Speakers labeled via automated voice-based diarization + AI name-matching against the city's official roster. Automated transcription can still mis-hear a name during fast speech (e.g. a rapid roll-call vote) -- clear near-misses are auto-corrected, but this is not manually verified line-by-line. Treat names as a strong best guess, not an official record.
[0:36] Susan Hawes: See our lives. Okay, good evening, welcome everybody. We should have a room like this always. I'm so awesome, council chair. We have one item on the agenda tonight, which is the school budget. So what I think we'll do quickly is just go around the room, introduce yourself, and when that's all finished, we're going to turn it over to Marie Robbins. You want to start? Sure.
[1:03] Carolyn Fish: Sure, Carolyn Fiction, I'm on the Bangor City Council, Counselor Daniel Person, Counselor Angela.
[1:10] Angela Walker: Walker, City Manager Carollynn Lear, Marie Robinson, Superintendent, Heather Hale, Director.
[1:18] Katie Bryden: Of Business Services for the School Department, I'm Katie Bryden, I'm Vice Chair of the School Committee.
[1:22] Carolyn Fish: School Committee member Sarah Lugiano, School Committee member.
[1:28] Ben Sprague: Ben Sprague, School Committee, Susan from Louisville City Council, Michael Back, City Council, Councillor Leonard, Tim Surratt, Chair School Committee, Ben Speed, School Committee, Susan Deane.
[1:42] Susan Deane: Bager, City Councillor. Okay, we were going or thought we were going to have a counselor on.
[1:48] Susan Hawes: Remote, he has not come in, so I'm not sure if he's going to join us, we'll announce it when he comes.
[1:56] Ben Sprague: Is in, so I'm going to leave this up so we can. Okay, before we begin, we had tabled a conflict.
[2:03] Michael Beck: Of influence disclosure and told the nice meeting the school right away Meller that we need to.
[2:08] Ben Sprague: Proceed on and vote on. Okay, do I need to restate the motion? Yeah, I would say probably yes.
[2:16] Michael Beck: So the motion I made, the disclosure I made was pursuant to Section 3311b of the Bangor or Code, formally disclosing the belief that Councillor Mallar has a special interest regarding the school budget and the gross appropriation for the support of the public schools. Specifically on the record, Keller Mallory stated the school department's asking for a 10 increase, as far as I'm concerned they get no increase, they can't speak English, read English, or write English, it's not a disability, we do not. Have to furnish, they're probably all illegals anyway, in my view. These statements move beyond the ordinary political disagreement and into the realm of special interest for the following reasons. Under 33 2 of the Code of Ethics, of special interest is defined, it's having interest, having value peculiar, individual group that is not shared by the general public, and by targeting students based on presumption of their immigration status and national origin, the counselor is acting on a personal bias. Rather than a general public interest in fiscal oversight. Section 33.5.1 of our code establishes a clear expectation of unbiased, fair, impartial, and equitable treatment of all persons. It explicitly prohibits discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, or cultural group. Finally, the declaration of policy in 33.1 requires that councilors be fair, impartial, and responsive to the needs of the people to inspire public confidence in the integrity of the city's government and publicly disparaging a segment of the student body as quote illegals while simultaneously vowing to deny all funding to their department creates at minimum the appearance of an inability to deliberate impartially therefore madam chair pursuant to section 3311c i move that the council determine that council maller has a special interest regarding the school budget
[4:02] Ben Sprague: and the gross appropriation for the support of the public schools okay is there any discussion on that
[4:11] Carolyn Fish: I think we need a second. Do we need a second on that?
[4:14] Joseph Leonard: Well, it was motioned in second and before, but I'll say that again.
[4:17] Susan Hawes: Just for the record. So any discussion? Questions? Okay, we have a for you.
[4:31] Daniel Carson: My question is that, or rather, my comment is that because this question deals with bias, I would have to at least suggest that I am not particularly confident in my legal ability to address that question and for me I need I would need legal guidance on that definition I would I would need a better to be
[4:59] Carolyn Fish: able to make a determination on this question that's okay I like to feel that there have been conversations and comments made about school budgets including some things that counselors have mentioned the best that they didn't think perhaps would be necessary whether it was you know music art or whenever we're looking at a budget to cut back and again i would have to go back and think about when those remarks were made or future remarks made about athletic departments or anything else in budget, if those could be determined, potentially biased. And I think with this particular comment, not that I agree that children shouldn't be taught. I'm a supporter of all children, no matter who their parents are, should get all the support that we can provide as a society. But I think that this opens a great deal of consideration about consistency and more thorough thought about what is construed as biased and what is not. So I, too, am not sure that this really boils down to a conflict of interest is the budget as a whole. that's
[6:29] Michael Beck: okay for me there's no slippery slope here what differentiates this situation from anything else is that he's explicitly tied his vote on school funding to who these students are and that is not an interest held by the public generally they're interested in fiscal oversight not discrimination and i would say that the charter vests in us the power to decide what is it isn't a conflict it's a yes or no vote if you think it's a conflict then it's a conflict that's what our charter says regardless of what the legal guidance. Sure, but it's a decision ultimately that falls with us, regardless of legal advice.
[7:13] Carolyn Fish: If we could ask that specific question of him, to answer yes or no, that's exactly. But I would feel better if he had, we had the opportunity to hear from him. That is exactly what's his intent and how he exactly intends to not vote for budget. There's private comment on life, and that's a good point, but then again, I don't think you're going to need to from him to determine where that was coming from and actually what he is. And so I think that's a specific question he needs to answer. The
[7:48] Susan Hawes: question, okay, the question has been moved whether Councilor Mallow has a conflict of interest on voting on the budget. Remember, we're not closing on the budget, where the point where I just
[8:03] Michael Beck: read it wasn't about the whole budget, it's just about the gross important issues.
[8:08] Ben Sprague: Right, but we aren't voting. Well, we will eventually. This is, this takes a discussion piece, yeah.
[8:15] Susan Hawes: And it's basically yes or no. If you feel like you have that he does have a conflict, we will vote yes. If he doesn't, it would be no.
[8:26] Ben Sprague: would you like me to call yeah sure yes counselor
[8:38] Carolyn Fish: carson no that's a fish counselor haas no counselor dean no counselor leonard yes
[8:50] Ben Sprague: counselor beck yes counselor falloon yes we have a time so it doesn't pass yeah no conflict
[9:01] Susan Hawes: What's the title? It is defeated, so we'll go down. There's no conflict with this, okay.
[9:10] Tim Surratt: Could Shelly introduce yourself, and can I say just, yeah, sure.
[9:17] Angela Walker: Okay, yeah, just your name, or
[9:21] Carolyn Fish: I'm Shelly O'Cary. I'd love to be here. I apologize for being late. I have
[9:27] Angela Walker: three kiddos in soccer and limited spousal help.
[9:32] Tim Surratt: I just, I want to just take an opportunity to thank the council for having us here tonight, for all of your engagement. We were all very happy that you came to our budget workshop several weeks ago, especially thank Counselor Leonard for coming to so many of our meetings and peer engagement. Thank you Lieutenant Robinson and Director Hale for all their work on the budget. Represents hundreds, if not thousands of hours labor on the part of our educators, our department heads, our principals, central office administration. This budget has been carefully vetted and unanimously approved by the school committee, so there's broad support on the committee for the budget. And as you'll see, overwhelmingly this budget is people. It's teachers, it's educational technicians, it's coaches, it's mentors, it's school counselors, it's principals and on and on who serve our 3700 plus students on a daily basis.
[10:27] Carolyn Fish: Superintendent Robinson, is that presentation going to go? I believe it's the PDF you can click right out [Susan Faloon: here and then] and then if you go back to the zoom
[11:02] Susan Hawes: Great, okay.
[11:06] Angela Walker: Well, I will echo Chair Surrett's message and just want to extend my gratitude for all of the support, having you participate and just view the presentation the first time, first and I believe second time. It's really helpful so that we have a collective understanding of the whole process. I also want to thank our administrators and other staff members who have attended this evening in a show of support. This budget reflects all of the hard work of everyone involved, so I'm just going to run through kind of the process that we have undertaken and continue to do each year. So it's around November, December budgets go out, like budgets, and the departments, whether it's administrators or heads of a specific department such as facilities, technology, they do their due diligence. Administrators will talk with their staff and teachers putting together a really solid budget that ensures that high quality learning continues and that we meet the needs of all students. That has been the ongoing challenge. With our school budget, we are seeing those increase of needs, so everyone is paying very close attention to making sure that high quality continues and that all of the support supports that are needed are in place. So following that, the departments will collect their budgets, they submit them to myself and Director Hale. We then have individual meetings with each of them, and we go through line by line. And then one thing that I've been really diligent about, and you can ask any of the administrators I've asked a lot of questions, you know, and Director Hale, I mean, both of us coming in new, we're really trying to dig in and to ensure that, you know, is this something we absolutely need? Is this something that could potentially be, you know, could we wait until next year? Is this, you know, all of those types of questions go through this process, and that's why I feel extremely confident in what we're bringing here tonight. So through that, those individual meetings happen, requests are submitted, not all requests are honored. We go through our budgeting process, which is a policy within our school department and really aligns to our strategic plan and core values. So I'll just move on to that portion, and this is what the agenda is going to entail for this evening. I've pared down the original presentation just to make sure that we have enough time for any questions and anything at all that needs to be discussed. We have talking about the strategic plan and core values and how our budget aligns to that. The review of changes, we had one significant change that I'll talk about. We did receive additional state subsidy, which I will talk a little bit about as well. And then go into the general fund revenue and the budgeted, the budget breakdown by cost center and division, and then open it up for any questions. So our 10-year strategic plan includes the four core values of excellence learning and teaching, engaged relationships, and safety and well-being, and that's a lens that we follow looking in, and of course maintaining that fiscal responsibility. So that's what's being looked at and reviewed through the multiple iterations. So the whole budget process Continues after we have the individual departments, our business office puts it together as a full budget, and then Director Hale and I went through, I would say, three or four times just going over really line by my mind, again, questioning, digging. We've done a lot to realign and recategorize things that to just further align the budget into the appropriate state category. So some of the changes in the call centers reflect that it's a shift, not necessarily an increase. And Director Hale will be able to speak more to that if there are
[15:23] Carolyn Fish: our specific questions so
[15:27] Angela Walker: Our biggest shift since March of 25th, since March 25th, is the reduction in insurance. We had originally anticipated, I guess, the general, the general inclusion for health insurance was about 20% regionally. A lot of the superintendents in the region had included a 20% increase just to ensure that we wouldn't be caught off guard, because those are the preliminary, that's the preliminary information that comes to us. The challenge with insurance, I'm not sure how it works with the city, but we don't get that notification of exactly what our rates are going to be until early April. So we're always starting off with we don't want to be blindsided by a huge increase. So we had 20, we dropped it down to 14. They give us periodic updates, so it might, I think it was mid-March when they sent correspondence saying that they're in process, but they don't expect it to go over 14%. So then we dropped it to 14. Fortunately, it came in lower than that. And I'm blanking on the exact. So then it came in at 8.6. So that was great news and allowed us to reduce the budget by a little over a half a million dollars. dollars. This additional state subsidy is a recent one-time additional aid, and this was, I'm sure you saw through the governor adding that for schools, and we are still, there's, there's details there. It's based on our disadvantaged student population of 40 or higher, and we're still awaiting guidance on specifics in terms of what that needs to be used for. Here's, are estimated general fund revenue, we can see that the [Carolyn Fish: I'm] Not going to read, I'm not going to read through all of the numbers. You can review those and I'm happy to answer any questions. But if you look down at the very bottom total, you can see the comparison. Right now we are at a 5.58 percent increase. Prior to the most recent reduction, we were up above six percent, it was six point four three, but we are now at five point five eight. That is comparable, it's a little higher than what it was last year, and for various reasons we've added additional staff members again for student support, its staffing, but we've also balanced that with some positions of retirements. We do a close look at that and the administrators are great with offering that guidance and saying, well, based on our enrollment, this position isn't needed. We also were able to do some shifting where at one elementary school, the enrollment was such that we could transfer a teacher to another open position in another school. So we are really looking closely at those aspects and trying to make sure that we are bringing forth the most fiscally responsible budget, but also, you know, maintaining that high quality learning and student support. So 5.58 is where we are, which I feel great about. Some schools I'm sure you've seen are in the double digits. Budgets, so I think we're good there. And then this breaks down the budget categories. Each of the categories, and these are determined by the state. So there's regular instruction, special education, other instruction, student and staff support, system administration, school administration, transportation, facilities maintenance, debt service, and all other expenditures and there are controlled items that go in each of those categories so that's not something that we decide that's decided by the state and that reflects our same increase and I've also included a graph just as a visual to be able to see just as was mentioned regular the Instruction construction, instructional costs are really the bulk of our expenditures and as they should be. Our staff and our teachers are really the front lines that make all the magic happen with our students. And that's just a reminder to all of us to keep in mind that it's frustrating when costs are rising and we need to sometimes add staff for, even though we're seeing a slight decline in the enrollment it's kind of steadied off this year and it fluctuates so frequently I'm not sure exactly where we stand right now but it is it is something that we have to be mindful of that we are here to educate students and as I mentioned in my first presentation the public school has the doors open the doors are open for anyone who comes through those doors and we have the duty the moral and ethical duty to educate them to the highest degree possible and that oftentimes for various populations means more supports and that's our duty and that's our responsibility and I take great responsibility in making sure that 's happening within the school department so when we add certain staff and sometimes it's for extra student support. Sometimes it is those multilingual services. Those are direct services that are allowing our students to access curriculum and to achieve at high levels. So it's absolutely essential that we continue to add staff as needed in those areas. This next slide, this breaks down each of the costs into our schools and specific departments and divisions within the city and you can look through that again some of those shifts and percentages are related to shifts in budgetary items maybe it's going from a school to maybe technology because technology oversees all of the subscriptions things of that sort so there's a variety of reasons for the changes in percentages and that's the full picture here I'm happy to answer specific questions as I said I'm not going into too full of depth because first of all I think everyone saw the presentation that I did for the school committee and the school committee has voted and they have given their final approval and I feel very confident with what we've put together
[22:42] Joseph Leonard: I won't start off with a question first though, I do have some later that I do want to ask, but I did want to point out just because you didn't mention, I want to give you guys credit because originally we were looking at a 6.9% increase for the school budget that went down to 6.43 percent and that was at just shy of four million dollars of an increase and so i'm just really happy to hear that went down to 5.8 5.58 percent today so i just i want to commend you for doing that 's a massive decrease so again thank you
[23:26] Carolyn Fish: That's okay. You may not be able to answer this, but it's very concerning to see the trend in the last few years of those with special needs that need special education. And I think this generation of children coming up through, we're seeing the effects of technology, the interface with technology and social media, just the way they learn. Do you see this percentage increasing? And I know that also requires taxis, you know, almost one-on-one with the teacher and student. Do you see this percentage continuing to increase? And secondly, I know we've been going to convention. Is there any talk of greater federal funding out helping with this trend we're seeing in the schools? Well, there
[24:12] Angela Walker: is definitely, I would say, a silver lining that I'm hopeful for. So currently the child development services, which is early intervention for, I don't know exactly what year, it's probably birth, yeah, birth to four, that support, and this isn't what has been an outside agency that supports students with additional needs, special needs. What's happening right now is we're transitioning back to the schools, so the schools are taking on finding the children that are requiring special needs services, and then we are providing those services, but it's state funded. So that is huge for the school system because number one, we're getting the state support, but number two, it is getting at students earlier. And many of us are aware, and if you're not, it's, you know, very well vetted in research that early intervention pays dividends in the long run. Things that you mentioned, counselor Fish, around technology is very valid, particularly, I would say, with speech services. In my career, speech services used to be, years ago, few and far between. These days, it's common and it's costly. So my hope is that when we take on the four-year-olds in the fall of 26, and then the next phase is taking on three-year-olds, that we'll be able to see greater services being provided it on a more consistent basis, which ultimately in, you know, typical thinking would lead to a reduction in those costs in the future. So there's a hope for that. In addition to funding, I do want to just reiterate, if you haven't been privy to any of the conversations we've had just lightly around a 501c3 being formed so that's in process as well. The school committee has an upcoming workshop in the early June. And that's going to be our heavy focus right there. So I did that in my previous district, we created a 501 c three that's still functioning today, different than what I'm looking to do here with the support of the committee. But I do believe that we can set that up to be a really strong support in you know, whatever direction we decide to go with that thank you thank you thank you
[26:48] Susan Hawes: thank you so I actually had
[26:54] Susan Faloon: a constituent message me with questions so I wanted to bring it forward actually send it to three minutes earlier but I thought it might be a good to bring up this meeting so I was asked if thorough assessments of future Bangor school enrollment and demographic trends have been done to evaluate the need for existing school buildings that need repairs and this is related to i guess a recent story of eight different community clusters as part of me that are looking at merging into a single high school for its area sorry i won't be able to provide a whole lot more context other than that but so yeah and in this situation was just looking to know kind of what
[27:40] Angela Walker: the city and the school leadership we did conduct an enrollment study last year and that does show a steady decline over the next i think it goes to 2035 i'd have to i can get that i can share that if everyone is interested and i think how that and we're not a part of high school consolidation. That is, I don't know off the top of my head which particular schools are involved. It was something that I was aware of definitely up north. There was a lot of talk of consolidation. So I'd have to look into that. What I can say to speak to all of that, certainly everyone's aware of the sudden need to do some reorganizing and making some changes with our buildings. And that's just the beginning. This is the beginning of a longer conversation around the facilities this was intended to be part of our strategic planning process which has is underway and we are going to be hearing that draft analysis on at our second meeting in May so we'll get some of that preliminary the preliminary results from all the listening sessions of staff students community members families that have participated in those sessions over the winter so we are in the process of taking a deeper dive to our facilities I was very hopeful that this would be a three to five year process. Unfortunately, things have come to light that are accelerating that timeline, and we are looking to immediately start that deeper conversation of what are we doing with our facilities. So it's definitely a consideration. The Bangor School Department is not involved right now in any high school consolidation, but we are looking at facilities and aiming to get as much input as possible on what the possible, what the next step should be. and I'll just add and I'm sure you're hearing
[29:40] Susan Faloon: it too but we're getting a lot of you know concern about you know what's going on with the facilities and the Fairmont school and then I've actually had it raised to me that like the Bangor high school is not exactly new and it's probably only a matter of time here so
[29:56] Angela Walker: obviously we have appreciative conversations as well yes and i would say across the board there's been significant investment in many of our schools and i think that's where the closer look needs to be back in when i first started there was already process was already underway the application for the needs assessment which is kind of phase one that goes to the state so there was a needs assessment application that was submitted in August of 24 and then in it was early maybe winter of 25 is when the state came and they walked through the building so the needs assessment was put in for Downeast Fairmount and Mary Snell but since then there's I mean in between the time that the application was submitted and that they came there was work being done so the work was completed. So the state puts out a list of subsidized funding projects in terms of school construction. And there were 98 schools on that list because, as I'm sure you're aware, aging facilities is commonplace throughout our state and probably the country. So the first two projects on that list have been subsidized by the state. So there's limited funding when we're looking at those things. So that's one of the reasons, you know, we're trying to think about alternatives, you know, can we, you know, what are the options and really think creatively about that. I mean, brand new schools are easy, $120, $130 million. Is there a way to not have to do that? That's what I'd love to discover through the process, because it is a huge investment.
[31:50] Joseph Leonard: There were a lot of things I just wanted to touch up on, so I apologize, I'm going to throw a bunch of things at you, but to touch back really quickly to that 501c3. Three, how many are, is a school in Maine allowed to have underneath this umbrella? So it's
[32:12] Angela Walker: six it's a great question i'm looking to start one so i haven't really explored the number i mean it 's quite an undertaking we'll be able to develop a sustainable 501c3 so really my focus has just been on that it needs to have a designated mission statement we need to have board members who are not part of the school committee so i'm not aware of the number sure that's
[32:36] Joseph Leonard: totally fine. The reason why I bring that up is I know chair members to Red brought up a question regarding grant staff, and I understand that you said that there was a labor issue regarding bringing on more. I just wanted to voice my inclination that I think if you are going to add potentially more 501c3s, I can only speak for myself, but I would want you guys to have more grant staff, just because that's just an easy way for us to bring in more monies into the school system that could otherwise just really help the overall city budget. So if that is going to, if there are going to be more 501c3s, I would love to actually see a dedicated grant staffer for those 501c3s. I don't get it. If you want to talk on that.
[33:35] Angela Walker: Well, it could all be done with one. I don't think it needs multiple. The sun is warm.
[33:43] Carolyn Fish: We do have shades coming.
[33:49] Angela Walker: So yeah, so what I can speak to is, thank you, it's really the top. So I'm like, what just one 501c3 can do is opens up the grant opportunities beyond the public schools. So there's many grants out there that specifically state they are not open for public schools to apply to. So when you have a partnering 501c3, it opens up that funding. So if I could share an example from my previous district, we were able to generate from with a $5 million budget over $250,000 within a couple of years, which was huge for that district and helped to offset some of the salaries based on the mission statement that the 501 C three is created upon. So, you know, it has to all align, but there could potentially the 501 C three can decide to hire staff, depending upon, you know, the, again, the mission and the process that we decided to follow there. Sometimes as an executive director that's hired on, but yes, definitely getting more grants. And it's more about not necessarily adding more programs, because then it taxes the, you know, teachers and administrators, all of that, trying to implement all of these grants, but really to help offset some of the things we're already doing. So that's another purpose of the 501 C 3. Thank you for
[35:29] Joseph Leonard: that explanation and part of the reason why i brought that up is you did mention in a previous budget meeting that even though state subsidies have gone up this year it hasn't really kept up with the economic needs of this year yeah and so like that 's that 's why i thought it'd be important to reiterate chair members comments on that particular So, actually, to piggyback off of Councilor Faloon's comment that was brought on by a member, and also Member Sprague talked about this as well, the need for long-term plans for first school buildings. And recently the Council did have, I can't remember which one of us brought this up, but the discussion about potentially partnering up with the school in regards to looking at not only school buildings but also city buildings that are also in some dire need as well. That there's a lot of aging buildings in this city, and I think coordinating together as a joining elected bodies is really going to help not just assist us at the city level with maintaining these dilapidating buildings and buildings I've just seen their, lifespan just really come and go, but also that there are some things that I think structurally speaking could really be beneficial. And I can't remember which member brought it up, but one of the opportunities that we can see from revitalizing a lot of these school buildings is to address the east west divide in this city, which I know a lot of parents have had issues with in the past, and I guess it's more so a General question for everyone in this body, would we be amendable to having a strategy regarding how we want to approach how to address that problem? Regardless what it is, we want to go into bond or we want to do more collaborations with the state, the legislature, or public private partners. Regardless of what it is, I do think it would be immensely beneficial for us to have staff coordinate with each other to like bring the elected bodies together to address those pretty serious concerns. I don't know if there's a police, yes.
[38:10] Susan Hawes: I don't think there would be an issue with going forward and having discussions, but I think I just want to be clear that the school department has been having these discussions for multiple years and how are they going to handle the aging buildings. At one time they had a piece of property that they had talked about, maybe that would be six 678 and the new high school, easier said than done. This list that the superintendent made reference to is very long. You can ask to be put on it to request a new school, but it's going to take a long time to get it. So certainly planning ahead has been talked about. I don't think the council would be opposed to having those discussions because of our own plight, you know why did buildings. However it's it's going to be interesting, it's a good topic to take up and break it into manageable pieces, but you're going to have to be really transparent with the families because I remember a meeting where somebody simply said they were going to stop a bus route that was going to one school, the phones blew up the next day and that wasn't even a true statement, was just an off-handed remark that somebody made. So that the neighborhoods have been very attached to their neighborhood schools and it's going to be hard to wrench that out of you know existence and move things forward. It will take them a long time to accept that. So I would say if we do this there should be a lot of public participation at each turn so they can be in on
[40:03] Angela Walker: the ground floor. That's the idea and that's been the challenge with this accelerated timeline due to the deferred maintenance at Fairmount and it's certainly not what anyone wanted and it is resulting in some decisions being made without the amount of parent involvement and feedback that I would have loved to have. So we are looking at this as you know temporary relocation at this point, but it is going to immediately launch into what are the next steps.
[40:33] Susan Deane: But it is time for the sewing. It's a question for the city manager and the superintendent.
[40:40] Susan Hawes: How that could come about, or how we could work together and some pre-planning and moving forward. I don't think, I don't see anybody on the council going stop, I'm thinking.
[40:54] Carolyn Fish: Council Fish, I think I recall a conversation where we kind of kicked that idea around, and I think it's a great idea to keep that in mind, what city buildings do we have. But I think until we identify what building and what project and how the schools buildings and projects and issues at hand, until we actually have them in front of us to identify what collaboration or what would work and what wouldn't, it's, it would, it's kind of hard now to speculate until we get to that specific, you know, situation. But it's good that we're all on the same page, I think, to be open-minded to keep that opportunity together, because collaboration would definitely probably help. The budget on both sides of the table, that's correct. I would just add to that, I appreciate.
[41:42] Daniel Carson: The idea too, probably we need to get ourselves together and get caught up with all of our.
[41:47] Carolyn Fish: Buildings, they're probably ahead of us, they probably are in planning for sure, and so I.
[41:57] Joseph Leonard: i just wanted to respond really quick like i 'm not saying that like we do this tomorrow what i'm saying is we need to plan for it tomorrow that's what we need to start doing because like you said counselor we've been talking about this for years but what's the action there over the last few years because this is costing us a lot now and the move for all those kids like I have a family that I talked to that they send their daughter across the street it's absolutely convenient for them they Don't own a car, and it's, it's always that they didn't plan to move there specifically for Fairmount, it was hyper convenient. I don't know what they're gonna do now, so it's, I mean, obviously they're gonna, transportation is gonna be provided to, were, when they, yeah, I appreciate that, thank you. The point being though is that this was a disruption that it's going to cost us money, and it's going to continue to cost us money going into the future. The sooner we can fix this problem, the cheaper it's going. to be at the end of the day so i 'll i'll wait for other questions today i'd have a clarification for
[43:18] Katie Bryden: Comes by, honored. Are you suggesting that it would be best if there were particular members that could get together and say, here are all of the buildings that are vacant and what those needs are going to be, and then what are your needs as a school, and then we could determine if there's opportunities
[43:33] Joseph Leonard: for either building sharing or purchases? That's one idea that I love, but I want to be completely be open to this, absolutely, because like it's more so action I want to see, yeah, and less us talking about it, more so planned actionable items that we can deliver. That's all I'm really saying.
[43:59] Katie Bryden: Yeah, I think that at the very least could address this question of like, I know that you know looking at our buildings and looking at the needs, how many of us are driving and being like, what about that building, what about that building, that building's been empty since I moved here, like what, I don't know who owns them and I don't know what the story is, but if we were able to have that information and have some time around long-term strategies, but you know this isn't ideal, but we've had this you know opportunity on the back burner, now it's time to move something that just give us more information, I think would be beneficial.
[44:36] Susan Faloon: Perhaps a list like the state's list at the city level where we put in order, this building is number one, highest need, this is number two, based on the infrastructure and what's our highest priority, lowest priority, that way we chip away every year
[44:58] Joseph Leonard: like we're working on the budget, yeah, and if I can just piggyback off of that, 's exactly what we do with our wastewater treatment plan, we're not going to replace every single line item that's in there because one, there's no need to because some items, yes, they're old, but we don't need to necessarily replace them right away, but we can at least, what I can't believe I'm blanking on, Amanda, thank you so much, but she always comes forward with an Excel spreadsheet of these are our line items that are green, don't have to worry about them. These are yellow and orange, or how well those are doing, and red is these are immediate concerns. Not being, we adopt that model, but I appreciate that. Now I'm sorry I'm forgetting names right now, but no, I think that would be really worthwhile and worth our, you know, I'm an energy to figure out what that system would look like, because it would benefit everyone, city. All right, I'm going to stop talking right now. I still have more questions, but one
[46:17] Susan Hawes: Thing I want to clarify though, when I said we were talking about this for years and years, didn't mean it wasn't anything being done over that period of time. It's always been on their radar to look at the buildings. There's been multiple projects over the years that work for different schools, so it's not the years and years wasn't that we've been talking about it for years and years. They have been working at it, but they're going to have to continue, and now you have this whole thing of steady decline in enrollment to 2035. So that's something that's got to be watched and put in there. So there's lots going on.
[46:59] Joseph Leonard: I had a really quick response to that, because you had an up in enrollment. And you said it was a plus 5. Yeah, so it still matters. But I was just going to ask, when are we likely going to see that new projection? I can send that tomorrow, okay.
[47:23] Angela Walker: It's from last year and we could get an updated one, but I have the one from last year that goes to
[47:29] Joseph Leonard: 2035. well right now i 'm talking like i 'd love to see the whenever it is available the new projector obviously like no rush on that one i was just happy to see that the
[47:43] Carolyn Fish: the enrollment divide the projections, yeah, and it does, it does dig in, so it's not
[47:49] Angela Walker: always 100 accurate of course, but it does look at birth rates too, you know, typically healthy, okay.
[48:00] Susan Hawes: Other questions? I know you have more of it and others have any, yeah.
[48:10] Michael Beck: That's okay, sure. The situation at Vermont School probably got dropped on all of you right in middle front, do all of this, and I think I already know the answer, but just to ask it anyway, this
[48:24] Ben Sprague: budget includes everything that has to be done for that move, it is going to allow us, yes, fortunately
[48:31] Angela Walker: we had some contingencies in the budget that are going to support this process, so it doesn't, it's not going to go beyond what we have allocated in this journey, okay. And just a general comment
[48:44] Michael Beck: comment about that, it's a pairing of two fair amount of kids, myself, it's really, it is difficult, and I understand, you know, parents want as much information as they, I want as much information as I can get, but I will say this is that I appreciate the school committee taking on this challenge to be happy, but it's a big challenge, and in trying to shut the budget and everything else, you know, so it's also an opportunity for us all to come together in the community, you know, I mean, just every parent and Family in a different situation, like for my kids, you know, it's going to be my youngest who's going to be going through this. My other ones moving on, but he sees it as an adventure, you know, same friends, same friends, same teachers, gonna make some new friends along the way, and whatever they happy at the school that they're communicating that, you know, reinforcing that kind of thinking to make it easier for the kids so.
[49:41] Ben Sprague: Just to pass along a little encouragement on this. Yeah, it is definitely something we've
[49:47] Angela Walker: had obviously multiple meetings with discussions around, you know, the process and really keeping the students in mind as well as staff. You know, this is going to be a big change for everyone, and we need to make sure the supports are in place. So I appreciate that. Yeah, thank
[50:00] Ben Sprague: you. Other questions from the school committee? Yes. Yeah, I was just going to make a comment, you know,
[50:09] Speaker N (unidentified): in healthcare we have a number of emergency management plans and resiliency plans of what to do in this scenario. You never know how to react until it actually happens, though, right? So I think that might be a model to look to is developing a committee, a building facilities committee, that could tackle that, school committee members, parents, administrators. I think it's a great idea suggestion to partner with the city and perhaps the city has an example of that model of developing emergency management plans, facility plans, that can assess buildings, grade them as a committee member.
[50:55] Carolyn Fish: Folks suggested we're chuckling because we need much more. Yeah, we've been discussing that recently.
[51:05] Susan Faloon: I know you said that you could share the numbers as far as the steady decline in students, but just off the top of your head, is it, do you think it's enough to warrant at any point closing
[51:17] Angela Walker: any of the Bangor schools? I'd have to review it closer before making that determination, and I think there's a lot of variables and factors, as I think was already mentioned, the community, and I've learned this very quickly, and I've already known it, but it's been highlighted, you, the neighborhood schools are critically important, and that goes up to, you know, before they come to the high school at this point. So while I hear, you know, what Counselor Leonard is saying too about the, you know, east west separation, there's also a lot of pride and a lot of connection to those schools, so I really want to be able to, you know, facilitate a process and support a process that provides community input. You know, the neighborhood schools, you know, when we think about children getting to school and being able to ride their bike or walk, I think that's great. I think that's one of the best things about, you know, Maine and Bangor School Department particularly. So I think there's a lot of variables. And again, with the enrollment, even last year when we did have a decline, the question came up, well, you know, doesn't why do we need more staff if you have a decline and we're at that moment and the way that it reduces isn't you know we don't have a reduction of 35 fourth graders it 's a spattering so you know it's throughout various grade levels and like this past year we had a huge increase in sixth graders but there may be some you know decline in say second graders i'm not 100 certain on that but that's kind of what happens so it's over the longer time period where you see the decline so it doesn't always lend itself to you know numbers wise you might say oh well these this is you know X percentage less than what it's been if we should be able to have less buildings but then we would have to you know think of a long-term potential reconfiguration or things of
[53:16] Susan Faloon: that sort I know there was a time when the Mary Snow School was closed for a while and then it was reopened so I don't know kind of what that it's been a while but I don't
[53:27] Angela Walker: know that or you know what the drivers were yeah I think it was a decline in enrollment and then it came back up I don't know if anyone knows that I'm seeing a couple administrators regarding
[53:40] Susan Deane: the decline in enrollment are you seeing more children going to private schools or are young families moving out of the area can you describe where this decline is
[53:52] Angela Walker: we don't always know what happens sometimes it's people moving it seems to be a variety people moving sometimes it's homeschooling sometimes it's private schools I'd have to do a deeper analysis to see what the trends are with because we have enrollment of the neighborhood Catholic schools and private schools so we could look at that but it's if they withdraw we don't necessarily track where they go beyond the school department thank
[54:24] Ben Sprague: you madam chair you're welcome
[54:25] Speaker O (unidentified): I do not want to let this declining enrollment thing dangle out there because enrollment's actually up in the last year, plus five, plus five, and the trend in Maine is declining enrollment everywhere because Maine has the lowest birth rate in the country and the oldest population. So you're going to have fewer kids. It's nothing to do with the Bangor School Department. It's the trend brought more broad-based. We're also dealing with this trend out of COVID where some parents just decided during COVID that they were gonna homeschool or they were gonna go to private schools and they didn't necessarily come back. That's something we do talk about, how we can message and how we can reach those families to try to get them back. But those are family decisions that were made. There is unfortunately, even in this community, I think it's unfortunate, fortunate. There is a little bit of a move, a cultural move away from public education. It's nationwide. It's skepticism of institutions. This is not unique to Bangor. It's every school department's dealing with it. So I don't want there to be this sense that there's like a blaze over the Bangor School Department because of the declining enrollment, because actually enrollment's up. We are a 3,700 student school department. We are a big school department for the state of Maine, we have complex needs because of that, and as the superintendent said, I think everybody around the table would agree the neighborhood schools are part of the absolute fabric of the school department, and schools are the top reason why anybody is moving to Bangladesh for the schools and for the neighborhood school. So just speaking as one, and I think my colleagues would agree with me, that whatever happens long term, hopefully we can preserve the neighborhood school concept certainly at the pre-K to three schools. I do sense that things might be adjusted for the older kids for four or five and up. Those kids are going to be more resilient and there's a lot of benefits to bringing the students together earlier to have the middle school kids, it's have them all together. It's going to be complicated but I appreciate Counselor Beck's positivity about this. We're going to get through the meeting next week, we're going to hear people out and Listen to everybody and we're going to move on together and it's going to be okay. We're going to get through it. But I'm just getting that dangling comment about declining enrollment because it's actually not true in the last year and we're bucking a broader trend, okay.
[57:16] Carolyn Fish: So one
[57:20] Joseph Leonard: of the things that I also wanted to ask about and that was great, but thank you for bringing up the COVID information that I appreciate the talk about as well. The other thing I wanted to, just as a blanket statement for any people watching at home, there are some conversations I had with actually other school employees from other municipalities that asked me directly a question about why don't we, as a school system, cut supporting staff? And thank you so much for educating me on, there are state laws that actually prevent you from actually making those particular cuts. And so you guys have your hands tied in a lot of ways in terms of what you can actually work with in the budget. So I just very much appreciate that. I also had a question regarding turnover within the Bangor school system. I did talk to just one ex-employee, and so this is just their personal annotation, but they told me that one of the reasons why they left the school system in Bangor was because that turnover rate was particularly not good, but I did want to hear from the superintendent, is the turnover rate optimal? Is it, could it improve or, I mean, I guess.
[59:00] Angela Walker: It varies by department. So we have, you know, our administrators and teaching staff, there's many with 20, you know, 10, 20 years of experience. I think when you go into different roles such as custodial staff, food service staff, ed tech support, those have sometimes a greater turnover for a variety of reasons. So overall, I think from my perspective coming in I've been impressed with the minimal turnover and the longevity of staff, so I again I think it's department dependent, okay. I really appreciate that perspective. I was a concern of mine that I was not didn't feel comfortable
[59:47] Joseph Leonard: comfortable asking a question but I right now but I knew I had to. Oh please, yes, absolutely.
[59:59] Ben Sprague: Help me. Well just you and her go ahead, go please.
[1:00:04] Susan Faloon: To say that when it comes to like education support professionals, a lot of times research suggests because they don't have certification like a teacher and administrator where they are educated with a degree in that particular field, like an ed tech doesn't go through a program where they're educated to do that. There actually is one program at Eastern Community College now where they do that. They step into a role where they might not be adequately, you know, prepared or trained to take on that role, and so it's really on the job training, and so that turnover, and so this isn't a Bangor problem, it's systemic, it's all over the place. And so certainly Bangor, just like every other district, can be more intentional about making sure that we're really ensuring that we have good
[1:01:00] Angela Walker: onboarding and support. I could just respond to that and thank you for bringing that up, because one of our committees is an internal as well as our community of belonging external meetings or committee groups have a subcommittee around hr and around looking closely at the onboarding and hiring and retaining the high quality staff. Another thing that i think is helping to contribute to a reduction in that is that we have instituted additional training days throughout the school year, so our school calendar now has early release days. Prior to last year, we prior to this year, losing my years, but we didn't have maybe one full day for an opportunity for staff to be trained, and as we know, you know, society changes, things change, and we need to be as a school system providing ongoing training not only for educational technicians but for all of our staff, and that opportunity to hone your craft and your home your profession as an educator is critically important to being able to make sure that we can sustain as a school department and support the students as the needs evolve. Yeah.
[1:02:17] Tim Surratt: I just want to, i want to say that i appreciate council leonard bringing up our moral and our legal obligations to teach certain students that have specialized needs, and there's a connection here to this enrollment picture, and there's really value added here. These students that do have these specialized needs, i can't tell you how many times i've spoken to parents over the years that have students in special education or multilingual learners, and they've said that part of the reason why they moved to Bangor or they're staying in Bangor is because of the excellence of those services here in the city within Bangor School Department, our special education teachers on multilingual teachers. So that's part of, that's part of the story of what's mitigated our enrollment decline, and it's part of that story of the value-added of those students and those families.
[1:03:12] Joseph Leonard: A really quick one, I was hoping you could go over the SEER bus contract for us again really quick. I know you reviewed with the school committee, but I know gas prices are going to go up, and regardless of any change of the conduct, which like if you could just speak to those issues we talked about that previously. Well, we do have a contract with
[1:03:40] Angela Walker: SEER and it expires next year, right? 27? After next full year. So that contract I believe is approximately $4 million.
[1:03:52] Susan Hawes: You want to check that right now? It's 2.3 for this coming year but then
[1:03:58] Angela Walker: percent increase but yes. Yeah so it stays steady. It's a three-year contract is what we've had. So I haven't been here for those renegotiations that will occur at the end of, you know, within next school year because the contract expires at the end of June 20, I think it's June 27th, but we are collectively as a region coming together with the superintendents to read and look collectively at, you know, working as a team to ensure that we have a fair contract with SEER bus. They provide, you know, the necessary services and do a great job, the best they can, with, you know, the challenges that they're facing, and we're looking again to have a more collaborative effort in the region with the superintendents that contract with SEER currently.
[1:04:50] Joseph Leonard: okay thank you for that just a quick follow-up and members fray brought this up actually at one of your meetings is that we compare ourselves to Portland and other large schools in the state just to compare like anything that we do in Bangor but Member Sprague did bring up that unlike places like Portland which are surrounded by other communities that have a pretty healthy mill rate we are not as fortunate in terms of that and part of my concern is if we do work in tandem with other superintendents, but part of my worry is how much of those, of those collective bills are going to be disproportionately brought to Bangor more than other RSUs.
[1:05:47] Angela Walker: Yeah, let me clarify. It's not a collective contract. It's just a comparison of contracts so that we can ensure that we have the best possible situation with our contract. Okay. We're not joining in a collective, but that's a great point. Yeah, we're not doing that.
[1:06:05] Joseph Leonard: Okay, thank you. That's a thank you for that clarification. I'll just bring up one final thing I have, and this isn't so much of a question, it's just more so a comment that I have based on my own personal experience with the surrounding school systems. I just full disclosure, I've been doing some substitute teaching with Brewer and Hampden schools, and one of the things that I've noticed is, well, a few things. I'm just going to get straight to the point. We've had scores that we've been doing since 1992, measuring writing and math-related skills. In particular to writing, we've had early in the 90s and even into the late 2010s, on average, we've had a assessment reading level of a literacy of like, we'll just say 36, 37% on average throughout those years. COVID plummeted those numbers. Right after COVID, the first time that we did those tests, it was 29% for fourth grade, 26% for eighth grade, just a
[1:07:26] Angela Walker: giant. The NAEP assessment? I'm not sure which grade it was.
[1:07:29] Joseph Leonard: Our natural assessment of educational progress. Okay. Yeah, that's a sampling of across the country.
[1:07:37] Angela Walker: right i don't know if yeah kathy i don't know if you can speak to nate a little bit more so
[1:07:42] Speaker P (unidentified): nate takes a sampling of a variety of grade levels it's not every student that takes it and it is an average and it's based on national scores so like dowdy always gets chosen for some but common doesn't get children as much so what it is they're looking for certain populations of students that they want to draw from okay so when you read those scores it's just a representative sample it's not truly everybody in the state or everybody in the bangor school
[1:08:16] Joseph Leonard: department. I do appreciate that very much, thank you. The other thing I want to tie into that though was our laptop legacy program, which this ties into, and the reason why I'm bringing this all this up is a comment that was made, I think it's not only very true but very key, that technology is a driver of how the school is going to evolve, and there weren't really any, to my knowledge, and please correct me if I'm wrong, there was no, that the legacy of that program didn't really help assist students. With any increased scores or anything like that, it obviously was an administrative impact. I'm not trying to deny that there are positives to that program. I see it in the special education program where students that would have struggled otherwise, they now have that intellectual equity that's been provided to them. And the reason why I'm bringing all this up is I have a lot of concerns with artificial intelligence going into education right now. I see AI as a great tool for school administration, even teachers themselves. I do think AI can be a very valuable tool. I have seen students actually, I think the saddest one I ever saw was, there was a, there was a lesson about, a Ryan lesson, describe yourself basically. And a student was using artificial intelligence to help them complete that lesson to describe themselves. And I have a genuine fear that the more that we rely on technology, which is also something that is going to raise our costs for a budget if we do take on more AI programs or other technology-assisted programs. I have an idea that our writing and reading level are going to be negatively impacted from those implemented technologies. And I'm only just saying this from my own personal analysis is that I do have concerns about the future of education in general with the technology, and I really hope that in the next cycle of the school year, regardless of what the budgets are, regardless of how the technology is implemented into the school system, to be very cautious, because I do think that this is going to be, if not properly used and ethically used, it can not only directly harm the education of children, but it can also directly harm them as well, so I just want to point that out there as a budgetary item for potential future budgets, but also I think it would also in my personal opinion help with of enrollment to assure parents that we are not going to be doubling down on AI as part of the curriculum, to double down on what are the actual educational pieces that have made us one of the most successful schools, not just in the entire state, but also as a beacon for places that typically don't have great education programs, so that's all I really want to say on that point, and that's my final question as statement. Okay, I will say
[1:12:06] Angela Walker: Thank you. Well, I mean, I can definitely just kind of or just respond, I guess, to some of those are concerns that we're discussing across the school department, and we have guidance that teachers use, but certainly the technology piece does have an impact, and there's a balance because there is that concern that, you know, in order to prepare students for the world that we're living in, I mean, AI is a part of everyone's life, I think in most cases. So that's the tricky part, right? Balancing, making sure kids are prepared for the world that we live in and making sure that they develop the skills so that they can, you know, use proper judgment and determine if what they're really getting from AI is valid. Is it using those judgment and critical thinking skills, but when to use it and when not to. And those are some of the discussions we're having right now.
[1:13:00] Susan Hawes: The one thing I've always appreciated about the school department is that it's data driven. So anything that comes before us has been researched, looked at, researched, looked at, and it's really, it always comes with data to back it up. And that's important. So I saw an arm was that yours? Okay. A couple of quick questions we
[1:13:25] Susan Faloon: were talking about the Fairmont School. I have a son in the special ed program the Bangor school system, and so I think about he's not going to be as resilient as Counselor Beck's children. Transitions are very hard for those kids, and so I'm just curious how that transition is going for those children, and is that impacting enrollment and or attendance for those
[1:13:48] Angela Walker: children? There hasn't been any significant impact to attendance. Initially I think there might have been, there was a lot of illness, it was hard to say why people weren't there. Hasn't been an impact in attendance, and at this point we have supports as needed. It's the, there's things are still in limbo right now, so we're just offering support through our counseling and social work services as needed, and just paying close attention to the students throughout this as well. And that's part of the plan. So moving forward, we're going to have more details about how students will be supported with the plan.
[1:14:29] Susan Faloon: Have they just been integrated with other special ed classes?
[1:14:33] Angela Walker: Nothing's happened yet. OK.
[1:14:36] Susan Faloon: And then one more question. Obviously, there's a lot of pressure on us over the overall budget, and I know you're confident in your budget. You've done a lot of work, and I was really happy to hear that it's been reduced, but where would you see flexibility in that budget if need be?
[1:14:54] Angela Walker: At this point, with so much uncertainty within the school department right now, I really don't see anything that we can modify.
[1:15:12] Carolyn Fish: It'll be quick, I promise.
[1:15:14] Susan Hawes: Go ahead and get the look.
[1:15:18] Carolyn Fish: I just want to follow up on Ms. Sprague's comment. My grandchildren are at an age where they're involved in school and that's being in real estate for a long time and moving around as a military family. There was always a lot of private school across the country. Maine has always been lucky to continue to have art, music, sports, and a lot of quality, not just quality education,, but a lot of quality support within the school system that many states across the country have not seen. So as I move families in and we talk about our schools and they look, sometimes it remains that we still have football teams and soccer teams because it had been years, if not decades that their states or their towns had cut those long before. And so I think we're very fortunate to still have support from council, from even our communities that want to encourage to continue to have those. So luckily Maine is always behind national trends and that's a good one and other and there's also a lot of homeschooling of families so I think your enrollment is probably up if you really took not just the private schools but there's a lot of mom and dads at home that are homeschooling and that has expanded a bit to include the neighbors and my grandchildren have a lot of friends that they have made relationships with through extracurricular sports that those children were not in the school system so I think when you start to consider the fact that how many of these homeschool children there are and we've seen a decline but really when you take that fact that you might not think of but it's pretty you know a little here and a little there adds up to be a lot I think when you consider that our enrollment is probably you know pretty good because somewhere you have to make up for those that have left the school the public school system and yet we're seeing the decline but I don't Think it's not as significant as I expected, knowing how much private schooling is going on with homeschooling and private schools, so I just wanted to kind of keep it back on Mr. Briggs' comment about that, so good job. I don't know, okay.
[1:17:34] Tim Surratt: Yes, go ahead. I just want to, I want to take an opportunity to really applaud this city council. I've been following very closely the city council school committee negotiations that have gone on in other cities across the state, Augusta, Lewiston, Auburn, South Portland, and I what I really take from all of you is you understand how important the investment in kids is, and that the return on that investment is tremendous, and I just want to thank you for that. Thank you city.
[1:18:06] Susan Hawes: Manager, did you have anything you wanted to add? Nothing bad. I've had us our full agenda for the evening. That is the full agenda for you. Thank you so much. Absolutely, it's been my pleasure. Thank you all.