Bangor Historic Preservation Committee approves awning for 30 Central Street

[0:17] Nathaniel King: All right, apologies for the little bit of a late start, but good evening and welcome to the July 9th, 2026 meeting of the Historic Preservation Commission. My name is Nathaniel King, I'm the chair of the commission. The commission members are to my right. [0:33] Rebecca Krupke: Rebecca Krepke and Peter Sachs. [0:38] Ann Krieg: Okay, from the city of Bangor we have Ann Krieg, I'm director of community and economic development. [0:46] Speaker D (unidentified): In fact, we have Kaylee Reines, Development Assistant, Matt [0:54] Peter James Sachs: Altiero, Planning Analyst, and then we also have our esteemed consultant, Mike Poland, Architect, Consultant to the Commission. [1:02] Nathaniel King: So, the Historic Preservation Commission has two roles. First, we serve as the Bangor Center Revitalization Area Design Review Committee, designated under Section 71 of the City Ordinances, which covers review issues in the downtown and waterfront areas of Bangor. Second, the Commission has several responsibilities in the Historic Preservation Section of City Ordinances, including issuing Certificates of Appropriateness for construction of or changes to buildings within the city's designated historic districts. We may need to review a proposal under both design review and historic preservation criteria. If all regular members are in attendance, our associate members participate in the meeting, but do not vote on motions. In the event that any regular members are absent, associate members will vote such that there are a total of five votes for any motion. So, we've had a recent change to the historic preservation application regs. They now must receive a majority vote for a certificate appropriateness to be issued, and a design review must also receive a majority vote for approval. So the order of the meeting, I will call the application applicants in the order that they appear on the agenda. When I call your project, I will ask you to present your application from the podium. Once you've made your presentation, I will first ask for the consultant's report, second for questions from Commission members, and third for any questions or comments from the audience. When discussion is complete, the Commission will take action on the proposal to approve, deny, or otherwise handle it. When a proposal is being evaluated under both design review and historic preservation criteria, the Commission will make separate motions related to each type of review. I will then ask for Commission member votes. Some final points for applicants before the HPC. If it looks like your project will not be approved, you may choose to withdraw your application, amend your application, and then resubmit your application for a future meeting, saving the application fee. If you disagree with the decision of the Commission regarding your project, you have the right to appeal the decision to the Board of Appeals. All projects need to be started within six months and completed within a year. Otherwise, a new application to the commission will need to be made and approved prior to starting your project. Before we begin, are there any additions to the agenda for consideration? [Speaker F (unidentified): No? Okay.] So, moving that, we will move on to the agenda. So, the first thing I have on the agenda, when I can zoom into my screen here, is the approval of the meeting minutes from the June 25, 2026 meeting. So I would entertain a motion to approve or otherwise adjust those meeting minutes. [3:57] Katie Coe: I make a motion to approve the meeting minutes for, what day is it? June 25th. June 25th. Seconded. [4:06] Nathaniel King: Yes. Yes. And I also vote yes. It passes. So now we will move on to new business, which is the Certificate of Appropriateness and Design Review for 30 Central Street, map law 041-066 in the great fire historic district the applicant is Rebecca Garcia owner is Betsy Lundy you [4:31] Ann Krieg: can go right to the podium just make sure that green light is on [4:36] Public commenter: So I've never done this thank you for listening to me I own the little store and we just painted the whole thing black. I think it looks so pretty even though it preserved the building. And I would like for you to consider, we would like to add an awning to it. It will be striped black and white. And I am very excited about it because I think it's going to make the building even prettier and I really believe that it's going to add value to Central [5:17] Speaker D (unidentified): Street thank you so much it's fine okay consultant's report please thank you yeah [5:27] Peter James Sachs: Thank you I may have a couple questions for you and you can respond to them First of all, the history of the building, as you said, this is in the Great Fire Historic District and it's also in the Bangor Center revitalization area of the city. The building dates back to 1911 or 1912, which was as a lot of buildings in downtown Bangor, which were constructed after the Great Fire. So it's part of a block. This was, this building is called the Fry Dugan Staples Block building. Was designed by Victor Hodgins, who is a talented local architect, and is one of the few buildings in the downtown that is clad in terracotta. The other building that I know of is up adjacent to Bangor Savings Bank on State Street. The building to the left of that, I think it may be a clothing store now, is also terracotta. Rather rare in Bangor to see terracotta. So my, we had received an earlier application and I think the applicant has clarified some of the questions I had asked. Whether or not the first of all the gift sign, the sign is on the sign band so to speak above the storefront, on that horizontal sign band. Looks like you have a new sign from what was originally proposed. Looks like it's more solid maybe and painted, so that's been shifted. So the question was, is the proposed awning to be mounted above or below the sign band? Below. So that will be just so you, so you'll see the sign band above and then the awning below It okay, I think there's a minimum height. I don't why that comes to my mind, but was it some minimum height about awnings or something [7:27] Ann Krieg: There has to be a clearance of eight feet to the right, just make sure that happens. Okay, yeah [7:35] Peter James Sachs: Eight feet clear so nobody is hitting it or you can jump up and hit it. Yeah sure, okay, yeah. And then again my question, because we had an earlier photograph, but as you say you've now painted the inside, the bulkheads, you remember this term bulkhead from the last meeting, were painted black and the surround inside of the whole shop is kind of bordered with white pilasters on each side. Those were kept white. Look at the photograph. So the black doesn't begin until it's inside of that, which is a nice detail. So my question was whether or not the terracotta was going to remain white, but I think you've answered that specifically. Yeah, so is there any other painting to be done since this photograph was, is this a recent photograph you [8:27] Public commenter: submitted? We just need to finish up the left a tiny bit, like literally maybe a food. Yeah, but that 's all we want to do. [Katie Coe: Yeah,, like that.] Yeah, my son will, he could only reach so far. [8:49] Peter James Sachs: Get the ladder out. Okay, that's all I had for tonight. [8:54] Nathaniel King: Okay, thank you. All right, commentary from questions from the commission. [9:07] Katie Coe: I'm not sure. I don't know a lot about terracotta, but I'm assuming that whoever's going to put an awning in would know how to do it appropriately so it doesn't hurt the terracotta or crack it or whatever. [9:22] Peter James Sachs: I could speak about that a little bit. Those terracotta panels are blocks. If you look at the photograph, they're fairly well defined. They're glazed on the outer face. So you might see a little bit of cracking on those if you look closely. So we would not recommend that you put any fasteners into the face of the block. It should go in the mortar joints between the blocks. It's gonna be any of that. Yeah, good question. [9:56] Rebecca Krupke: Do you have any questions? I have no questions for the applicant. [10:00] Nathaniel King: Okay. Do we have anyone on Zoom? I don't think we have anyone in the audience. [10:09] Katie Coe: I have one more question. [10:11] Nathaniel King: I'm sorry. Is there anybody in the zoom that would like to ask any questions? [10:19] Katie Coe: I have one more question. I'm right here. And I think this might be you're gonna maybe paint it but it looks like a little tiny bit of white was left up here too. Are you gonna paint that black kind of define that area or no, leave it? Oh, here. Okay, I don't know what I can't see the other side. [10:52] Ann Krieg: To stay at a microphone just because yeah people watching can't hear finish that little strip. [11:02] Nathaniel King: Too yes yeah okay so now I believe it's time for our debate or discussion so let's discuss. [11:15] Katie Coe: Okay I don't have any issues it's fine with it I mean there was awnings all over the place in the. [11:20] Rebecca Krupke: 1800s yeah that's going color naturally well yeah after walking around the area in last Thursday when it was rather warm outside I would for reasons beyond the scope of this of this committee I think it will be a lovely addition to have some shade there yeah it's sad how many awnings are gone now but no I've no I certainly have no objection from the perspective as a. [11:45] Speaker F (unidentified): Commissioner okay. [11:48] Nathaniel King: Yeah seeing no other issues or no other discussion points do we want to move on to any motions who wants to do the reading my one duty is chair I don't have to do the readings it's good to be the king yep you're the new guy so you can do it okay well I would also entertain a motion that the. [12:14] Speaker D (unidentified): Highlighted yellow portions that called out do not apply to this application I motion that part. [12:23] Rebecca Krupke: Two sections three five six and eight as well as the entirety of part three be struck for irrelevance. [12:36] Nathaniel King: Is there a second my. [Speaker F (unidentified): Second yes.] Yes okay so we find that the yellow portions are not applicable right okay now real quick question and before we get hard into this are we gonna do this twice once for design review once for certificate of appropriateness or are we doing just all of. [13:09] Speaker D (unidentified): This that's highlighted green and then we are good yeah I think I mean the way at the. [13:16] Ann Krieg: Decision is constructed, it seems like it was combined. Correct, it says, yeah, it says grants a [13:22] Speaker D (unidentified): certificate and a design permit. Okay, right, yeah, we did them as combined in the past, and also the procedural background will need to be voted on too. Yes, I know, I just wanted to make sure. Yeah. [13:33] Nathaniel King: And design review. Okay. Cool. So let's start with a motion for the procedural background. Thank you, Matt. Project. Yeah. The date will be July 9th, not June 14th. Ah, yes. Yeah. [13:46] Rebecca Krupke: A motion to accept the procedural background, which is, one, the application was deemed complete on July 9th, 2026, two, the proposed project is a Certificate of Appropriateness and design review, and three, that the applicant paid all applicable fees. I [14:06] Nathaniel King: second. Yes, I vote yes. She drew background is met. I will now take the [14:15] Speaker D (unidentified): motions for applicable provisions and bindings. All right, I motion that part 1 [14:21] Rebecca Krupke: section 1, that I motion to approve part 1, section 1, the Commission finds that based off of exhibits one and four, the applicant satisfied historic preservation code section 148-9a, requiring that any alteration of the historic structure will preserve or enhance its historic historical and architectural character. I second. Yes. All right. And I motion that the commission approves part two, section one, that the commission finds that based off exhibits one and four, the application satisfies historic preservation code section 148-9B2A, requiring that every reasonable effort shall be made to provide a compatible use which will require a minimum alteration to the structure and its environment. [15:18] Speaker F (unidentified): I second. Yes. Okay. [15:28] Rebecca Krupke: I motion that the commission finds that based on or part two, section two, the commission finds that based off of exhibits one and four, that the application satisfies historic preservation code section 1489B2B, requiring that rehabilitation work does not destroy the distinguishing qualities nor character of the structure and its environment. Second. [15:55] Nathaniel King: Yes. Yes. I vote yes. All right. [16:00] Rebecca Krupke: I motion that the Commission accept Part 2, Section 4. That the Commission find that, based off of Exhibits 1 and 4, the application satisfies Historic Preservation Code Section 1489B2D, requiring that distinctive stylistic features or examples of skilled craftsmanship which characterize historic structures is not damaged or destroyed wherever possible. Second. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. I motion that the Commission accept Part 2, Section 7. The commission finds that based off of exhibits 1 and 4, the application satisfies historic preservation codes section 1489B2G requiring contemporary design for additions to only be approved if such designs is compatible with the size, scale, material, and character of the neighborhood, structures, or its environment. [17:02] Nathaniel King: Second. Yes. Yes. I also vote yes. All right. [17:08] Rebecca Krupke: Right. I motion that the commission accept part two, section nine, that the commission finds that based off of exhibits one and four, that the application satisfies historic preservation code section 1489B2I, requiring that wherever possible, all alterations to structures shall be done in such a manner that if they were to be removed in the future, the essential form and integrity of the original structure would be unimpaired. I second. Yes. I also vote yes. All right. And finally I motion for part five that the commission finds that based off of the findings in parts one and two of section four of this document that the project meets the requirements for a certificate of appropriateness and therefore grants a certificate of appropriate appropriateness and design review permit for the proposed project. I second. Yes. I also vote yes. [18:11] Nathaniel King: All right. The design review permit and certificate of appropriateness passes three zero. [18:19] Speaker D (unidentified): Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. That's great. Yeah. Okay. Can I go? Yeah, you're safe. Get your permit. Yeah. Okay. All right. So that concludes the certificate [18:38] Nathaniel King: of appropriateness and design review. So now we move on to discussing character defining features [18:42] Peter James Sachs: in the historic districts. I can, I'll kind of lead this conversation. It's just open for discussion tonight. You just voted to find that application because your ordinance requires that the rehabilitation work does not destroy the distinguishing qualities nor character of the structure this environment. So you made that decision. Had you seen something in there that would be clearly affecting rehabilitation workers affecting the distinguishing qualities, one example might have been if they were going To take off those beautiful details at the top of the conversation, say you might find that would be removing or destroying distinguishing qualities of this building. So as we were, you all here at the last one when we did the slideshow, did you catch that one? Okay, then you should get a copy. If we could get a copy to you, we did. We kind of, I pointed out in a slideshow, kind of a PowerPoint about distinguishing characteristics of the various styles of buildings in Banglore. So we went style by style. Everybody was asleep by the time I was done, but I woke them up and I started to ask some questions. The styles that we talked about were, and I'm just going to read this from the minutes of our meeting last time, colonial, federal, Greek Revival, Gothic Revival, Italianate, Second Empire, shingle, Queen Anne, and Craftsman. We went through all of those styles pointing out what would be considered character defining features of those particular styles. So the point was to all the members to get your hands on. Something like the American, the Virginia McAllister's book on a guide to field guide I think it's called to American architecture, because point by point, if you saw a Greek Revival building and it had beautiful columns on the front of it and the client, the applicant didn't care for those and they were going to take those out and replace them with just a box in plywood, you might say to that applicant, those are distinguishing characteristic features of that building, that's architecture, that's. Important, it speaks about that style of building. So you're on solid ground when you use that, especially by style. The one thing that Ann and I were mentioning before, I was mentioning to Ann before the meeting was it would be also valuable for applicants if we could add character defining features to the definitions of the ordinance so that you and any applicant that comes in can clearly see that's what's expected, because I think we had a bit of a surprise on one applicant I'm not going to say. Which, that thought we were making up what character defining features were, and clearly I give you a little bit of guidance on that, but you as a commission need to get yourself smart about what are the features, especially of all of those eight or so different styles of buildings. Once you know that, you're not, like I say, I think you're on solid ground when people come in and ask to change a window out. Say there was a building that was Italianate, and it had 2 over 2 sashes everywhere on the whole house, which was pretty common for that style. And they wanted to replace it with a 6 over 6 colonial style window. You might say to that applicant, well, a distinguishing feature of that style is the 2 over 2 pattern. Pattern, can you match that, can you consider matching something? That's what I would say, and I'm going to just read, I think I have that access to that right here handy, so let me read what I'm sorry, you missed that last show, the last meeting, it was actually a pretty good conversation we had, but your ordinance says this rehabilitation work shall not destroy the distinguishing qualities, no character of the structures and its environment, that's what we just talked about, so you're being asked to make a determination about whether or not, about first of all, what the distinguishing qualities of that building are, and are they being affected? Are they being destroyed? One thing to understand what they are, if they're being highlighted or something and not being destroyed, that's a conversation that you can have at that time. But also character defining features as defined by the Secretary of the Interior, who we're oftentimes asked to consider. It says, quote, unquote, a prominent or character-defining feature is defined as a prominent or distinctive aspect, quality, or characteristic of a historic property that contributes significantly to its physical character. That's pretty easy to understand, I think. Structures, objects, vegetation, spatial relationships, views, use, furnishings, decorative details and materials may be such features, so I think you'd be well advised to take that information, put it into your definitions in the ordinance, do we have a section for definitions, I think we do, we can put one in, yeah, and I just think that'd be beneficial for you because you can then point to that when an applicant comes in and say yeah, we're actually using this information, so I don't know what else you Wanted to talk about, I think, when we get into as some of the buildings that we've been reviewing. One example was the 20 High Street project, you remember, where they took the, they took what was a profile, kind of an OG profile gutter off the building and just put up a flat board. That was clearly a change in the character of that, the building. So we talked a little bit about in that meeting about what makes up the cornice, you know, in a Greek Revival building it's really critical. There's a cornice and a freeze and what's called the architrave. Those are all separate pieces of that. If you get yourself smart about that, you can say on solid ground, I'm sorry, you can't take off that trim, that's the significant characteristic feature of that building. So beyond that, I don't know what else we need to talk about, but it's going to be the sort of thing that the more you can find Secretary of Interior support for those things, you can do some research on that. I think there is a preservation brief. If you know where the preservation briefs are, there's like 40 or 50 of those now. I think there is one on what you need to do to define character, you know, the character defining features, characteristics of the buildings. So it's what we see when we ride by and we look at buildings in the downtown and we see buildings of a certain period and built a certain way. It's really important to carry that story forward because it can be, it can be destroyed so quickly. And I think in the opening slide that I had, I showed you guys an example of a house that's been modified that had beautiful detail to it, was not protected, it was not in a district, and that may or may not have made a difference, but it's not the same house anymore and it'll be, it's lost forever. So these things are important in Bangor. We're so very fortunate, when everybody talks about the losses that we had in our renewal and they were significant, Bangor, we have a graphic I'll share with you someday that shows 135 buildings taken out since 1945 to the present, and some were replaced, you know, we did have to make some spaces downtown for larger buildings and other things to happen because the downtown was very crowded. So when you think about a Renewal and the losses that Bangor had, what we still have is still very potent architecturally, still, it's, it's really potent stuff. And I think the great fire, after the great fire, Bangor really rose to the occasion to really put back a city that first of all was more fire resistant, right, and that had some real potential, some real architectural significance. We went to get architects from all over the country, and especially from New York and Philadelphia and Boston, and you can look out your windows. The architect of this building was actually from Washington, in Washington DC, so architect across the street. I mean, we see a lot of work done by Wilfrid Manser, and his detailing on his buildings is very repetitive, so if you know what to look for, you can usually look at a building and say that's definitely a Wilfrid Manser building. But the one we reviewed tonight, Victor Hodgins, interesting story, Victor Hodgins, local architect, Bangor, actually from Hamden, and his daughter, granddaughter, Sue Mock, who some of you may know, Sue was on the commission with me in Hamden years ago. And she said that they would go to grandfather's architectural shop and they would take sponges and rags and they would wipe out all of the ink off of what was a linen drawing back then, wipe it off so he could use it for another drawing,, and that was kind of a crazy thing to do because now we have no, none of his drawings were protected, no record. Yeah, so she said they would wipe all the ink off, and linen was actually a very strong, you know, and very nice product. MDOT was using it up until like a decade ago, you know, for drawings. It's, it's better than Mylar, I think. Yeah, me too, and really beautiful and lays nice and flat, so they would wash those, all being gone. So anyway, his buildings, he did, he did the building, the more so in the Morse building over here, which is where the museum is, he did that building was one of his, he's done several in the downtown. But so again, character defining features are something that you're always going to probably carry forward in your reviews. It's a critical aspect you're being asked to make a determination on it at most every meeting, so and I'm here to answer anything that you might need in addition to that, so I think that was a good idea to do that, to have that conversation to [29:17] Ann Krieg: Have that, yeah, because we're, as you know, we're working on making improvements to the code, so it's good to get some direction on, you know, what will be most helpful. I think the other thing we can do is start is look a little bit more at our application to give more information about the secretary, how to access the secretary of the interior standards, so that, you know, the applicants know exactly what, because a lot of times they just look at the code and they're are not necessarily going to those standards at the at the federal website, so, or even refer them [29:57] Peter James Sachs: to the standards that the commission reviews by, right, somehow on here say please make some kind of a presentation relative to how you're meeting these right standards. Yes, that would be like a by step, yeah, like right or whatever, yeah. And we always ask for the zoning district, but maybe we should ask for the historic district or, yeah, which district are you in, historic district you're in, yeah, okay, all good. But so I think just looking back at the work the commission's done in the last few years, I think a lot of times window projects can be complicated, especially when they're representing a window, and I think we've been by on these discussions before, windows that change the characteristics of the size of the window, the frame is much bigger on certain windows, the sashes are much wider on some, she has to be sensitive to that, yeah. I think we [30:57] Katie Coe: picked that up on a few of these no I think this is a good idea because it's no guarantee that like right now I feel like we all either have a vested interest in historical homes or have a historical home ourselves yeah or went into it for our field of education so I mean I think that 's not always a guarantee for the board you know someone might just be like hey this looks fun and have absolutely zero idea about historical homes in maine so having this as a guideline is very [31:25] Speaker F (unidentified): important, yeah, quick, yeah, [31:32] Ann Krieg: because the other thing, I'm sorry, I'm thinking this about as you're talking, we, as you know, we send a letter out when there is a change of ownership sort of saying you're in historic district, but it would maybe we need to think about that letter about saying what district they're in and maybe even give some information about [31:57] Peter James Sachs: the significance of that particular district, you, and excuse me, we may also include maybe the karma forms, you remember those historic backup, that there's some great, yeah, replace [32:08] Katie Coe: Place, yes, it's out there, I think anything so to catch their eye, like you know how every time Mike talks about a building, he opens up with the history of the building first, right? Talk a little bit about like what makes it special, and if you, if you could, I don't know if that's possible, but like when someone has a home and be like, this is who made your home, or like this is the architect, this is what makes it special, you know, right? And I have a feeling that they would be more likely to read it and be interested in it, and then maybe read the other [32:38] Ann Krieg: stuff too, you know what I mean? Yeah, because I mean it's a whole new generation of buyers, you know, that you know may not know the significance of where they live, you know, if they're moving here from somewhere else, they may not know the significance of that neighborhood or, yeah, okay, we'll work on that at a staff level, yeah. [33:03] Nathaniel King: I almost wonder if maybe that we could use like a broken record the Portland thing, but to make it as a just like a presentation that's available on the city website, and so when you're getting these applications you say, you know, please check out, you know, the city of Bangor, it's just, you know, a city of Portland crossed out, Bangor written above it, you know, presentation on this, and it walks them through like historic homes, how to find those preservation briefs, here's examples of character defining features for Greek Revival, for Queen Anne, for, you know, modern or whatever, then the applicant can view that, can see that it lives on the website, and so if they have any questions they can kind of go back and look at it, and then it's like, you know, for additional questions, whatever, here's your contact, you can contact, you know, Ann or Anya or someone, and then, you know, kind of list some of those details out, because I mean I really thought that was really good that they did that, and they're giving that to like every applicant, it's like, why not just have that live on a link for the city or something? Can we get a copy? I've sent a copy to everyone, including you. Did you? Yes, it did, okay. I actually did it this time. The last like five meetings I had said I was going to do it, and then I finally remember to do it in March. Okay, great, yeah. But it's just because we're talking about these different features, and I think having a visual representation for folks, or even if it was, you know, I don't know. If we have a GIS story map or something for the different historic districts where we could talk about, you know, in the Great Fire District you see examples of A, B, C. Here's some of the character defining features. Click on a building to learn more about its character defining features. You click on, you know, 30 Central Street and see terracotta, blah, right? Yeah, that involves a little more work and a little more lift, but yeah, just starting with, I think even a PowerPoint, PDF, or something on the city website could be beneficial. I almost wonder too if for the next generation of Commission members, if we ought to not have some sort of a handout for commission members where we have some of your PowerPoint slides or maybe in there. And we say for reference material, you may want to look for, we list, you know, the field guide to American homes or, you know, whatever. That way we can have that in the first couple of meetings, we can go over that handout and talk about, you know, experience from our last projects. We can say, look, we've seen these issues with slate roofs. We've seen these issues with windows. We've seen this, so we've seen that. Here's how the commission worked on that, and here's how we looked at that within the regs, in addition to here's the fire hose of information on bangles historic districts and home types and all that good stuff, because you know, as it is right now, we just kind of show up for our first meeting, and by about the fifth meeting we've kind of got it down, but maybe having some sort of a handout that we can kind of modify year to year. [36:13] Rebecca Krupke: Is that, would that be useful? I think I would agree with your chair statement. [36:18] Nathaniel King: Not everyone's just got a background in this stuff. So I mean, yeah, okay. I'll also point out that Portland handout talks about archaeology, which is a really cool thing cities should take into account. And the other question I had, to you talk, you mentioned it very briefly in what you were talking about indirect effects. Effects, so are we, I know we're primarily looking at direct effects on these historic homes, so we're looking at that actual removal of something, replacing it with like or similar or best guess. Do we need to be, do we need to have some sort of thought or plan on any indirect effects to historic districts or historic structures? I'm thinking again this could be from point of ignorance. I don't know a lot about the city code outside of the historic preservation stuff, but if we have a specific view shed from the top of a historic home and somebody outside this historic district wants to put up something bigger in their backyard and it now has that indirect effect on that viewscape of that property. Does that fall within the review purview of the historic preservation commission does it not. So I know federally we have to consider the effects on landscape and view sheds you know I do that all the time and send those off for review to Shippo's office but I'm I'm thinking here more locally. These indirect effects and what are we you know I mean we're talking about talked about the vegetation and things like that just I know we I know our day-to-day is definitely the direct effects but well. [38:00] Peter James Sachs: I think in a viewshed issue Portland struggled with issues of people constructing above the existing rooftops in the downtown they were adding multiple stories sometimes getting right pulling those in back in to the interior of the building so that it wasn't as direct you know extending the line of the side up so they've struggled with that and they finally came up with some pretty good pointers about that sort of thing. We haven't seen much of that in Bangor I think they've been a couple of. Applications where they the client wanted to put a sitting area or something I think you've seen that a few times but those are relatively minor in impact you know they're visible yeah and so we've had applications where we said oh no this will never be visible from the sidewalk well guess what. [38:51] Nathaniel King: They are visible well and that's just kind of what I'm trying to get ahead of and think a little bit ahead of is we're not seeing it right now it doesn't mean we won't see it in the future. [39:01] Peter James Sachs: Exactly right you know yeah downtown properties become precious and expensive you want to get as much out of it as you can so these upper floors that are being added contribute significantly to their potential earnings. One thing I was just going to mention is that we've had a couple of applicants come in and we've done three. Just to sit down to say you understand what you're submitting you understand how this is going to go. Here's some potential issues and I think that's been helpful. [39:38] Ann Krieg: Yeah, I think that really helps when we can do that at a staff level with Mike there, and that way they're not surprised they come in. [39:47] Peter James Sachs: We didn't do it with this applicant, but we've done it with others. They're better versed about what they're expected to speak about. Why not? So yeah, I think that can be helpful. Yeah, one, I think that's something. Yeah. [40:02] Nathaniel King: That handout could also help out too, is you can sit down with them and be like, your home is, you know, federal style. Let's look at these examples of some features on the home. Thank you for providing the photos and the application. Let's talk about what I see as a professional or some of these character defining features, you know, so we can make sure we don't want to impact those or if you are, that we are trying to mitigate that loss of the feature somehow, right? Yeah, no, I think those meetings I think are great, right? Anything else you look go for the business for me? Okay, if there's no other business, what's, What's this [40:49] Speaker F (unidentified): Those are the butters that are notified. [41:00] Katie Coe: Okay. Yeah. Okay. [41:07] Nathaniel King: There's no other business. See if we can go ahead and adjourn this thing.