Bangor council hears railroad encampment cleared, warming center concerns

[0:06] Susan Hawes: Good evening, welcome to the city council workshop. It's Monday, December 22nd. We are in the capital chambers. It is 5 15. We have three items on the agenda this evening. That's all right. I saw another person that I could have snared if you didn't show. Sure, we have the discussion on the railroads and updates, and city manager Leo is going to take that one, and I don't know if she has other people coming to join or not. We'll see what [0:43] Carollynn Lear: everyone has for questions. Okay, so I wanted to give you an update on what's happened over the course of the last several days, late last week, over the weekend, and then today at the railroad road encampment. So last Thursday, there was a healthy contingency of public health and BCAT staff at the encampment providing written notification that the railroad was coming to clear the property on Monday. And so there was sort of an eminent need to start making plans to move. Staff sort of went through walking up and down the road and talking to individuals and offering them assistance in the process. Residents were offered things like city provided cell phones, tents that were provided by a local nonprofit to replace their tents to the extent they were damaged, storage bins and long-term storage options, pet boarding and transportation, both local to warming shelters, as well as more distant transportation that folks have. You know networks that they wanted to get to. Staff also offered physical assistance in moving and information about places that the folks then living at the encampment could go. Given the weather on Friday, there was very little activity at the encampment, unsurprisingly, but over the weekend there was a large amount of voluntary movement of residents as folks started to take plans for their next location. So today when public health staff arrived first thing, there were less than a half dozen folks remaining staying there. At that time, similar to the Thursday prior, city staff were there to help and offer assistance. I know that Jen Gunnerman was there, was sort of, you know, confirming with the railroad road staff, you know, these are the safe things you need to do to make sure that people aren't in tents before you start cleaning, that sort of thing. And as of this afternoon, city staff have confirmed that all individuals have moved from the railroad property and that cleanup is well underway. If Anyone visited that space there were, you know, large roll-up dumpsters there's, there's equipment, there's people sort of actively cleaning up on the railroad portion of that property. As we discussed at the last meeting, there's also city property there. That property is, again, as we already discussed, but I'll reiterate, is entirely landlocked. It's shaped like a triangle and on two sides it's bordered by private property whose owners planners consider the comings and goings of those train track residents to be trespassing and then on the third side the land is bordered by a very tall retaining wall so the only way for individuals to come and go from that city portion of the property is to either trespass or to traverse sort of a very small steep and incredibly unsafe embankment to access the property so in addition to talking to Folks on the railroad's property over the last several days encouraging them to make plans for relocation city staff have also been talking to the folks who were residing on the city's portion of that property letting them know that similarly if they have other places they should start making plans to move because very quickly there are going to be challenges with accessing the property just to be clear we did not interpret your guidance from the last meeting to mean that we should move people From city property and we did not do that however it appears that those individuals residing on the city's portion of the property have voluntarily moved as of this evening there are not any residents currently occupying tents in that space so tomorrow city staff are going to undertake a cleanup of the city's property particularly ahead of the coming snow so that the items that are there remaining don't you know get snowed in and remain over the winter and then going forward due to those safety Concerns of that landlocked property will certainly be monitoring that space closely for folks who might come back to reside there because I think going forward it's just going to be an unsafe place if they cannot come and go without either trespassing or traversing that embankment that is my update what folks have for questions okay just before we do that I need to let people know who are here oh I'm sorry did I [5:58] Carolyn Fish: Jump in and not let you I could just put a cough drop I'm sorry okay in attendance tonight we have [6:06] Susan Hawes: Have Council Carson, Councillor Deane, Councillor Leonard, Councillor Walker, Councillor Faloon, we have Councillor Beck, Councillor Mallar, and Councillor Fish, and I'm Sue Haas. So we have a full house now. Questions, do [6:28] Daniel Carson: we have any sense of, so the people who voluntarily move? Do we have any sense of the places that they have gone? Like, do we know how many people went to the well? When that opened, how many people are using the warming shelters? [6:41] Carollynn Lear: We have anecdotal information just based on our city staff doing sort of their work in that space. But I suspect, although Jen Gunderman can correct me, that as we sort of start working with case managers who are working regularly with the clients, we'll get a better sense of where people are. I'm [7:08] Jen Gunderman: Jen Mennerman, director of Vancouver Public Health and Community Services. Yes, so right now there's two things that sort of are evolving. One is that Jen Lawler, the HUD 7 coordinator, has done the by name list, and she's been doing that list over the past few weeks with PAF, the home team, with other case managers. So they are continuing to try and understand where people are going. That list is forever fluid. Sometimes it's hard to reach people even when they were in that space. And so they are going to meet again after the holidays and kind of check in and see where they've been able to locate people and still connect them with the resources that they need, such as the vouchers. We did hear today that from the people that I connected with some were going to the well and some were going even for the first time, but they had never been there before. And so again, just making those resources. We will, I'll be reaching out to Jen Lawler to get the warming center numbers over these past next couple of days and just to see if there's been any increases in those numbers. [8:26] Susan Faloon: Okay, thank you. New notes. So this afternoon I went down to the UU church and met with some of the folks there. I had set this up a little while ago because I wasn't able to attend the Tuesday meetings, so they gave me a bunch of information. So I made some notes because I didn't want to forget any of it. There were four people who showed up, three of them had relocated yesterday from the railroad encampment, and they were obviously visibly frustrated and upset. In fact, one of them was in tears because they've been separated From their members of their community and they are now living over by the Hope House, and according to them, they didn't get any assistance with transportation or moving their stuff. Now maybe that was the timing of their move, but they were forced to leave some belongings behind, so I'm assuming those belongings are lost. They have lost touch with some of the people who were there, which is upsetting to them, including one 60-year-old woman who has cancer, who has no phone, and they are extremely worried about her. Where they're staying now, they have no ability to charge their phones if they do have a phone. So that's upsetting to them because they're not able to communicate with their caseworkers. It seems like they've been getting some, I don't know, inconsistent or confusing information because, and I, and I think some of that was based on the meeting that we had where we talked about delaying the clearing of the encampment. And so they were told that it had been delayed, but in fact, I think that was contingent on what the railroad said, but that's not the message they received. They thought they had a little bit of wiggle room and then were kind of forced to scramble. So there's some frustration there with that. And then also, and I know that it's a different topic about the warming center issue, but I was also told by some of these folks today that they've gone to these overnight warming centers and have been turned away either because they got there like 10 minutes late because they had to work, but then others were let in after, and also, and again this is just the information that was relayed to me, that sometimes certain people are turned away while other people are let in, that as a kind of a who you know sort of situation, so it doesn't seem like there's kind of a widespread consistency to like who is allowed to go into the warming centers. So that, I think, is kind of the gist of the information that, was conveyed to me as of today, but obviously a big level of frustration, and they don't know where everybody has gone. They're scattered, and so, you know, they're not with their people, which is obviously frustrating, and there's a lot of concern about, it's really cold tonight, it's going to be really cold the next few nights, so there's a lot of concern about that as well. Anyway, sorry, I know that was kind of long, but that's [12:10] Michael Beck: that's okay so the bulldozing that happened today that was on the railroad side not our side correct and that was railroad employees that developed this awesome we had nothing to do with that 's correct okay. I echoing what I just heard about the frustrations with the transportation and something that I had heard as well, I guess there's various mutual aid groups were trying to get transportation for folks because they weren't able to look and again, it might be just time of day. But everyone's gone. There's nobody left there. [12:47] Carollynn Lear: Yeah, I mean, that's my understanding from the folks who've most recently been down there as recently as within the last hour, okay, and then all the all everyone who left there was [12:56] Michael Beck: volunteering like they no one was told by Bangor PD just they had to leave, no I mean [13:02] Carollynn Lear: Bangor PD very much was messaging the railroad is coming you need to start making plans, I want to be really transparent and clear about that because it was I perceive and I think everyone else perceives as well it was not in folks best interest to wait until the moment when the railroad got there to then decide to pack up their things and go, sure my question just told me that [13:26] Michael Beck: the liabilities are on the railroad this that was their property and this is what you know they wanted to do with that as far as the belongings go, I mean there were I guess just to double check because I got some complaints too about some tents where people actually marked on there hey I'm coming back please don't get rid of my stuff and they come back at 9 a.m. it's gone, that stuff's gone like there's nothing we can do to help anybody who has little complaints [13:55] Carollynn Lear: Well I wouldn't say there's nothing we can do to help those people, if folks are missing items that we can help that they need for survival they should you know reach out through BCAT, you know I think the property left on the private railroad's place is probably is probably gone or shortly will be as of now. Okay I mean I get but as far as things are [14:23] Michael Beck: irreplaceable like any kind of personal effects and things there's nothing we can do there. And I guess the question I get pushed a lot is again this is a question I guess I should have asked back in November 24th. Did we call the railroad or did they call us to start this? [14:41] Carollynn Lear: When you say start this? When [14:44] Michael Beck: And then did the decision just to close the encampment, was that, did the railroad call out and say, hey, we have concerns, we want you to close it? Or did we start the concerns first and say, hey, railroad, you need to help us do this? [14:57] Carollynn Lear: I don't, we have not encouraged the railroad, but we have on an ongoing basis had regular conversations with the railroad since probably September. I mean, I think- [15:11] Jen Gunderman: So I think when, you know, and again, referring like the 19 to 19 strategies, one of them is really clear about highlighting spaces that are really dangerous. And so I think we highlighted right from the beginning that this was an active railroad track and that public safety wasn't able to get in there. And there was dangers to people who are residing there and people who are working in that space. So I think that's really what sparked some of the conversation. [15:35] Michael Beck: Sure. I guess my question is still though, did it spark from the railroad to us and they called us or did we start the conversation here and then invited them after we started [15:45] Carollynn Lear: it? I guess that's what I'm looking for. The conversations with the railroad started far prior to us talking to you because the homeless outreach coordinator and the police were regularly actively in that space checking on people. And to even do that, they reached out to the railroad just to let them know we're going on to your property we're going to start engaging with people who are homeless living in that space as we would with any private property owner before we sort of went on their property to check on people okay i mean so and [16:21] Michael Beck: i just want to make sure this is a this is what gets pushed is that you know someone we're using the railroad as a scapegoat for something we saw need to be done and it sounds like it was railroad had approached it they had become they started if they but at some point they became non-responsive or cooperative for how we worded on the 24th and then suddenly it just became this we're not going to move or budge at all when we tried to change it we talked to the 12th we wanted to push it on the railroad had said no the 19th we're showing up rain or shine and took it out of our hands. That sound about right? [17:03] Carollynn Lear: I think the railroad became more interested and engaged in that space over time initially. And then, as you all know, Maine Department of Environmental Protection became interested in this space. We started having public conversations about the perceived safety or lack thereof of folks living near the railroad there. And I think it sort of just heightened even their awareness of what the potential issues were over time. They were less interested in engaging earlier in the summer. Thank you. [17:42] Susan Deane: Other questions, comments? Also, Dean, my confusion on this whole issue is obviously there was trespassing going on in the better weather. Did we hear from anyone in the plaza about the trespassing, or was it not until we brought this up in a public meeting? That, because I, my feeling would have been that would have been our first clue that this area was not going to be something that would be long term. And I feel badly for them because they're now in a situation where [18:18] Carollynn Lear: they look like the bad guy and we should have known about this one. So there was an email over the summer, I'm not about that, went to all of us about the encampment that was growing behind Panopska Plaza. I don't recall whether it was from a business owner or someone, some other member of public, but the first instance that there was any conversation about trespassing was recent. [18:48] Susan Deane: It's multifaceted. It's not sure, it's not just about the people, it's not just about the unhoused, not just about the railroad or the private property. So many things are intermingled that it seems like we waited a bit long to figure out what to do. Yeah, and I don't want that to happen [19:05] Carollynn Lear: again. That may be a fair criticism, Council. [19:15] Carolyn Fish: Fish, I wrote down several times over the weekend and got a call on Saturday afternoon and went down from a distance because I don't, I didn't know if we had public health people on down there, what was going on. And I know I don't have the expertise, but I went down to just kind of observe and they were unloading a dumpster, I assume was the railroad unloading, and the man that was driving the truck was aggressively approached by what I assume were a couple of campers and I just kind of sat back to Observe they were very aggressive and he seemed very calm and he seemed very you know he kept just trying to kind of back off it looked like I wasn't close enough but he was just trying to explain he was doing his job and I was a little nervous for a while how it was getting intense but they did kind of de-escalate and I went about their business. And there was another car there that looked like they were trying to get a camper to get in the car with them. And they were even trying to load their car with, I assume, their belongings. And they refused to get in the car, did not either feel comfortable or didn't want to. And that was a frustrating argument as well, because the people offering the ride were trying very much to offer a ride. Maybe they didn't want to go where they were offering. But again the campers ended up rejecting the ride and walked off so both situations de-escalated and I wasn't there in the conversation but those are two observations I made on Saturday afternoon. [21:08] Wayne Mallar: Councilor you made a comment the last meeting that we were posting all city property did. [21:17] Carollynn Lear: I say that we're posting all city property oh yes I don't know that. [21:22] Wayne Mallar: Is confused by it that's where I want a clarification on what property is being. [21:26] Carollynn Lear: closed to confess that if i said that we were posting all property i don't think that 's true it is definitely posted all around the world just that one problem and there are other properties within the city that have them posted but i do not i would not say that every single property that's why there are places where there have been prior instances of camping [21:51] Susan Hawes: Where that's what I thought but I just want to clarify thank you I mean I think the conversation when that was sent we had been talking about the parks that had been posted Valley Avenue Kandusking Avenue around other places had already been posted and it might have sounded like it was all well so I knew she was referring to right but most of that I just wanted to clarify most of it with the parks the encampments and I. [22:30] Jen Gunderman: Just offer clarification about what happened this morning in personal belongings. So I went down there at about 7 30 this morning before anybody arrived, and I wanted to go and check on the tents before railroad was there. And so I focused on between the two bridges, and there were about a couple of tents that still had people there, and I just reminded them, hey, we do have railroad coming, what do you need, do you need totes? So what we provided between the city staff is we provided four totes and people could take those totes with them. They didn't have to leave them for storage. So we made sure starting on Thursday that we had a lot of totes available in that space, and we were also providing the cell phones. So this morning people responded and they said, hey, we just need about a half an hour to get things packed up. So definitely allowed for that time. There were a couple of, there was at least one person who came down and said, hey, I'm just coming down to get my stuff. I worked with the railroad person to accompany that person over to their space, grab their stuff, packed it in the back of BCAT's car to go to the well. I, between those two railroad, between those two bridges, I personally did not see any notification of signs that said, I'll be back for this property or please don't touch this. I was specifically looking for anything during that time before the railroad got down there. And then eventually Sergeant Brock came there. He had the same approach. Let's just make sure everyone has time to get their stuff. Let's make sure they're well informed. Let's make sure people are safe. Let's make sure that tents are truly empty and someone isn't, you know, in the corner. We just can't see them. So we all sort of took that approach and not an enforcement approach, but how can we help you come read from the space right now? Thank you for doing that. Yeah, I just want to make sure that was clear that you understood what happened this morning that's [24:39] Daniel Carson: a question and then councilman I just wanted to clarify that the conversation about posting actually was a suggestion I think counselor Dean made when we were discussing that there may be other spaces across the city where we might not want people to go and that it would be helpful if they were posted I think was what that discussion was yeah [25:08] Susan Deane: that's okay I get just [25:10] Michael Beck: the question going forward for what's the city policy going forward about potential other [25:19] Carollynn Lear: Encampments, yeah, I would, I think that is open for discussion among this. I think we've really taken, and other folks have lived this longer than I have, taken the position that we generally didn't move people in encampments without sort of council involvement in that conversation. [25:46] Angela Walker: I've heard a little bit about the city and like I know a lot of things have happened before I became counselor and I'm curious, is the, is there something that states that Bangor is a no camping city, is that a thing? And I'm really only asking because I don't know, and so I'm asking if anyone knows if that's a thing. I'm also on board with what counselor Dean had was smoking was speaking about, like when did we know this, how did this, obviously way before me, but as far as like some of this research and stuff that I've done, it's been like 10 years before now, and looking back at all these encampments and like I've talked to a lot of people and like Brewer doesn't do it, Hamden doesn't do it, this people don't be, this town doesn't do it, this said where did we, where did that shift go? If we do have a no camping in our city, where did it go, and why weren't we able to, I don't know, about stop it, but how, I'm confused I guess, and so I'm just voicing how I feel, I'm a little confused just being new on the council and trying to keep up with videos and from past and trying to look everything up and trying to educate myself as much as i can. My fear is just to make sure that this doesn't happen again, like what are we, what's, you know, I feel like everyone's, I'm heartbroken about what happened, but I've been trying to keep my emotions to myself and keeping very solid that I do support, you know, our community, our homeless community, a lot of them are my friends. I just wanted to say I was quiet last time but I couldn't take by today because I have questions and I'm just worried for the future. Yeah, well I [27:41] Carollynn Lear: think to start specific to the railroad property, that was private property and a private property owner under our ordinances is always going to be absent there being like a tenant relationship is going to have the ability to ask a camper to leave from their property. I can have City staff prepare you something on what the various ordinances and laws are around camping on City property. I don't think it's a really clear-cut answer because there's different rules, some of it is ordinance, some of it is housing code stuff about what classes of property can have people camping on it. So I can put something together comprehensive for Council on all of those rules. [28:45] Joseph Leonard: So I guess my question is, where are we at right now? So we know that we are going to put together a committee for short term actions or short term planning. So are we as a council going to basically wait until that committee forms and then creates their plan? Or do we want to do anything before that committee forms to do proactive planning of sorts? So for example, we talked about sites that were available. I know we have some update information that regarding some of those sites that we can talk about as well, but is that something that the council wants to discuss or any other subjects that we want to discuss that would that would precursor the formation of this committee we [29:43] Susan Hawes: have our first of several meetings concerning encampments and the issues around them right after the first of the year, and they should be on the calendar now. I think David put them on there. The purpose of that, the first one was to really talk about what our next steps are. The first step being what I'm hearing from most people, that we want to get that committee formed. That doesn't mean that we'll stop planning and looking at things, but get the committee members chosen, get it formed, get them in here, have a joint meeting with them, let them know what their chart is going to be or whatever. But that's important. We have to have that committee, but we can still in the interim room discuss our thoughts as to what's next, our next steps as council. So yeah, that's important and we should have that. We talked about it at the end of the last meeting how we were going to get those committee members. Did we ever get past that? So I think where we left that meeting was that [30:56] Carollynn Lear: that folks were going to send me anything that they had as far as what either actual named individuals or sort of the types of representatives. And then I was gonna be prepared for that first meeting, if we get to it, if not that first meeting and the second one, to actually have a committee, list of committee members sort of framed out for council to respond to if you wanted to move. move and then you know to make a decision on moving forward with that committee so we'd want [31:28] Susan Hawes: to get that to you by the end of the month yeah do [31:45] Susan Deane: you think I don't know you thank you [31:52] Carolyn Fish: and I have some documents I 'll share with everybody but one of the things that I think with looking at making suggestions some of the things recommended was that we even go with our internal departments that have been dealing in the field with the issue and see what they recommend as well as we do look at our outreach people to add to the committee because we have almost all of our departments are somewhat involved whether it's health and counseling and parks and rec, the police, the fire. So we have a lot of people internally, and it would be good to know where they feel their strengths and weaknesses are, and what we as a council should probably get feedback from all of them to see how we can better collaborate with that to flow better, and then see what kind of outreach experts we could bring in to help kind of bring a round table. [32:59] Michael Beck: To the point about the looking at sites and the possible safe outdoor space, at the last acre committee they actually unanimously passed was a recommendation to council in the form of a legislative policy directive for us to look at and possibly pass to instruct the city manager and staff to create the plan for that safe outdoor space. I asked for it to be put on the gov ops committee agenda so we can look at what the recommendation involves, but that is something to throw on the table that the acre committee is recommending we move forward on something in the interest of human rights to deal with, you know, 45 people were that encampment when it started, and we don't know where they all went, and they're somewhere in our city. These are our neighbors, these are bingo residents, and we don't know where they went, and just to have just one more option, because you know solutions for this temporary they may be, it's always and give everyone an option that meets them where they're at, so that is a discussion that's going to continue as well, I hope, and again we may decide that it is better to wait till we have the committee to make that happen, because they may know more than us, I don't know, but it is a conversation I hope we can continue. [34:26] Jen Gunderman: And then, Councilwoman, just a quick question for you. I think what could be helpful in trying to determine who will be on the advisory committee is to think what will be the purpose of the advisory committee. So say, for example, you want your purpose to be, you know, this one of the things that was discussed was a short term committee to develop the strategic plan. And it seems to me you might want to have some people on the committee who've done that before, whether it's from inside of Bangor, outside of Bangor, and we definitely have some connections with regional leaders who have done this type of strategic planning around addressing homelessness. So I'm just thinking, even if you have just the slightest idea of what the purpose of the committee would be, that will really help you understand what skills and expertise that you'll want on your committee and would be helpful for city staff who want to help support you and execute this committee. [35:16] Susan Faloon: Okay thank you. Also I'm just concerned, like that's a couple of weeks away at that meeting. These people are just kind of spread around the city, some of them are moving like every night, and I'm just concerned, like we don't have a place to tell them to go, we don't have any safe space to tell them to go. That's a big concern for me. That's our team. I think that will probably lead [35:49] Susan Deane: us into the second topic about the warming centers, because we do have the well during the day, correct? I mean they have been informed that they can go there, they can charge their phones there, can they bathe there? [36:01] Jen Gunderman: I'm hearing a voice. I don't have the list on me, but I hear a list of yes from. So there are pretty few services available at the well. Bangor Area Homeless Shelter also offers some day space, and then the Together Place offers day space as part of their recovery programming. And then the library has been welcoming for people who want to charge things in the age. [36:24] Susan Deane: So we'll be probably hearing from those different places if people are actually taking advantage. They will see an increase in numbers, and will they report to someone so we know if these people are actually benefiting from these services? [36:37] Jen Gunderman: So what will happen is a couple of things. One is through our Hub 7 coordinator, I get every couple of times a week an update on the warming center numbers, and the Hub 7 coordinator is still coordinating that by name list that they will still talk about sort of where people have landed. We don't get a list of names from the warming shelters on, you know, who's there every night, and that can still be fluid based upon where people are able to stay, where they feel comfortable and staying. So we'll get some numbers, and then that by name list of the people who were in that space will be discussed at another meeting with the outreach teams next week. [37:18] Susan Deane: Has there been any unofficial, just, you know, people feel like it's being utilized more, or have you not heard anything? [37:24] Jen Gunderman: The warming hunters, it ebbs and flows. There is still space, none of the warming shelters have met their full capacity every evening. I haven't gotten the numbers for, since last week, and as soon as I get those, I share those with a city manager leader. there 's space it ebbs and flows probably if I was to predict it would probably see an increase in numbers tonight and you do not get gay center statistics no I don't but that's something that I can start to get sort of informally at least a once a week check in with the well and see how [38:06] Susan Faloon: things are going, absolutely, so both overnight warming centers have not reached capacity, all three have not reached curiosity, the reason I just asked for clarification is because some of the people that I spoke with today say they're being told in some instances that it's full [38:32] Jen Gunderman: full, there's no room for them. So if there's specific warming centers that they're hearing that from, we could follow up on it. [38:56] Susan Hawes: Okay. Any other questions? [38:59] Wayne Mallar: That's a good question. [39:02] Michael Beck: Where, do we leave it with the homeless response manager, we're going to work on a job description to get that up, yes, yep, and then [39:12] Carollynn Lear: fingers crossed that we can hire for that really quickly, because I think it's really important to this overall conversation that we're having, when [39:22] Susan Hawes: do you anticipate that we'll be ready to press [39:27] Jen Gunderman: it is in my hands and I tell you I am the wonderful week of holidays where there's less [39:33] Carollynn Lear: meetings, it's a priority for this week to get done, realistically hiring isn't typically successful over the holidays anyway, people tend to not be looking for jobs, so I think posting it after January one is strategically, absolutely, okay, anybody [39:55] Susan Hawes: else have comments, questions before we move on, same [40:04] Carollynn Lear: none, are you staying with us as well, yes, and then you might as well stay as well, so next on the list is just an update on warming centers, I know that there's sort of an outstanding question about a particular warming center that has reached out to several counselors, we're not really prepared to dig into that situation currently, we don't really have enough information to have a really thoughtful conversation about that, I just wanted to give you sort of a general update on what we're hearing from warming centers about how things are going this winter, because as we all recognize they're a really critical component of the infrastructure for the unhoused population right now, so I [40:54] Michael Beck: Just want to raise this before council. I may have a conflict. Now that we're starting to get into substantive discussions about the Together Place, over the summer my wife was contracted to grant writing there. She worked there through August 31st. However, during the calendar year she did receive a income from them. So I wanted to get a determination of whether or not I had that conflict, if I need to leave the room when the other place is discussed. Feelings [41:21] Susan Hawes: about that in the conversation I had with you prior to this meeting, I would say that you do have a conflict with the Together Place. Not all of them, just that one particular one. If she has been financially, if she's had financial gain, that's really what we base the conflict on. So what does the rest of you think? Has to come from [41:54] Carolyn Fish: I feel there's a conflict. I think if you know another member had a financial gain from their family member appear at least to the public even as well as I would have to have a second [42:07] Susan Deane: thought about that potential conflict. [42:12] Susan Hawes: That being said, does the rest of council feel that he does have with that one facility, the Together Place, a conflict? I [42:27] Susan Deane: would say on the financial end yes. I think it would be a shame not to have Council Beck be a productive member of a broader conversation about this topic, but as far as a Together Place and what's happening financially Together Place, [42:42] Susan Hawes: I think there is a conflict. It would only be with the Together Place. So if they bring something to us, he would have to leave the room, much like Council Leonard does on a couple of things that he has declared conflicts on. All right, it's not unheard of. We do have to protect the entities out [43:03] Carollynn Lear: there. So we want a motion on that. Yeah, so I think Dave said check would yes, like Dave had on he would want to vote. We'll see here. No, we say yes. Is there a motion? I have [43:18] Susan Deane: a motion that there areas of potential conflict with Councillor Beck and the Together Place. Is there a second? [43:25] Susan Hawes: Okay, so I moved and seconded. Any further discussion? Any [Angela Walker: objections? Okay.] It is, it has been voted that he does have a conflict with the Together. All [43:51] Michael Beck: right, do I need to leave now or nothing in particular? [43:57] Carollynn Lear: I don't plan on specifically discussing any one warming shelter. So I guess it was two weeks ago now that Jen and I met with the three executives that run the city's three overnight warming shelters, the Mansion Church, the Brick Church, and the Together Prince are the three. As you'll recall, the city had provided funding to two when it became clear in the early fall that Bengal wasn't going to have sufficient warming center space. And with that funding, the city has 160 total overnight warming center spaces. And so far, as you already heard Jen say, they've hovered around about half full this winter at sort of the highest point so that's good on paper we have sufficient warming center space but we certainly expect that utilization will increase as winter progresses and in light of the activities at the railroad encampment as well that folks will choose to enter overnight warming centers the executives at all three of those warming centers have although they've only been about half full, have expressed some challenges with the behaviors of some of the folks staying there that inevitably causes stress on their staff. They're all primarily volunteer staffed overnight. And so when there's challenges in a warming center overnight, that's really challenging for volunteer staff. gap. And so that certainly has us concerned as well, because we rely on those warming shelters to provide people a warm space overnight. And that's really important. I mean, I don't know that we need to get into sort of the gritty details about the behaviors or why they may be happening. Just I think suffice it to say this is a demographic of folks who have very complex needs and so those congregate living spaces can become a place for like heightened challenges and so I would say at this point the executives at those warming centers have expressed concerns you know about the sustainability of the volunteer networks and their ability to take you know at capacity levels of overnight guests and Jen and I are pretty closely monitoring that situation. I know that Jen has been reaching out regularly to folks to check in to see what their numbers are, but also how they're doing, whether they're able to accept people. We're trying to keep a close eye on that so that we don't get caught unaware with the potential that we don't have adequate space when we thought we did. Anything to [46:59] Jen Gunderman: To add about that, Jen? No, I think that articulates it really well. I think that what I recognized is that the warming centers that we have in place, they are going above and beyond their original mission of work to provide a really important service to our community. And that just became clear in the conversation that they are just- really amazing human beings who are trying to do best for our community. [47:35] Joseph Leonard: Excellent. Do you have more? No, go ahead. I just want to echo what you said, Jen. I've volunteered a few times at some of these overnight warming shelters, one of which you're supposed to be partnered up with another individual. And a lot of times, one of those people is actually someone who is transitioning out of homelessness and volunteering on their own time to actually look over individuals or in these warming shelters and hey I can tell you right now that as someone who at the time I had night jobs it was a little bit more convenient but these are incredibly stressful situations to be on you can get assaulted you can be verbally attacked a lot of nights are rather, from what I've heard, and they're just rather monotonous and boring. And once you go to sleep, once everyone goes to sleep, it just becomes a very, long endurance draining evening for people who stay up that night to make sure everyone's safe. And we can't keep relying on volunteers for this. We're burning out some of these incredible people and they have other lives and other family members that they need to assist in their own lives as well. I mean, I was already on board with the city having its own warming shelter with its own operators years ago, but I mean, after hearing what you just said, I mean, how much longer can these warming shelters operate with their current volunteer staff as is. I mean, this is back-breaking work. And this is, I completely agree, unsustainable, what a lot of these executives see their situation as. At least how I see it, we're going to have to put some skin in the game and relieve these nonprofits to actually do work that they are more capable of doing that is more productive for their own abilities and let us do the backbreaking work of taking people in sheltering them because we can also offer a place for a lot of these nonprofits and other networks to come to us to actually work with us and we can organize that work much more feasibly if it's on our property on our terms as well. It's much more difficult to do that when it's a private property that's doing this, because you don't want to tell the person who is doing an incredible duty, this is how it needs to be done. Like it just, it has to be done. And kudos to Gather Place, kudos to Brick Church and Mansion Church, but I don't see how they can continue to do this for much longer. The city has to get involved and I know that just means more investment on our end, but I keep saying this, homelessness is incredibly expensive as is, and if we continue to do nothing, we're going to continue to lose money as a city, so we have to do something. Thanks. [51:09] Susan Deane: Fish, I agree, we have to do [51:13] Carolyn Fish: something city owned from the calls of baby research been warned almost 100 of the time for the city our size and our budget that you know there's another avenue that you know there's a lot of non-profits and other experts that are not at the table that somehow I think we need to bring to the table that do have the expertise and the resources in their you know Mia and I think that it is our responsibility to bring these institutes you know hospitals maybe even for profit maybe just because They're not in Bangor. I think there's a lot of other expert and resources that we need to bring to the table as partners, but for to for us to lead for 45 to 100 people when we have a lot of issues in Bangor and as leaders we have to be fair. And when I look at the hours and the time and the money and the resources we're giving, because we're compassionate and it's serious, at this point, I'm willing to look at more information. But I think we really need to bring some other partners to the table. We need to internalize our own research to look at what our departments are already spending. And I think we need to get that organized and really fine tuned before we can feel like we're expert enough to take on a city-owned encampment. I agree, it's messed up, we gotta all right together, there's a lot of people not at the table that should be at the table. I [52:55] Jen Gunderman: also want to recognize that particularly with the two warming centers, the Mansion and the Brick, they've been doing this for a really long time and they've actually developed some incredible skills and operations and infrastructure. What I heard in part of our conversation was, and Pastor Leon and Pastor Lincoln can totally correct me if I'm wrong, is what I didn't hear was, we don't want to do this anymore. What I heard was, how can we get some more support from, how can we do better to partner with crisis? How can, as a city, can we look at the, what we call high utilizers or services? How can we move the system in a better way so that the warming centers aren't dealing with crisis after crisis under crisis? So I just want to clarify what we didn't hear was, this is our last year, we don't want to do this anymore. They've actually have built programs after all these years that in some ways have played really great operations. It was more like, this is what we're seeing. seeing, we need some more support in these other areas so that we're not always in crisis mode when someone might be coming through the door. So I definitely welcome any other interpretation from our leaders, but that's kind of what I heard them say. Any [54:23] Susan Hawes: other questions? Comments? [54:26] Michael Beck: another question about if when we do get to the not land hopefully if we don't but if we get to the point where we hit that capacity do we have any kind of a protocol set up where you know we get a call from together plans call from brexit hey we're close i know needlepoint in the past had stepped in they mentioned that they weren't interested in this year do we have another rail in case we reach that point i [54:53] Carollynn Lear: don't know the answer to that question we can we can put sort of survey the folks who've been here longer than Jen and I and figure out what the plan would be and then come back to you with that any [55:13] Susan Deane: other that's a good question [55:26] Susan Faloon: did they let you know I know you get sort of like general numbers do they give you like capacity numbers, like on a regular basis or days, sorry, I keep going back to like the fact that several people told me today that they have been told, and I can get more information, but I don't know which facility or multiple facilities that they were full and they were turned away. And that just concerns me. And I'm wondering if like they've ever been close to capacity or because according to these people there was no situation that would have caused them to be turned away other than being like 10 minutes late anyway i sorry i just dig into [56:13] Jen Gunderman: it and find out the specific situation i can follow i can absolutely follow yeah i will [56:18] Susan Faloon: because that concerns me if people are being turned away but there's there's capacity so, yeah, it makes me want to dig deeper. Absolutely. [56:26] Jen Gunderman: Yeah. Follow up on any details, and I can dig. [56:31] Susan Deane: That's something I see negative on this, but when someone is in crisis, they don't always realize they're in crisis. So perhaps these individuals were not at a point where they really should have been let in. So we probably need to find that out. Because the next day, they see things differently than whoever was volunteering that night might have seen it as some sort of an issue. But maybe somebody else was there might know that they don't get along with a certain person. It's not a good idea to bring this one in tonight. There's probably more to it. I'm hoping, I'm sure. [57:02] Susan Faloon: there is yeah i yeah i'm sure so i 'll get into it yeah so it can be addressed okay and to follow [57:11] Michael Beck: Up on that's a good point, because if they're in crisis, they can't be led in one place. Is there a protocol then, like do they pick up the phone and say, okay, what do we do for this person, because they're still gonna freeze whether they're having a crisis or not. What happens to that individual? [57:23] Jen Gunderman: A few things from what I heard in talking with the three leaders. One is that they have the crisis numbers. They call police when needed, not for, but for more like deescalation purposes. What is also came very clear to me in the conversation was that the three of them actually talk to each other. Like we may not be able to have someone here, but can they go over there? Or like there's communication between the leaders. And so there's some internal backup plans, and then there's calling in the resources from the outside, crisis, police, ambulance, every time this happens there. [58:04] Michael Beck: Is people are being left outside one way or another, they're finding some inside. [58:09] Susan Faloon: That meets them where they're at. I don't know what I could probably say in. [58:15] Jen Gunderman: Listening to conversations, what I've observed is that everyone tries their best to offer an opportunity, if that person isn't the right fit for that opportunity because there might be other extenuating circumstances, that person may not have a place to go. And that's part of our system. It's like people who are in sometimes in those crisis moments, there may not be a place. But what I've seen is everyone is trying their hardest to find them a place. Anything. [58:55] Susan Hawes: Else? Are we ready for manager updates? [59:07] Carollynn Lear: So my updates today are a bit mundane, which may be welcome. So just some quick items. I'm sure you all saw that we have a tentative date set for our state legislators to come in and talk with us about our priorities and theirs for the upcoming legislative session. That is going to be at least tentatively set for January 5th. That's normally a committee meeting night, so we'll put a special council work session on to start and then go into committee meetings, and fingers cross those committee meetings will have light agendas so that it's not a late night. I will also get a follow-up session scheduled so that you all can finalize your priorities for the upcoming year. I'm keeping my eye out for a similarly light agended either normal work session or committee night to schedule some time to do that so that we don't have to have a standalone meeting, especially because we have those two already special scheduled meetings for January. A happy reminder, I think, because it is the holidays, there's no council meetings scheduled for next Monday. It is a leap week, so there are no Monday meetings. I wanted to give you a little bit of an update about the federal CDC's visit to Bangor. And I'm sorry, you don't have to come back up, but I should have just said stay. It's sort of gotten lost in the mix I think a little bit because we've been having all of these really important conversations about the railroad encampment, but for several weeks now there has been a team of several federal CDC employees here doing qualitative research about the HIV outbreak. They're getting close to wrapping up their work. They'll do a debrief soon with our public health team, and then we'll also get sort of a more formal report out of what they have seen as well as some recommendations. And then theoretically, it could also result in additional technical assistance coming from the federal CDC. So they've been working with our public health team. They've also been working with providers. And they've been spending a lot of time with the impacted community, you know the first meeting that comes Rebecca and I went to at the UU church, they were there talking to folks within the community. So I think they should have some really helpful information for our public health team to help us move forward in managing that outbreak. So that's positive. positive. And then the last two items I wanted to chat about relates to tonight's agenda. So first, under new business, you will see a revised remote participation policy up for a vote. A vote on this tonight will allow us to begin accepting remote public comments at the first meeting in January. And then I believe you all received an email from Attorney Dave Subcheck about the need to remove an item from the consent agenda. I think, Counselor Dean, you actually draw the short stick and actually do the procedure to remove that item from the consent agenda. That is an item relative to the appointment of constables. Certain city employees have to be designated as constables yearly, and some fresh eyes evaluated that, fresh eyes that were not me evaluated that list and determined that we were maybe including some city staff on that list that don't actually need that constable designation, and because being a constable comes with a lot of authorities, it doesn't make sense to give it to people if they don't actually need it to do their job, so Lisa Goodwin is going to have a revised list to be voted on tonight, but will require that to be removed from the consent agenda. [1:03:35] Susan Deane: I do have a question. The list isn't actually part of the order. [1:03:40] Carollynn Lear: Lisa will have the list. The list is part of the order. It is. And that's what needs to be substituted out. So that will be a new list to me. Yeah, Lisa will have that. All Dave sent was the script of what to say and effectuate. [1:03:56] Susan Deane: When do I actually read that? After I read the original one? Then I read the amended one. [1:04:01] Carollynn Lear: So you don't actually have to read the list aloud. It's just an attachment. There is mud, right? I'm sure it will be seamless. All right. So that is all I have for city manager updates. Okay. [1:04:22] Joseph Leonard: Council member. Regarding the legislative meeting earlier this year, council talked about forming a legislative committee as well to sort of, even outside the legislative, when they're actually legislating and forming their LDs and voting on them, pushing them off to appropriations committee, I think it would be very advantageous for us as a council to formulate our own legislative committee. Doesn't have to meet all the time, but that would give us the opportunity to throughout the entire year brainstorm bills that we can then provide to our legislators so that the you know whether they want to push them forward or not we at least have done the homework for them so that if they agree on a bill that we're pushing their way that 's much easier for them to submit if we've already done the first draft of that bill for them done the research done the networking and organizing to see whether or not this would even have a remote chance of being passed or whatnot, but the reason why I bring this up is because we do have to be more proactive with Augusta. This is a way for us to be more proactive if we're constantly thinking about the legislative session by having, let's say, a quarterly legislative committee meeting that Mies discusses our strategies and potentially even has some of our state legislators as part of members of that committee as well. That would help us out immensely. So do you think we could potentially add that as part of the discussion for this upcoming legislative meeting? Or is that too much for the agenda? You think? [1:06:26] Carollynn Lear: Yeah, I think we could fit on the agenda, I would just look to full council before wanting to formally place that on the item, that item on the agenda. [1:06:38] Susan Hawes: Do we have counselors that would be interested in sitting on a committee? There's one, there's two, there's three, four, that would probably suffice with the added legislators. Yes, you have a question. [1:06:55] Daniel Carson: I just want to comment that I support the idea for the reasons you mentioned, but also another one and it's more cultural, but I think we remember a couple of weeks back how the state legislators talk about how they're willing to be partners to us, but they need plans for them to be able to take to fund. Culturally, municipal government sort of works a different way. We almost have to know where our funds are going to come from before we can create a plan. And I think a legislative committee would help us to talk a little bit more so that we're able to build plans that they can fund. So it's almost great. We work in different ways. And that's a bit of a disconnect between a gospel a simple government [1:07:38] Joseph Leonard: I [1:07:41] Susan Deane: love that I would say we would put her on the agenda as soon as [1:07:47] Susan Hawes: everybody's for it oh yeah that's awesome okay anybody else councilman well I have a question [1:07:58] Wayne Mallar: on the consent agenda is we're going to be doing approving someone to operate or to work as our representative for the kitchen. Do we have full funding for the kitchen? Did we do bonding? [1:08:16] Carollynn Lear: I would have to. I don't have that answer off the top of my head, Counselor. I'm sorry. [1:08:21] Wayne Mallar: That's all right. I just think before we hire someone, which you're gonna be negotiating a contract, I need to know- Or my resume. Yes, right, true. I would like to know that we have the funding for it. [1:08:34] Carollynn Lear: Oh, and the one that I will say is that will come back to you for final approval of any contract of the actual contract negotiated. [1:08:43] Wayne Mallar: So it's a waste of time negotiating a contract if you don't have the money to pay for. [1:08:48] Carollynn Lear: Contract she seemed yeah I love that Ann is here that's perfect that. [1:08:58] Wayne Mallar: Makes it easier. Good evening. [1:09:13] Susan Hawes: Ann Craig, Director of Community and Economic Development. We have one million in congressional spending, we have 500,000 that staff obtained from the Northern Border Commission, and then in the current budget that was approved there's the ability to bond six million dollars on top of that. [1:09:44] Wayne Mallar: yeah because being new to the board bonding has been approved or it's just been in the budget it's in the budget we [1:09:54] Susan Hawes: haven't brought it to you yet because we're trying to we want to finalize the final cost [1:10:01] Wayne Mallar: Of the project before we request. So the person we're hiring is going to be doing what, I guess. [1:10:08] Susan Hawes: Is my question, in construction we'll be doing, you know, taking the construction drawings and the specifications and preparing a proposal for the, you know, the cost of construction. Okay. [1:10:25] Wayne Mallar: It just seems like, well, what did the architects do? The architects prepared the construction drawings. [1:10:32] Susan Hawes: And the specifications, cost, didn't they, with proposed costs? That's correct, and that's how we got to the numbers that we're working with. So is this a duplication of effort? He's, if he's providing it, I don't think so. I mean, as Public Works and our Engineering Departments, I'll say we, I mean, every time we go to bid, from month to month, it's, it's a different number. So the situation with this is it's very similar to what we're doing on Grandview. Instead of going straight to bid for construction with. The Grandview project, we did an RFQ process to find the developer we wanted to work with, and then we're working with them to develop the plan. It's very similar to now what we're proposing to do for the Central Kitchen is we went and found the construction manager and company we wanted to work with, and we're working with them to finalize the costs. [1:11:27] Wayne Mallar: But they have no, when we hire a developer to work with, usually the developer has some, put in some financial interest in it. Obviously this person does not have a financial. No, because. [1:11:38] Susan Hawes: City property, yeah, so that's the difference. Absolutely, yeah, it just seems to me before we [1:11:45] Wayne Mallar: jump into this too far, we, it would be logical to me to approve the bonding first so that you got all your money before you go out to hire people to do things, because if you don't get the bonding [1:11:58] Susan Hawes: and you've wasted money, well, they can't start construction without a con, without that final contract. So as the city manager said, we're going to come back to you with their proposal for the construction costs, contingencies and the like for your approval, and then we go to bond for payment. [1:12:16] Wayne Mallar: I understand that, but how do you negotiate a contract with someone when you have, when it just doesn't seem to be the person that's going to be applying to get the contract, is it's questionable whether it's ever going to be built or not the way we're going about it, and I kind of think we're taking advantage of the person that's [1:12:41] Susan Hawes: you're hiring if we don't finish the project. Well, staff has made the assumption all along that this was a project that the city wanted to see go forward. So if that, if the council has changed that perspective, then yes, you know, we need to have that conversation. But I mean, this project was started in 2015, 2016. So it's been an active, you know, we had to shelve it for a while with the lockdown, during, you know, the lockdown times, but then we brought it back after that. So it's been pretty much an active project with our department for a while. [1:13:30] Wayne Mallar: It's just old and crotchety. I'd like to see it come back to us before we go over. To use someone else's time to request a bid. And I have issues with, are we ready to do that or not? For me, I'm not, because I get more confused every time I look at the project. And if it was done in 17, that was what, eight years ago? What has changed? It's not so changed. [1:13:57] Susan Hawes: I mean, when we started the project, just before I started working here in 2019, so it was previous staff, but we assumed we were just going to be renovating the Officers Club. And over time, the building became deteriorated. And we got to that point where demo rebuild was cheaper than renovation. It had gone so far, the destruction of the building was just so far that we, you know, so we have made changes along the way to bring down costs. [1:14:31] Wayne Mallar: I remember reviewing part of the central kitchen, was there a period of time when the city would be contributing tax revenues to maintain it, like the first five years? [1:14:42] Susan Hawes: For the first, yeah, when we did the feasibility study, there was an assumption that for the first few years that there would have to be an investment in that. [1:14:53] Wayne Mallar: What was the investment? Do you remember? [1:14:56] Susan Hawes: I will send you, I don't remember, but I can resend all of those. [1:15:00] Wayne Mallar: It seems to me it was in the amount of like a million dollars a year. [1:15:03] Susan Hawes: I don't think it was that much, but I'll double check and get that to you. [1:15:07] Wayne Mallar: I think we need to see that information before you go out and potentially you go out and or your designee to negotiate with someone it's not in good faith to negotiate if you don't know [1:15:18] Susan Hawes: a project is going to go if the council wishes we can put this on your next bed agenda for a [1:15:23] Carollynn Lear: rediscussion yeah I think what I'm hearing is that there were questions probably that we should have discussed at the committee meeting about this yeah I think there [1:15:35] Susan Hawes: there were questions that came up even before that meeting and then after. But sure, it probably wouldn't hurt to sit and review the whole project. Because I think there was confusion, right from the start of whether you were going to demolish and rebuild, or you were going to renovate. Then we kind of didn't have any discussion for quite some time about the kitchen, for whatever reason, I don't know. And then it went on to now we're going to be doing this so i think it would be a good update for us to really look at the whole project and be able to ask the questions of the right people right then and so that will [1:16:19] Carollynn Lear: be another one that you'll want to pull off the consent agenda am i understanding that correctly yes and then table it to your defense regularly scheduled council meeting [1:16:39] Susan Hawes: this would have to go to the bed first you're going to take it to bed on the 5th right january 5th yeah so that would be the week after that correct let's hope that's a fairly light agenda that night because this could be a fairly lengthy yeah i'll try to push some things that aren't as time sensitive to your second meeting in january or bed then that would be good that would give us a good block of time to look at this project [1:17:27] Carollynn Lear: all right thank you thank you i'm so glad you were here anything else [1:17:38] Joseph Leonard: very [1:17:45] Susan Hawes: good we have about 30 minutes before we start counseling meetings so you actually can walk it off or whatever swing along sing along all right we're gonna come by now [1:17:58] Susan Faloon: And we'll be shut down immediately. Yes, is that the thing? Sorry, so that's the two six dash zero five zero, the zero five zero. How much is that? You, that's me, I'll get all, I didn't do one of those a little bit. Thanks counselor. We're gonna script but it will probably [1:18:21] Carollynn Lear: be handwritten by our lawyers. Very poor handwriting. Okay. [1:18:30] Susan Hawes: If there's nothing else we will, we'll adjourn the workshop and we'll start at seven.