Bangor committee approves historic park designations, food sales code changes

[0:03] Joseph Leonard: we are live okay just let me know if counselor maller joins in the middle yes i'm promoting him right now oh okay perfect good evening everyone this is another really scheduled meeting of the business development committee i am councillor lundberg i'm the therapist committee other committee members are counselors fish carson maller and faloon we also have around the table counselors beck counselor walker counselor dean council chair hawes and community economic development director reeve and we have the very non unusual, very unusual person, a rather shortage tonight, but might be largely a large discussion. We'll see. Anyway, so the first agenda item is going to be a proposed code amendment for historic listings for [1:07] Carolyn Fish: Colette Sear. Yes, to present. Thank you. [1:10] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Yeah. So this is in reference to possibly designating three city parks for local designation, historic designation, Broadway Park, Chapin Park and Davenport Park. We finished up phase four of our architectural survey recently, which I think I briefed you all on, but that did recommend that these three parks have local designation because they are, as I mentioned in the memo, some of the oldest historic features in the city, and they were really integral to the development of the neighborhoods around them, and also Davenport Park contains a nationally registered monument there for the USS Main monument, and the main impact of designating these would be if there was a road project next to the park, just making sure that those, that these historic sites wouldn't be impacted. Every time a federally funded project comes to us, we have to sign off and say, you know, whether or not it will impact a historic site, so we would have to do something like that for potentially, there's not a lot of really historic items left in the parks structure wise that would really be impacted, and so the Historic Preservation Commission and the Parks and Rec Director were all on board with alienating these. So questions [2:35] Joseph Leonard: or comments? Yes, Counselor Fish. [2:38] Carolyn Fish: I saw that there were other, I think there are different properties that were deemed potentially essentially be within that historic district. One says there's a review of 76 properties and included a total of 107 properties on the Tree Streets and State Street study, and when I think of the Tree Streets especially over by Chapin Park, there's some older ones, but there's some that I think were part of that the renewal development, so how exactly, how would, what are we looking at for identifying those as historic buildings how would they be impacted from this [3:22] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): new district they wouldn't really be impacted by this you know if I think some of them were studied in our previous architectural surveys and some of those might have been recommended for their own designation but that would be a whole separate process I don't imagine like if you mean you know if they wanted to make a change to their property as far as like changing their roof or changing something like that they would not be impacted by this potentially you know in the very unlikely event that somebody wanted to, like, get rid of a bunch of houses and put up a huge development, you know, that might, that might impact that, but small changes to the houses. Thank you. Any [4:04] Joseph Leonard: other thoughts or questions? The only question I have was, if there's a routine maintenance or work that needs to be done around these historical sites, is there going to be any delay for that work because of this designation? [4:18] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): No, any routine maintenance is exempt from historic permitting. [4:24] Joseph Leonard: Yes, Councilor Garza. [4:25] Daniel Carson: This might be out of left field, but in the event of maintenance on roads or whatever, does that historic designation and when that's reported, like, is there anything addition that gets added to, like, a construction or a maintenance project in addition to what would be standards [4:44] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): because of that designation, and does that add a cost? I think if you're, if you're talking about just repaving a road, I don't think so. If they were talking about potentially widening a road, you know, that would obviously have bigger repercussions because it could impact the park, so yes, and larger projects, but routine maintenance, I don't think so. Yeah, so you're looking for this to move to the whole council? Yes, I will say we're looking at putting it for the formal public hearing at the June HBC meeting because we do have to notify all the abutters surrounding the parks, and we want to give people time to review that if they have questions, so we're going to workshop this and let people come and ask questions at next week's HBC meeting, so it might be a while before you actually see this at first readings. Okay, so [5:37] Joseph Leonard: so this one is just really for council feedback, and it's the same thing for the next item as well. [5:42] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Well, both, I do still need you to vote to move it along, but I was just saying there [5:48] Joseph Leonard: might be a delay for when you see it. Okay, well, if that's the case, if no one has any other questions or comments, that would entertain a motion. I [5:58] Carolyn Fish: Move if we submit this to council for to move along for the final language to be considered later on when it's adopted. Second. Moved and [6:13] Joseph Leonard: seconded. We do have to do a roll call vote, so I'll go around the table. First, I'll St. Wayne for last. Councilor Fish? Yes. Councilor Carson? Yes. Councilor Faloon? Yes. Councilor Malik? Yes. And I will be a yes. This will move on. Okay. Next up is the proposed code amendment for temporary sales ordinances. I'll take it away. [6:42] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Where. So this is really trying to give flexibility to what I would call seasonal sales, especially a food. Currently, our ordinance is pretty restrictive when it comes to seasonal sales. We only allow them for selling agricultural marine or forest products. And if it is food, we only allow that in the waterfront development district. And we have seen a need for people to do seasonal food truck, food truck or food stand sales outside of the waterfront area. And it would be a good opportunity for people who might be wanting to go to a full-time restaurant business to help them kind of incubate that and just give them more opportunities elsewhere in the city. And there were some other restrictions in the code that we thought might be somewhat burdensome unnecessarily. Like currently they have to have a pretty big setback from property lines, provide extra parking on top of the minimum parking for the various commercial zones, which most commercial zones have a pretty good minimum parking standards and a lot of parking already. And we also are proposing to allow this use in the neighborhood service district, which is a very small scale commercial district that's kind of integrated into our neighborhoods. We would only be limiting the number of these to two per lot in the neighborhood service district. And then we're also proposing to add a new restriction to prohibit drive-through service just to make it clear, because drive-through service is a pretty intensive use that does often need conditional approval from the planning board. So that's really the gist of it. We also are proposing to allow these on vacant lots, seemed reasonable, but I'm happy to take any questions. So any questions or [8:33] Joseph Leonard: comments? I have none. Night as well. I thought it was pretty clear. If none, I would entertain [8:43] Carolyn Fish: a motion. I make a motion that we move temporary sales of food and merchandise to allow increased flexibility for this use. Move this to council next week. Moved and seconded. Well to do another [8:55] Joseph Leonard: Roll call vote. Councillor Fish, yes. Councillor Carson, yes. Councillor Platoon, yes. Councillor Malik. [9:02] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Yes, that'll be a yes. This will move on. I did just want to note with advertising requirements this [9:09] Joseph Leonard: will have to be for the next council cycle. Sure, thank you. Thank you. Okay, next on the list we have a economic development division check-in regarding banner corporations. Our economic development [9:24] Carolyn Fish: development officers here to get up. [9:30] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): So I was coming with good news. So we have some great news. I am going to highlight the areas in banner, but the memo was pretty comprehensive. And the fact that banner is a nonprofit entity, it's it's of which I operate as its executive manager. Its purpose for existence was to be able to easily make decisions around economic development and representing airport properties, working in collaboration with the airport and the surrounding areas. In the last few years that I've been operating in the executive manager role, I've been predominantly focused on the innovation center. So managing the Innovation Center, recruiting tenants for the Innovation Center, making sure that it's maintained the way it needs to, really being present. So I'm there once a week. And I work from the Innovation Center to be able to be present, to be able to have face time with our businesses to ensure that they are doing well. And if we need to support them, we can or point them in the right direction. As far as funds being used, we have utilized Banner funds to be able to provide some low-cost maintenance to the building. I had talked about reform composites, which is a spin-off of University of Maine, and them being our most recent tenant. And it was important to be able to welcome them into a building that looked good, a building that had good bones. And so we did a paint job on the building. We also had used financing for signage and other small things just to make sure that it was presentable. And we were able to attract them in the building they're currently in there now. We tried to congregate the board several times to no avail, we didn't have a quorum. And I just think it's important to be able to sit and discuss its purpose to decide beyond the management of the Banker Innovation Center, if we do believe that this is an entity that should continue to exist, I think it's a great opportunity to talk about other opportunities that may be more relevant in today's day. And so I just want to present Banero to you again, to have a discussion, to answer any questions if I could, and to be able to really have a board meeting and talk through exactly what I just said. We see the governance there, so we would congregate a board that included the chair of the council, of Hawes, the chair of the government operations committee, the chair of the community and economic development committee, the chair of the finance committee, Jose Saavedra, the airport director, our city manager is a non-voting member as well as Ann Krieg, who is a voting member. So it's a very interesting entity because there's still council management, but it doesn't obviously have to go through the same process in [12:53] Joseph Leonard: terms of making decisions. And before I open it up for questions and comments, this has been a topic of discussion for a number of years now. I remember when I first joined the council, counselor Sprague, this was a button item for him, and this kind of sat in the corner collecting dust for a long period of time, and this has been a long time coming, discussing this to figure out what is its future, what do we want to do with van air, is it, is it still useful to us, can we use it for something more in the future, or I mean, I don't believe this, but it hasn't run its course. So I just want to say to counselors, like, please ask any questions that you have regarding this, because we do need to have very critical discussions regarding this topic. So and I just want to say thank you so much for doing a lot of work on this. And I know and you've been helping her behind the scenes as well. And so I just want to thank staff immensely for bringing this topic forward. With that said, any questions or comments from other councillors? Yes, councillors [14:04] Carolyn Fish: but I do have a comment about this. Yes, in the past I sat on that board and it was a very well-run functioning board, and it was really more about what you said, it was about development and what did we want and what did we not want, how did we want to get there, and then there was some changes in the, I believe Steve was getting ready to retire, and we had membership had started dropping off, but after that retirement I'm not sure, have any of you had notices of any board meetings or anything? So I don't think that it got put out. I don't think the word was put out [14:51] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Yeah, it was like probably a couple of months after I started, so I started two years ago, and it was, I mean, I'm looking at faces, it was a different board, a different council. We did put that, we did try, I think, twice to schedule a meeting, and we even had a meeting scheduled, but we didn't have a quorum. But I do think, like I said, I mean, we have so many great things happening in the city. To have this entity, I don't believe that it should not exist, but having a meeting of the mind to say what could we do with this, I think is fantastic. I will say, not to discount, our innovation center is phenomenal. I talk about it a lot. It is an incubator, things that are coming out, the businesses that are in there, and the innovation that is coming out of that building is tremendous. And I often have meetings there, and people will say, oh my god, I never knew all of this was happening, it's fantastic. So I just think we need to capitalize on that. What direction do we want to go with that building, and also how our fee, I think the, an important conversation, especially with Jose being present, is how do we collaborate with the airport to ensure that we're helping the airport, which in turn increase economic development moment for the entire city. So I do, I think the meeting will be worthwhile, and I think we'll get into some new places. Councilwoman, your counselor back. Thank you. I'm just gonna [16:24] Susan Faloon: say it would be really interesting to me anyway to maybe set up a tour. We scheduled that too, right [16:33] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Right. And then, yeah, we can do, yeah. [16:37] Susan Faloon: For some of us newbies. Yeah, absolutely. And if you, [16:40] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): and if you ever want to stop by, I'm always there on a Wednesday, but yeah, so we can definitely schedule, a tour and you will be pleasantly surprised because there's a lot of great things happening. [16:51] Joseph Leonard: So I think for the committee chairs, I would, very much,, encourage you to go to that. You know, even myself. Yeah. I was going to say, yeah, I saw that the chair of the government operations committee is on there, which is me, and I'm definitely in favor of, you know, seeing meetings start back up, because, you know, this is, this is an opportunity, and anything I can do to help, happy to do. Council fish, I think [17:18] Carolyn Fish: This is definitely a value for us to pursue and to continue pick up the conversation and look at other ideas. Quite a while ago, dating myself now, but I had a small company representing a lot of small BNB sporting camps and recreational opportunities throughout Maine. At the time we had a sister relationship with Basel, Switzerland. I don't know if anybody remembers that, where we hosted them here for business opportunities, for things they wanted to partner, perhaps partner with us, and likewise a delegation of us went to Basel. As a result of that, I think I represented about 20 different outdoor recreation companies that went to a world trade show there, and I was able to store a lot of the material, and as part of the free trade zone, so we didn't get taxed on that. I had to get certain stamps, but and we did that for a couple of years, and then and somehow I think some of the international airports and the international trade airport, we lost some of the airplanes and some of the transportation. So that opportunity sizzled out, but it's a new era and the airport's growing and I think we should really pick that idea back up [18:36] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): and anything else. Thank you so much for sharing that, because that has been a mystery to us because of the foreign trade zone. Zone so it so Ban Air is an operator of the foreign trade zone, meaning that there were plans or activities actually happened where items that were imported were stored in the [18:52] Carolyn Fish: in the innovation center and same vice versa. I had boxes and boxes from things from all these other companies that we stored there before they got transported to Switzerland. [19:03] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Oh that is so, oh my goodness, okay, so everybody was pretty excited. Yeah, and the thing is that when I was reactivating the foreign trade zone, the Banner is still an operator. And I said, I'm gonna find out about this story because I'm not gonna, it didn't click to me, but now it's clicking. And so it keeps its status. So the Banker Innovation Center is still a foreign trade zone operator. So that kind of activity that you experienced, we can do that again. Yeah. [19:35] Wayne Mallar: Councilor Meller. Yes, I have a couple of questions. Questions, but one would be what man air properties do we have? I'd like to see a list of them. We also asked some time ago about the income coming in from the leases of any of the banner properties and the expenses related to them, so we could see if we were efficiently charging enough for the leases to cover the costs, and we haven't seen that yet. How many properties do you think are involved? [20:08] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Or how many leases with banner? So banner has the banker innovation center and it has two lots on banner road and then it has one parcel of land on outer hammond. The properties that you're speaking of, councillor maller, is the economic development fund properties. No, I think we [20:30] Wayne Mallar: We asked for both of those, the economic fund properties and the Banner properties. Now I'm curious, you haven't had a board of directors for how long? [20:40] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): I don't know how long before me. I know since I started two years ago, there hasn't been a board of directors. [20:45] Wayne Mallar: How do you, I'm curious is how you expend funds without authorization of a board? [20:53] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): So those approvals go to Ann. Ann and I discussed that we haven't spent a lot of money. I mean we continued with the maintenance of the building because we had to, so things like plumbing and we just had a sewage problem last week and so and just you know lawn mowing and things like that and then like i said the expenditure was very low painting the building giving it a fresh coat of paint what else do we do the signage of the building and it's just been maintenance yeah and those buying like a throw rug for the conference room just so that it could be a space where people can meet Well [21:34] Wayne Mallar: It was still nice to be see what's who's authorizing all these expenditures. I don't see anything in the in what i looked at in the banner information given and comments made tonight that the board is the one that should be functioning and when i have of people functioning outside the board, I have to ask the question of why. [22:00] Joseph Leonard: And to respond to Councilor Morelle, I think that is at the end of the day, not necessarily a failure on staff. I think it's a failure on council of the previous years because staff has been trying to reach out to counselors to organize that and we've never been able to form a quorum. So I think a majority of the fault has to lie on the actual councilor members at the end of the day. But that's something that we can rectify, so and I would hope that everyone, this body, would want to do so. Did you have any other questions, Counselor Mallory? Nope, that's it. Okay, Counselor. Back, just a note for the City Manager, as we go through our council procedures, maybe something in the training to remind the chairs that they're a member of this board, so we know. [22:50] Carolyn Fish: Council Dean, well, I see that I am a member of the board, so that's exciting, and I am available on Wednesdays, and if you're going to be out there, I would like to say that I would love to tour. Absolutely, I'd like to come on a Wednesday, that's my best day for daytime. [23:04] Susan Faloon: Tours, if you want to set something up, and they'll be happy to come together, it might be easier for. [23:10] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): You, yeah, that would be wonderful. I mean, the businesses in there, they're happy to give you an intimate tour of their business and let you know what they're, what's happening in there. Any other thoughts or questions? I have a date for a Wednesday tour, so this is. [23:39] Joseph Leonard: Sort of an out-of-left-field question, and it's okay, you don't have an answer to this, but I had been thinking about this and I talked to a few individuals about the idea of, since we're also talking about the idea of a airport commission, just putting that whole conversation aside right now, does BAN AIR in its capacity, could that function similarly to a commission? And if that's the case, I feel like that would eliminate a massive step, and if that's a project that we wanted to go down, we already have the tool readily available to us. Is that. [24:21] Carolyn Fish: Mechanism that is applicable to Banner? Well, Banner, the history of Banner, it was created so that you could have a separate arm, you know, that's not government, you know, managing those properties, so because there's some things and some grants and things like that cities can get, and then there's some things that, you know, this kind of like a development corporation can get, so it was. [24:49] Joseph Leonard: By design separated from the city, okay, but in terms of, because it functions right now as. [24:58] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): As it is, but I think it's definitely worth a discussion, right, and we probably would have to go to legal to determine, you know, what is a commission versus what is a non-profit, and this is the purpose of the commission, and could we potentially put. [25:15] Joseph Leonard: It under Van Aire? Yeah if we could have at least some answers regarding like if that if Van Aire in its capacity could function as a commission I mean I would like to know whether it could or could not because if it can't then we know the direction that we have to go with regarding the commission conversation if it can or there's a gray area that it might be able to then that also completely shifts the conversation as well if we wanted to go in that direction so that 's why i bring it up and i apologize it's a little bit of out of left field question, but I thought since it's coming up [25:56] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): it's important to ask that particular question. I think it's a fantastic idea, and Jose is already on the board, so it's a commission with the airport director being on the board, so we [26:08] Joseph Leonard: can definitely discuss it. You don't, I don't think you need action on this, just a discussion, but is there anything else that staff wanted to bring up or give guidance or questions to Council, or any other counselors want to chime in that [26:30] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): will move forward with scheduling a meeting [26:33] Joseph Leonard: Oh, but I guess to make it abundantly clear, as council, do we want, do we want overwhelmingly go forward with staff to move forward with the implementing Banner to have more meetings that 's on the go around? Okay. Oh, yes, comes to do to wait until after budget season. [Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Yeah, absolutely.] We can find us here, but the notion is yes, but after budget season. Okay, thank you so much. And I'm assuming you're sticking around for Bangor Central [27:12] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Kitchen. I am sticking around for Bangor Central Kitchen. So I thought that it was very important to start this conversation off with the why. Oftentimes, right, in our work, we tend to be very transactional, and it's important, right? We wanna, especially with financing, and we wanna make sure where our numbers are and if it's affordable, but I do want to start off and launch with why, the Bangor Central Kitchen. And so I think it's important for us to think about the Bangor Central Kitchen. Yes, we must operate it as a business,, but it is an economic development infrastructure. Just like you would build a parking lot to ensure that people can get to work and be able to work a full-time job, just like a bus, adding a bus route to the city, just like adding a parking bus, what was my other example? Roads, right? All these things are infrastructure that ensures that a city can operate and it's successful. And so I would ask that you think of it in both regards, in both lenses. When you think of it as infrastructure for the city, it's an investment in short and long-term growth. So short-term growth, right? We're creating these, this place where we can have entrepreneurs start to learn and understand their craft, test their product, and ultimately become successful. So we see that immediate impact and perhaps create jobs while they're doing that in our kitchen. But that long-term growth, right? We always come back to tax revenue and that's a long-term opportunity here. It's a great opportunity to be able to see these businesses who are more likely to be successful in the market, ultimately become brick and mortar businesses and increase our tax revenue long-term. Building entrepreneurs the right way, right? We see, and I think we all see, and not only in this city, but all across the country, that entrepreneurship is definitely something that's trending and people wanna build their own businesses, but the majority of entrepreneurs and small businesses fail because they don't know how to operate their businesses. They don't have the educational fortitude to operate it successfully and understand its flaws and to be able to recover from things like COVID and a pandemic or things that, you know, that they didn't necessarily expect. So to be able to take our entrepreneurs and place our hands on them so that they can, so that we can see their growth and they can tread and enter the market when they need to is really honorable and it's smart and innovative for our city and then the other piece there's many pieces but these are the three that I'd like to drill down the city of Bangor we talk about business attraction we talk about attracting people to our city I can tell you that when I was entertaining the move to this city the fact that this project was in was a plan attracted me because it said to me Bangor is an innovative place. Bangor is willing to take some risks. Bangor understands the importance of investing in their people and their businesses. Where I came from, I won't say it right now, but I was so happy because I was actually a small business needing a central kitchen at one time. So I always been in economic development, but I did have a business and I needed that. And in that city that I lived in, there was one restaurant who opened its doors to me and allowed me to make my products, and that really helped my business. So can you imagine multiplying that across several businesses in our region, not only our city, to be able to do the same thing? So I just wanted to start with the heart of the work today. We're here to give you good solid information. We had various meetings where we had pending information, we needed to do more work, we needed to give you more definitive financial and operational details. We have that today. We wanted to show that we could be, we talked about being a little more conservative fiscally and operationally. So what I'm really proud to say is that the last time that we met, that we had a project with its total cost of $5.5 million. And we talked about the increased revenue of the cold storage banking, but that was separate. And so we were able to negotiate with our construction manager and our designer to say, we're going to build a building for you that includes cold storage off in phase one because we need that extra revenue and be more conservative operationally. So, Councilor Mallar, I remember you stating and referencing why do we have to start so big, and I think that there was a lot of truth to that because we don't know the business, we don't know the project. So we are minimizing this project from an 18,000 square foot building to half of that so we can understand it and we can see it and we can manage it. [Joseph Leonard: it.] The other, the last part of why we're here today is to continue moving the forward the project forward. As you see in the RFP, as you see in the memo, I referenced the RFP, the next step to this would be to release an operator RFP. But before we get to that, I have been working, I had referenced our operations and financial consultant quite a bit. I've been working with Joshua Gunn of Joshua Gunn Consulting for the last three months. And he has been able to get some really great information. I'd like to talk a little bit about his background. Joshua has consulted on and helped launch multiple successful incubator projects, including distillery labs in Peoria, Illinois, a 45,000 square foot public private innovation hub anchored in food innovation with integrated entrepreneurship and tech commercialization, where he advised on governance, sustainability, and operator role clarity to support a transition to a self-sustaining model with reduced municipal involvement. And then Provident 1898 in Durham, North Carolina, an entrepreneurial incubator and coworking community in the historic Mutual Life Building, where he designed the membership and service model, structured governance and partnerships, and led long-term sustainability and growth planning, and continues to serve as a strategic partner. So needless to say, Joshua has a lot of experience in this area of incubation, especially food incubation. And I'd like to introduce Joshua, who is coming to us from North Carolina, Durham, and present to us his report. Thank you, Joshua. It has been fantastic to work with you. [34:42] Unidentified speaker (Guest/Presenter): Thank you, Bigita. Good evening. Can y'all hear me? All right. Counselors, it's very great to see you. And thanks again, Bigita, for that introduction. I have a report I'd like to share with you all. But I'd like to start with asking your permission to sort of frame our conversation with a video from your chamber of commerce there in Bangor. I understand that there's some regulations about me launching videos externally. So I think I need permission of the committee to begin with that video if you're okay with it. Let me know and I'll open up with that if anyone's, if there's any unreadiness, happy to just describe the video. But I think it'd be more impactful for you to see it. [35:28] Joseph Leonard: Hey, I'm completely fine with it. So I'm council land, the committee chair. So you can go ahead and do that. Okay, our assistant city manager is gonna set you up. [35:38] Unidentified speaker (Guest/Presenter): Okay, wonderful, thank you. I will, let's see, looks like I can share my screen already. All right, perfect. Okay, do you all see my screen? Not yet, not yet. What about now? [35:59] Joseph Leonard: Yes. [36:01] Unidentified speaker (Video Narrator): All right, wonderful, let's try this. Korean Dad developed from one family's long-held dream into a Bangor area restaurant built around sharing authentic Korean food with the community. But their story goes beyond serving meals. The kitchen is serving other culinary entrepreneurs, letting them test concepts, build confidence, and get a real taste of running a restaurant before launching their own independent food ventures. That mix of personal vision, cultural flavor, and entrepreneurial mentoring explains why Korean Dad stands out in Bangor's business community. And while the Maine Business School is happy to present the Innovation and Entrepreneurship Award to Korean Dad, Chris [36:52] Unidentified speaker (Video Interviewee): Lee, the owner of Korean Dad, came to Maine a couple decades ago to attend the University of Maine up in Presque Isle. Five years ago, he opened Korean Dad here at the old Stonehouse Restaurant, and people loved it. They went crazy for it. [37:10] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Chris did more than just open up Korean Dad. He extended an arm into the community to allow for other entrepreneurs that were in his boat to be able to have opportunity. [37:22] Unidentified speaker (Video Interviewee): You can use a lot of shared supplies that are already here, shared equipment, and build up that customer base so that when you are ready to move on and open, you already have people that know you, that love the food, that are going to immediately stop patronizing U.S. states. [37:40] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Billy and Mal, they're doing great at Korean Dad, and Dreamer is actually a graduate of Korean Dad, and a restaurant now in Bangor, and their story is an interesting one. [37:52] Unidentified speaker (Video Interviewee): It was the three of us having lunch, and this random guy comes up and introduces himself, and it turns out to be Korean Dad. And I don't know what got into me. I asked him, like, hey, how do you get into this? That was it. We exchanged emails, did a few conversations back and forth, and that's how we got into it. Yeah, a couple months later, we were part of Korean Dad. That was pretty cool. We definitely made a big dent in the culinary scene. We're different, our food is different, our message is different. People think about Portland as having such a foodie scene, but they don't really think of Bangor in that same way. We have our own ethnic Christians from all over the world, right here in Bangor. [38:37] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): The economic development team has a tremendous body of work, but a big, important piece of that work is supporting our local businesses and grooming our entrepreneurs from start to success. Chris, Zachary, and Dad proves that the model works for them. that. [38:59] Unidentified speaker (Guest/Presenter): Okay. We're going to be able to hear the audio. I should have checked before I started, hoping you were. I just thought that was a great way to frame our discussion today about Bangor Central Kitchen, right? It is a literal proof of concept of both the demand for spaces like this in Bangor and the results. I mean, you've got a small business owner who essentially turns his restaurant into a kitchen incubator for a few folks in the community, and now one of them is operating a business. Right? So that's economic development, that's job creation, that is in my opinion a really great proof of concept for what we'll discuss today. So thank you for indulging that, sharing, Bigita. Do you, are you going to run the slides on the PowerPoint? Would you like, also like me to just share my screen and run it over? Here? Yeah, so you can do it. No. [39:47] Carolyn Fish: Are we doing it? Yeah, we're already just, you are, is it different or the same? Oh, it's the same, it's the same. [39:54] Unidentified speaker (Guest/Presenter): It's fine. Yeah. Okay. All right. Fantastic. Let me just share my screen again for y'all. Let's see. Okay. We're all seeing the PowerPoint there, right? Yes. All right. Thanks again. So once again, I'm Joshua Gunn. I've had the privilege and pleasure of consulting on the Bangor Central Kitchen Project as the operation and financial consultant to help you all in the community assess the feasibility of this project. So we'll be talking about Bangor Central Kitchen, which is really an infrastructure project, an economic development infrastructure asset for your community. Quick framing for what it is, it's 5.5 million dollar construction budget to build a kitchen incubator in a 9,000 square foot facility. You've already secured 1.5 million dollars in grants, so there's already some funding in place for this project today, and that helps a lot in getting this off the ground. This will support an estimated 150 jobs in Bangor. So let's talk about the opportunity. The feasibility analysis or the Periscope market research study that you did in October of 2023 identified over 1,700 potential users within a 90-minute radius. 65% of them expressed strong interest in Bangor Central Kitchen. They said, yeah, if you build this thing, I think I'd want to use it. 120 plus miles is the distance to the nearest comparable facility. Right? So there's nothing in the immediate region like this to service that demand, and there are zero fully, full-time shared use kitchen incubators in eastern Maine. So a big gap in the market, and that study demonstrates quite a big demand case for building something like this in your community. Consumer packaged goods producers equated for a big piece of that, which was 914 respondents. Home-based food, people making food products out of their home was 614, and mobile vendors equated for 172. So a nice diverse mix of business types showing interest in this project as well. So that's what we think really frames the opportunity. Let's just refresh what it is that we're building. This is at 50 Cleveland Street. You all probably know this as the former Dow Air Force Base Officers Club. This is a demo, right? We're going to tear down the existing facility, not refurbish or revitalize. We're going to tear it down and build a brand new infrastructure component there. 9,000 square foot facility, which Begita updated you on as a pivot from the original plans. I think that this was designed to be fiscally responsible, right, around how we approach this new project. So 9,000 square foot, which is the largest shared-use kitchen incubator in eastern Maine by a long shot. It would include commercial kitchen space, fully equipped, licensed, shared-use production, right? If you remember that Korean dad video, the people that were using his space referenced how great it was to be able to use that shared-use facility that's already up and running, already licensed. So this is that at a commercial kitchen space scale. So really a game changer for aspiring food entrepreneurs. doors. Cold banking storage is the key revenue component of this facility. This would be commercial grade cold chain storage that could equate for up to $500,000 a year in annual revenue at stabilization of the facility. This is a critical component of the plan and the structure. Also, the building will include programming space. So for workshops, training, and business development, I can tell you that successful kitchen incubators not only generate significant amount of their revenue by offering programming and education. It's also a stability tool to help your food entrepreneurs benefit from the space. A quick glimpse of who you're going to serve. You got your consumer-backaged good producers and those home-based food entrepreneurs. That's caterers, food trucks, personal chefs, nutrition programs, think meal prep, culinary training and workforce development. This is also going to help you train people to work in restaurants, to work in your culinary food production scene. So this is a workforce development education career pathways opportunity as well, and this will also serve your regional producers and larger distributors through that cold banking storage operation that is attached to the facility. So what's the business case, right? So we took a look at all of the financials and the demand, and we helped you understand what the business case is, that is for this project. I want to again emphasize this is an economic infrastructure project, right? So it's important when we think about these types of incubators to separate it from thinking about the business model itself and think about it in terms of any other economic infrastructure that you might build in the city of Bangor, right? Think about it like roads, water systems, broadband. These are critical infrastructure components that help support your community. This facility at its size could accommodate roughly 50 businesses full-time at stabilization, generating an estimated 150 jobs through direct and indirect economic impact. $13 million is the annual regional economic activity that this project is projected to contribute to Bangor. This is a significant investment. So if you think about it as infrastructure, it's very hard to think about another infrastructure investment at this level of debt service that will provide $13 million in economic activity back to the city of Bangor. The annual bond payment is estimated at about $318,000. That takes into account that you've already secured 1.5 million dollars in additional grants, which cuts down your bond to about to 4 million dollars. For that investment, Bangor gets 50 businesses, 150 jobs, and 13 million in regional economic activity. If you've seen the full report that we created for you, 'll notice that we referenced a national comparable model in Warren, Rhode Island, called Hope in Maine. Hope in Maine is about twice the size of our projected project in Bangor, but has been extremely successful, and I think demonstrates the ability of projects like this to make a significant economic impact in a small New England town. Warren is even much smaller than Bangor, and they're having significant success. There is a 39% seven-year survival rate for these types of food business incubators, compared to only 8% for other similar national startup models. So food incubators have a high success rate. Hope in Maine is in the top 10% of culinary incubators nationally. So in spite of its being in a relatively small community, continues to outperform in terms of economic impact for that region and success of their food entrepreneurs. Also point out that the nearest competitor for you guys in your region is Fort Food Lab, which I think most of you all are familiar with. I sat in on it, or I listened to an additional committee meeting on YouTube, and I know you all talked about Fort Food Lab a bit. They're about 120 plus miles south of you, so there's nothing else in the region that compares to this. Took a look at your five-year revenue stream projections. We're looking at kitchen rental, cold banking storage, cold storage fees, and classes and events as your four categories, right? And as you see, $1.2 million is the total estimated revenue at stabilization. This project is projected to stabilize around year five at that number. Coal banking storage is a significant portion of the revenue here. We're estimating about 42% of that revenue to come from CVS. This project will be positive in net operating income by year three, and by year four be positive in net cash flow. So if you're thinking about the debt service model, the city of Bangor is essentially only subsidizing that debt server, paying for that debt service for the first three years, because by year four this project is projected to be revenue positive in taking care of that debt service fee. Here's a 10-year financial projection, again similar themes here. You'll see the peak cumulative deficit around year three, right, as you're growing, and then into stabilization in year four. Year six, you're cumulatively positive, right, so positive across that six-year period. And by year 10, you continue to have a stable revenue structure, taking into account increases in fees at about 2.5% for your members, paying that annual debt service and being revenue positive for the project. I wanted to be up front with you all about some of the sensitivity around what it's going to require for all of those projections to be true. And as you might guess, the primary sensitivity of a project like this is utilization, right? And so I've laid out some projections for you in terms of what revenue will look like in what level you need to get to in terms of utilization to no longer need a city subsidy to operate this thing. So at about 60% utilization, your total revenues come out to $936,000. So you see there's a deficit there. At 70%, that subsidy is narrowing. You approach break even around 80%. So with about 40 members using the space full time, you approach break even, and about 90%, you're at a positive escalation. At 100% stabilization, the project is completely self-sustaining over time. This takes into account a 2.5% annual rate escalation, which is standard. So if you think about any of the memberships that you might have each year, there's a moderate increase to account for increases in costs for the facility, but Bangor Central Kitchen and achieves positive net cash flow at just 70% utilization. So you only need about 35 members to reach positive net cash flow, but at full utilization, very financially viable. Talk a little bit about the capital structure. As you know, you guys have secured a one and a half million dollars in grants, which is fantastic. So that reduces our bond to $4 million to launch, to build this thing. Annual debt service, again, $318,690 per year. That's $4 million at 5% for 20 years semi-annual payments this is saving the city of Bangor 120 I'm sorry 119 509 dollars a year by securing that one and a half million dollars worth of grants so just want to flag that those grants significantly reduce the cost burden for the city over 10 years there are other grants out there to build this thing and we thought it was important to flag that right so yes your bond could be four million dollars and you could build this thing but there are other sources of funds that if you proceed with this project in the non-profit City partnership operator model that we're recommending that you could go after there's a USDA grants that are available there is the HHS Community economic development that the non-profit operator could go after and those range between a hundred thousand and eight hundred thousand dollars of additional resources that could even reduce that bond amount by a little bit more so it's already really strong with the 1.5 million Dollars secured, and that also helps your application for these grants. These grant providers love to see projects that already have funding, right? So, as you know, easier to get funding when you can demonstrate that others have supported. So there is a strong grant landscape and funding pipeline for this project as well. In the full report that you received from us, we presented you with multiple options for operating models. The one that we have recommended is a municipality plus nonprofit operator. The advantages of this for the city of Bangor is you still own and control the asset, that infrastructure piece. The nonprofit, though, is in charge of daily operations. Right. So the city is able to get out of the way of the operating of this infrastructure piece and let that nonprofit operator do the blocking and tackling. It's grant eligible with a nonprofit operator. There are certain grants that the city is not eligible to apply for that a nonprofit arm or operator would help you access additional funding, which is that Hope in Maine model in Rhode Island that I referenced. This insulates the city from daily liability because that operator will be running the facility for you. It does require a really strong management agreement, so I want to flag that up front, that it's important that as you build your RFP as well as your ultimate operator agreement that you have really strong language to ensure that this operator is operating this asset responsibly. We've built much of that into a draft RFP already for you. So this is the operating model that we're recommending. There's, There's two others. The municipality can certainly fully control it and operate it by yourself, which most municipalities aren't interested in because there's a high administrative burden and liability as well as lack of access to grants there. And then there's a tri-party model, which is pretty complex and just really makes it difficult to operate. So we believe that model two is the most seamless way for you to proceed with this project. With the nonprofit operating model in mind, do want to make sure that we're clear about the fact that each of those non-profit operators is going to ask for a fee to operate the facility. This fee is taken off of the gross revenue for the project. We're recommending eight percent as the fee. Ranges nationwide go from anywhere between six percent and twelve percent, with most operating model suggesting an eight to ten percent model. So what you see here on the slide is a estimate of what your fee, what the operating fee would be at each revenue level of our projections, right? So we included 8% and 10% for you just so you could see, because there is a reality that in the RFP process, an operator might want to negotiate for their fee. And so we wanted you to understand what that would look like at each level. At stabilization, the full fee would range somewhere between ninety six thousand dollars and a hundred and twenty thousand dollars per year for that operating partner. This is baked into all of the financial projections that you have seen. So this is not an additional fee for the city of Bangor. This is just off the top of the revenue that Bangor Central Kitchen would generate off the gross revenue, and you're still revenue positive even after the fee at year four. At stabilization, it's absorbed within that fee and the net cash flow is still $244,000 to the positive. So all of the projections and assumptions that you've seen from us in the full report account for an 8% fee. This slide just flags what it would look like for you if there were in fact a 10% fee on the higher end. We've developed an RFP draft that would be ready at your city staff's discretion and discretion of council of course to go to legal and procurement for further review just but wanted to give you some heads up for what's in there. So we built the introduction, the facility description, full breakdown of the governance model and capital structure, a procurement schedule, your full operator scope is in there, proposal requirements, evaluation criteria, everything that you would typically see in a Municipality grade RFP is in the draft, and we have a recommended timeline here as well. I know that there is a plan to demo the building in November, and so we think best practice is to have a operator in place before you go forward with that demo. And so this timeline lays out here what it might look like to get an operator in place before you demo that old building. And with that, your next steps are pretty simple. You gotta, you need to release the operator RFP to get somebody in place to operate it. Affirm that this is in fact the model that you'd like to go with, which is that municipality and nonprofit governance model. And identify your subsidy mechanism. You know, if you're thinking about where that startup support will come from, you guys have internal discussions to talk about what the funding stack looks like there. But overall, this is infrastructure, right? We took a look at all of the nuts and bolts of this, and the case for it seems really strong from our perspective as an economic development infrastructure for your city. You get 50 businesses, 150 jobs, $13 million of activity at a bond payment of $318,000. The businesses that go through these models have a 39% seven-year survival rate. That is much higher than a business that starts without an incubator, particularly in the food space. If any of you all are entrepreneurs or have worked in the food and beverage industry in particular, it's a very difficult one to survive in. And this infrastructure empowers your small businesses to sustain over time. And that's why you get a higher survival rate there. No road, water main, or broadband extension in Greater Bangor would generate this level of return per dollar of annual debt service. So from our perspective, you've made a really strong case to proceed with that. I will pass it back to you, Bagita, for any additional comments, or I am happy to answer any questions your [57:49] Carolyn Fish: comments. Yes, Council Push, just so I'm, I can understand the graphs and we went through, thank you very much for all this information, it's very helpful. And with the expenses and the cash flow, net cash flow after debt service, is that considering, I think the way you explained it, that is considering the 8% management fees for someone to manage it, that's the net after that, or is this the net, the 10-year financial projection? Is that not incorporated in that net where you have a year three, 516,000 in the red? You know, am I making myself clear what the question is? [58:36] Unidentified speaker (Guest/Presenter): Yes. Yeah, very clear. So each of the projections already bake in that 8% fee. [58:42] Carolyn Fish: Okay. So we're still considering that the cost of the project would be $5 million and something. And then it would, around the 10th year, we would have a projected net income of our net financial projection of around 200,000. That's correct. Just off the top, I mean, I would love to see this, but I just think for a $5 million investment to end up with a net of 200,000 in 10 years, my immediate response is it's just a no brainer that 's not a good financial decision. I get everything else about the incubate. I went to the chamber, I saw that presentation. I think it's great. I do think we need something to help our foodies, but I don't know, you know, I also think we have a responsibility to our taxpayers and to bond that kind of money that's gonna take 10 years to have a net of 200 for a $5 million investment. Just, you know, maybe I just need to get my head in this a little more, but that's been my point, you know my sticking point right out of the gate yeah if I can if I can just respond really [1:00:01] Unidentified speaker (Guest/Presenter): briefly so that is a net cash flow that $244,000 would be your net cash flow for that year right so your net cash flow positive by year four in the project so your estimated revenue at year 10 I'm sorry at year five is $1.2 million with a net cash flow of $244,000 without the $2.5% escalation fee, which you, again, the operator and the city would have to decide if you wanted to embed that. And what that is, each year, the cost to use the facility for your members goes up by two and a half percent. That's sort of a best practice to do that. Your net cashflow actually after year five is $311,000. So that's just year five, right? So cumulative net cashflow is higher than that with your revenues also outpacing the debt service really quickly, Right. So if you look at if you're at 100% of your members by year five, that's $1.2 million of total revenue for the project just that year. Does that help? [1:01:06] Carolyn Fish: Yes, it does. Thank you. And again, I'm concerned about us meeting even the minimum membership outlined in this. But thank you for this report. It definitely gives us a lot more nuts and bolts that we had asked for before for tangible data. data and this is very helpful and it definitely will give us a lot more me, especially to look at this and weigh out all the pros and cons, thank you very much for this is extremely [1:01:32] Joseph Leonard: Helpful, good work, thank you. It's a pleasure, thank you, thank you, okay, I have a line [1:01:39] Daniel Carson: of questioning potentially, to be true, this report is, the numbers in here are as of March of this year? 2026? Yes. Okay, thank you. So my questions are in this report. It shows the annual regional economic activity generated from this project could be 13 million plus, but I don't necessarily see a full breakdown or justification of that in this report. So in here is what the assumption applied for inflation is 3% for non-personnel categories. As you and everybody is aware right now, we are experiencing supply side difficulties in global energy markets due to international turmoil. And if that were to resolve at this exact second. It would be 200 days before we even saw the first sign of relief in the other direction. So I'm a little concerned about the 3% assumption for an inflation rate. And I'm just wondering if we have some thoughts about potentially looking at that in a different way and I am wondering then because of the volatility I think it's really difficult to quantify construction costs at this particular time because energy costs are a huge part of that so I think those are sort of the at least that's probably the line of my questioning I'm a little less concerned I've worked in banking for many years I've seen a lot of business models that start with losses for many, years. But so I just have those concerns. And I do also, I wanna echo Councilor Fish's concern, but this may actually be more of a question for us, for you around strategy, I guess all of us around strategy, but to know that if we're gonna go this direction, that we really can ensure that building is gonna be full. You know, like 60%, you know, we want 100%. So can we, you know, is that? [1:04:03] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Yeah, I mean, we had talked about that at the beginning of Joshua's presentation around the feasibility study of there being upwards of 1,700 interested folks, 1,700 restaurateurs, foodies, aspiring entrepreneurs, and then what was the number? 65% of those expressed interest. I do think that we have to do our due diligence in recruiting those individuals and ensuring that we have the right operator who has the experience in doing so. And so we had talked about who that operator could possibly be. And we will not be surprised if there's operators that are outside of the state who respond to this RFP. I also wanted you to elaborate on the 13 million, Joshua, around because when you look at it as a business, it's direct, right? Direct revenue at year four, I believe, but the 13 million and the fact that this can be an economic multiplier in various areas. Can you [1:05:06] Unidentified speaker (Guest/Presenter): talk more about that? Yeah, absolutely. So that 13 million is based on a lot of the information that was in your feasibility study, actually, right? Thinking about the market and the impact of something like this. So when you calculate economic activity, right, you're thinking about the people who are going to be employed because of this, the people who will be employed in a supply chain, the people who will be shopping and eating at these restaurants, the visitors that will come to your space. So there's a lot here. I can actually share with y'all the formula that people typically use to calculate if that will be helpful. The $13 million of annual impact, I can give you the formula there. I can share with you, Begita, if you'd like to get it to the committee. I don't have it in front of me right now. It's fairly, I don't know, it's fairly simple, but also there's a lot that goes into it because you're calculating for additional sales tax, additional payroll tax, right? There's a lot that goes into thinking about if you open a new restaurant today, that restaurant may only generate, let's say half a million dollars in revenue, right? For round numbers. There's a lot of economic activity that happens around that restaurant. So that's the basis for this. And I think it's critical to frame it that way when we're thinking about these types of projects, because they are not in and of themselves, these types of infrastructure projects are not necessarily designed to generate a ton of revenue for themselves, right? In the best case scenario, they are sustainable, right? They're not a burden to the taxpayer in terms of having to pay that debt service. But the economic benefit that happens outside of that space, with new restaurants opening in Bangor, new distribution hubs opening in Bangor, I think is where you, we often recommend that you focus when you think about a project like this. Because as a pure business case, I get why it can be challenging to think, okay, we spent 5 million, we make this back. But as a civic body, as a municipality, the impact for your taxpayers and your residents is significant when these businesses open and thrive. [1:07:06] Joseph Leonard: Mr. Carson, do you have any more questions at the moment? [1:07:09] Daniel Carson: No, I appreciate the explanation and I would love to see the formula because I'm a giant nerd for that. Okay. And that would be fun for me. [1:07:19] Joseph Leonard: Director, did you have some words for us? [1:07:21] Carolyn Fish: Yeah, I just wanted to say that, you know, this is a big policy question. It's not necessarily that the city is embarking on a business venture. It's more to say the city is making a choice whether or not you want to invest in a certain sector of the economy, just like you invest in, we just talked about the budget for the cultural commission, you invest in culture as part of your economic development, you invest in the bus system as part of that, you know, economy. So that you're, you know, these are choices that you make, and so, you know, the goal ultimately isn't necessarily for the city to, you know, to make a significant amount of money, it's more how many years you're willing to invest in this to break even, you know, because you're making that investment just like you do in other parts of your budget. And also, just as a reminder, the economic development fund, which is a, an enterprise fund, is what pays the [1:08:29] Joseph Leonard: bond, it's not part of your capital plan. And just to piggyback off of that, it's also important to remember that maintaining our economic dollars within our locality is always an important thing, regardless of any enterprise that we engage with. And so we're, I understand your concerns, Counselor Fishing, Counselor Carson. One of the things that I am thinking of in my mind is, when people go out to eat for any type of food enterprise, or even grocery store, where does that dollar go at the end of the day? Does it go out of the state? Does it stay within the state? Does it stay within Bangor? Because the more dollars that we can keep here in Bangor, and I don't know if that's something, Mr. Gunn, if you can elaborate on more, but that's actually my primary concern, which is the local velocity of Bangor's dollar. Does that increase with a facility like this? Like, how much can we be certain that we actually keep a lot of our own food culture economy to remain here, as opposed to going out to a chain that is where their headquarters are based out of Delaware? Yeah, no, I think [1:09:46] Unidentified speaker (Guest/Presenter): that's that is a massive case for these types of municipal investments right you're you're you're not only retaining those dollars that you mentioned counselor you're also retaining the individuals who operate these businesses right if you are and that there's a lot of financial implications to that right if i'm a person in a city like bangor and i've got this food business idea but the only place where i feel like i can get the resources that i need is in portland or in boston that 's a lot leaving the community in terms of economic or financial implications, but talent and treasure and culture leaving the community. And so when we think about these infrastructure investments, think about it like you would a park, right? Putting a park in your city is one of the things that's gonna make someone want to stay in that neighborhood and experience it. But adding to the fact that an infrastructure investment like this creates a business, also there's some financial return direct to the city. There's some cultural return direct to the city. There's a visitor economy. And we know the data tells us that small local restaurants pay their employees better. They're more invested in community, they stay much longer, they're more active and vocal than a chain, right? You can get your McDonald's, which we all love McDonald's, they're going to be around for forever, but a small local business homegrown in your community is going to be much more invested in what happens in Bangor. And so there's plenty of data around that as well, this, the difference between a chain and a local restaurant and their impact on economy. Happy to also share that with, to get to you guys to help in your decision. [1:11:22] Joseph Leonard: I would actually very much appreciate that, Mr. Gunn. [1:11:25] Unidentified speaker (Guest/Presenter): I'm gonna make a note to do that for y'all. [1:11:29] Joseph Leonard: Councilor Faloon, you had a question? I do. [1:11:32] Susan Faloon: I don't know exactly how to phrase it, but okay. So I'm glad that you clarified that the money comes from the enterprise fund to pay the bond. Can you elaborate a little bit more? And maybe you have at some point, but I just want to wrap my brain around it a little bit more like we go out and borrow money or we use money initially from that enterprise fund and [1:12:00] Carolyn Fish: then it gets paid back to that bond out of the economic development fund okay so the bond [1:12:05] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): itself is a loan yeah okay it's a loan that we get and then the loan payments [1:12:09] Susan Faloon: we pay out of the economic development fund okay so does any money go back into that enterprise fund at some point or that just gets paid out but that doesn't get replenished back [1:12:20] Carolyn Fish: into the enterprise fund it depends on how we structure the management of a facility which we're still working out yeah I mean how that how the management gets funded out of the economic development fund and then remember we have all of those [1:12:37] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): properties in the enterprise fund right so we have all of those properties that come bring in revenue and so from what I understand there the bond was approved for this central kitchen because there was some other bond that we had previous to this that we finished out and so Deb Laurie our former city manager said okay this would be the great opportunity to get these the kitchen bonded because I believe that the kitchen in the last eight years a whole struggle around it was we don't have enough money to support it and to build it [1:13:16] Carolyn Fish: yes thank you for bringing up the enterprise fund that helps and the 13 million overall impact on our community is helpful i 'm still having a hard time but that's okay yeah i really want this and i think the other thing that i'd like to kind of have an idea of what would be the value of the structure the bricks and mortar if everything went defunct what would we end up with a value of the structure itself as so we wouldn't end up really losing the whole you know five million let's say if we couldn't get any funding we couldn't find any grants what would the building itself be worth just so we know like a minimum of what our potential worst case scenario [1:13:58] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Recovery would be that's a fantastic question and I will get you that information. However, I did have a discussion with Sheridan, our construction manager, to say that I got some really wise information from Carol Epstein, who said to me, make sure that you're able to build a building that can be used for another purpose. Because this is something new, and she thought it was great as well, but it's still a risk. Can you build it and use it for something else? And as we all know, we need warehouse space. So I did. And that was one of the caveats with the construction manager. Please build this building and they said we're going to do exactly that especially with making it smaller they're able to trying to use construction terminology but they're able to build a building and they said we're not just going to build a bunch of walls and box space but it can be used for something else and then they explained it so I thought that was some pretty [1:14:54] Carolyn Fish: Wise information from Carol that was my other thought during this was that if we could design it I know it's already designed but I wondered how easy it might to transition what we're building into something you know that we might discover is a demand that could be useful in the future because now we have this structure we 've you know built so you guys are already [1:15:19] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Thinking that 's all yeah we were thinking that and we get so many calls for warehouse industrial space and we can definitely do that and it's in the right the right area to be able to do that very good thank you 're welcome yes council back this one I want to make [1:15:38] Joseph Leonard: Sure I'm going to say this right so when we say 50 businesses launched and 150 jobs supported that's on a rolling basis that's how many people will be in that building at one time or that over [1:15:46] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): The a certain time period that's on a rolling basis so Joshua I believe we said that 50 would be ideal for the first year but you were you were conservative with the first year numbers [1:15:57] Unidentified speaker (Guest/Presenter): Is at 35 correct yeah so yeah we started on a ramp up period but 50 is like what we consider stable operations so year over year 50 or so businesses in there based on the amount of space and equipment is a stable operation for that space and you're gonna have your tenants right [1:16:15] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): Who are there who pay a regular fee because they're always there, they're operating their business out of there, but then you're gonna have tenants who need some hourly space, and you're, you're gonna have tenants who only need cold storage, or refrigeration or prep space. So it's a whole conglomerate of all these different folks who want to have some part of the food business. And again, why underscore, it's so important that we get an operator who understands this. [1:16:44] Joseph Leonard: Well, I'll just admit it, I completely underestimated what this was. Now that I see this, now I've got the fire for it. I've got the excitement for it and thank you for the video too because that really kind of helped me picture this, you know, we're, we have a lot of food culture here and, you know, being able to incubate new businesses in that regard, I mean, this is part of what Bangor is and, you know, we get entrenched in these conversations with residents and among ourselves and everything, but when I went to the, well, you were there too, the leadership in the high North. And it was exciting to hear from people who were visiting for Bangor, a lot of them for the first time, and talk about great things that happened in Bangor, you know, and like things like the foreign transfer and the opportunities and things. Like this is another opportunity to, you know, there's lots of reasons why Bangor was on the map, but here's another one that puts us on the map. And, you know, I understand the concerns about, you know, how much money does it make? Because that's a real concern, but you might see that number, 13 million dollars a year, and you know, one of the things that, you know, talking to people about how do we make more opportunities happen in Bangor, how we make more jobs happen in Bangor, you know, you know, like we mentioned the report, dollar for dollar, you know, 150 jobs for a, for a 318 000 bond payment, you know, that alone feels like a steal when we're really trying hard to expand our workforce and make more opportunities happen, so I'm Excited to see how the numbers work out, there's more questions to be asked for sure, and I appreciate everyone working on that issue, but just what I'm seeing here, I just, I'm appreciating the energy and the fire here, this is something to be, this is gonna be something if we can do this and it makes sense, everybody, I'm, you know, Again, I'm not in the committee, but from what I'm seeing and hearing, I'm in favor. I'm excited about this now, where before it was just numbers and asking questions. We poured it to life. No, it's got some life in it, so thank you for that. [1:18:53] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): I mean, prior to this, we spoke about the Banker Innovation Center, very successful incubator in manufacturing that is still here and churning out some amazing things for the economy with regard to manufacturing, and that's a proof of concept. [1:19:09] Susan Faloon: Sorry I interrupted you. Oh no, I was just here. This is a question or just a comment, but like so we bring in 150 more jobs, but then we've got to tackle the housing problem to be able to support or house all of those people if we're bringing them in from outside. So just which I know you already know. [1:19:33] Daniel Carson: Councillor Carson? Yes, thank you. I just wanted to point it here and I do still have those questions about the numbers because I just really want to know. I have, like I said, I've looked at business models where this is the plan. In fact, I can cite one after if anybody's interested that had a 50 year loss plan. But the thing that I really appreciate seeing here besides all of the economic activity that could be generated is the survival rate of businesses that participate in incubators. And I think anybody who's ever done work, I've done financial work with restaurants and food businesses, and I think I mean nearly everyone that I ever watched open when I was in banking I also watched close. And so this incubator like really bringing that seven year survival rate to 39 and I know that doesn't sound like Massive, but that's massive compared to an eight percent national rate. So something else, I mean, that I see that benefit is not just the economic but really being able to have that relationship with our businesses through an incubator and really ensure that those that are taking off really have a higher propensity to survive. And I see that benefit playing out in multiple ways when we think about vacant buildings or we can crop storefronts, you know, like this is a great way to also help ensure that By the time somebody moves graduates from an incubator and moves to the storefront that they're very likely to stay open and then we're not dealing with that weight and actually to that [1:21:10] Joseph Leonard: Point, Counselor Carson, I mean, that eight percent success rate is a very real number. For anyone that was able to visit Kashi when it first opened, that was a Hibijin sushi restaurant a number of years ago. I loved it. I thought it was a fantastic place, but unfortunately it barely survived a year. And one of the things that just because of my own familial knowledge regarding restaurants is there is so much sweat and tears that go into restaurants, and the high failure rate really does come from a multitude of different issues. Usually what they end up being is administrative, if I'm being honest, but there's also the correlation of learning the new business and learning the materials that go into and learning the processes of that. And so when you combine that with the administrative hurdles that a lot of new restauranters get into it gets very overwhelming and part of me thinks would kashi have succeeded if there was an incubator program potentially maybe not but that the point being though is that 's a very real number going from eight percent to 39 success and the longer we have restaurants maintain the area not only is that better for us economically but having restaurants that stick around for a longer period time immensely adds to the culture of the city which should be well I can only do for myself, that's my primary concern why I want restaurants to stick around longer. It's just it's easier to market them at the end the day, if I'm just being completely frank on it. Anyway, were there any other thoughts or questions that staff or counselors wanted to bring up? Council Carson, the next time we talk about central kitchen project, we should have snacks. They don't want to make a motion on [1:23:21] Carolyn Fish: that. I know you have a whole other committee after this, so yeah, we're just going to continue. It is going to continue working with Sheridan and we'll keep you updated on things going. Roger [1:23:38] Joseph Leonard: Well, thank you so much, and Mr. Gunn, thank you so much for all your diligent work as well. [1:23:43] Unidentified speaker (Guest/Presenter): Yes, members of council, thank you, thank you, thank you. Thanks Bangor team, it [1:23:47] Unidentified speaker (City Staff/Planning): was great working with you on this. Thanks so much. Excellent. Hey, have a great night. Thank you everyone. [1:23:52] Joseph Leonard: Thank you. Unless there's anything I'm missing or any other updates, it is 7 26 of pm and this will be the end of this economic development committee. Stay tuned, we now have We have government operations next, and may the 4th be with you everybody.