about that. [1:03:22] Speaker C (unidentified): This is your Forrest Gump moment. Yeah, that's all I have to say. [1:03:25] Bill Shanahan: No, it's just groundhog days. [1:03:27] Steve Zamorowski: My Forrest Gump is, I'm tired, I'm gonna go home. [1:03:37] Tom Hall: Unless there's anything else, we can move on to public comment. I see no one present and no one online, then no attendees, there you are. Unless there's any other business, we could emotion. All those in favor, great. Yeah, I know, all right, excellent, very efficient, thank you all. [1:04:04] Steve Zamorowski: Thank you, good discussion, yes, thank you, thanks Bill, thanks Bill, Jane Berry had told me she was