Bangor committee weighs data center moratorium, housing strategy

[1:12] Joseph Leonard: Okay, good evening everybody. Welcome to our regularly scheduled meeting of the business economic development committee for the city of Vancouver. I am the committee chair counselor Leonard. Other committee members are counselors, Maller, Carson balloon and fish. We also have around the table community economic director and creed. We also have Councilor Michael Beck, and we also have a Council Chair Sue Haas. First item on the agenda is going to be the planning overview of procedures and protocols. I believe, oh, here's the Army flag. [1:56] Robin Stanicki: Okay, so I'll try to do this real quick. Just to give you an overview of what's in the memo. For the planning board they basically have three functions and that is to help shape the comprehensive plan as the planning committee they review and make decisions on or not make decisions make recommendations on ability changes and then also review land development projects that's their biggest one of their biggest duties and so for the comprehensive plan that helps us shape development in the city it provides the guidelines for the policies and zoning that we want to set we have to do those Every 10 years and the state has a bunch of laws on that but our last one was done in 2022 for zone changes again that's just a recommendation to Council the process for that is it goes to first reading and then goes to planning work and then back involve another public hearing in your final decision if the planning board votes to recommend that something ought to pass it only requires you to have a simple majority to also pass that you do need a two-thirds majority to overturn a planning board Recommendation for noticing requirements generally we notify abutters for land development and zoning changes within 100 feet out from the property line if there is a larger Zone change that will affect that will either introduce a commercial property or take one away we have to follow some more extensive state noticing requirements and for conditional uses we have to notify 500 feet out so historic preservation works similarly as far as code changes because first reading commission and then Back to you for second reading and then they are also the authority on historic preservation applications so are there any questions yes Councilor Mellon [3:59] Wayne Mallar: Has the state historic preservation reviewed the changes that you wanted made? Not yet, but I'm going to follow up with them. So we really can't make a decision until after they've decided. Excited because you might lose your standing. Yes, we won't bring it back to you until we heard. [4:16] Susan Hawes: Yeah, definitely want to make sure we meet them. Any other questions or comments? Unless. [4:28] Joseph Leonard: Yeah, and there's no action on this, I so unless staff has anything else, we can move on to a policy discussion regarding data centers. I before we get into this, I just want to make it very clear this is not about Bangor going into an agreement for a data center. This is just us talking about what are the policies or ideas of how we want to approach this subject matter if it does come up. And if you like, or I'm sorry, Tanya, you still have a lot of research. [5:03] Robin Stanicki: So basically I'm sure you all have heard, you know, centers are really popping up all over the country, and they're causing quite a lot of issues with communities. They are being created in, especially when it comes to electricity rates, because they do use so much electricity, and then also water, they have very high water usage. In general, there are sometimes where they might have a different technology that they use less, but I that's not very commonly used right now. And so what a lot of communities. Are doing, they are trying to pass regulations to help address some of these issues and help address the impacts on their communities, and not just from water and electricity, but you know, just from a land use perspective. Some of these facilities are massive and can use a ton of land at one time, and in general they don't offer a lot of long-term jobs. They might offer some short-term construction jobs, but the long-term economic would benefit as minuscule compared to the impact they have on. Communities. So what we've laid out for you are a number of policies that we could apply to data centers. It's more of a menu rather than, you know, these are all recommendations, but there's many different things that we could do. You know, we could require them to generate their own energy on site or procure their own energy. Also have community benefit arrangements where they provide benefits for the community as far as green infrastructure, providing local hiring commitments, things like that, imposing noise limits at the property lines, restricting what they use for their generator fuel instead of diesel, which can generate a lot of noise and a lot of air pollution, maybe they use battery storage instead. And then as far as land use goes, currently, data centers just strictly according to our definitions, they would be allowed and pretty much all of our commercial and industrial zones. Currently, we don't really have any stipulations on this use. So they would just go through our regular land development permit process. And so because they would be allowed in zones like shopping personal service and general commercial service, that's our main commercial areas out near the mall and things like that, you know, they could potentially displace a use that could provide, you know, residential or mixed commercial residential or active commercial space that would really benefit the city, and then the other thing too is that we have this definition in our code called major essential service facilities and it's not very clear cut that would not include data centers and that use is allowed in other zones including some residential zones so we would want to make it very clear that use does not include data centers and I think we would want to draw out data centers on its own as a definition and potentially as I outlined here potentially look at our overlay relay district to pinpoint specific areas in the city that we would want to allow these. And then I just laid out some other potential land use restrictions that we would want there, having established height requirements, lot coverage and impervious surface ratios, and then also potentially making this a conditional use in certain zones, or we could do it in all zones. zones. And then there are some other options to that aren't land use related so much, but I have seen some places do things like establish a TIF district specific for data centers, and they'll actually assess data center equipment at a much higher rate, and then use that money for things like affordable housing. So just some really creative things that people are doing. But just because these regulations, they can be very complicated, and it could take us some time to do, we did just want to put out there the potential for, if you're amenable, staff could investigate the potential for a moratorium on these, just because we are so vulnerable at this point in time, and it would have such a big impact. I will say the state is also considering a bill that would also establish a moratorium and establish a working group to look at policy. However, we just found out that bill has been tabled, so you know, currently there's still this gaping hole in terms of vulnerability. So I wanted to put that out there for you all. I'm just looking for direction in terms of, you know, where you want to go with that, and are there particular, you know, policy choices in here and that really stick out to you that you would want to have? I'll save my comments for the end [10:05] Joseph Leonard: but questions or discussions, counselors. Fish. Thank you, council person. Can you describe a [10:12] Carolyn Fish: particular data center? I mean, I kind of visualize it, but I'd be interested to know, are there different types of data centers, and what's a typical data center, and the fact that they use so much water, my idea of a data center using water, could you explain? Yeah, definitely. [10:29] Robin Stanicki: Yes, there are different types of data centers, and I think in the past, you know, you're looking at maybe something like we have a telecommunications building over here. I think that it's like photo surfers when we store buildings. Those are the traditional types of data centers, but these new types of data centers are mainly used for AI, so their computing needs are much, higher. So therefore, they need a much, larger facility and their equipment, like most computer equipment, it heats up a lot, so it has to cool down, and so they use water to cool that equipment, and so when you have a ton of equipment, it's going to use a ton of water to cool that. It's through evaporative cooling, and I'm not sure, did I answer [11:12] Carolyn Fish: your, I'm sorry. So this, so I mean, the casino has like tons of electronic machines, it's that, I mean, I know it's different, they're gaming, but I can imagine that takes a lot of electricity and that takes a lot of resources. So in data centers, would we tax, I agree we have to address, you know, the zoning for it, but if, would this be a private company that would come in and we would tax the equipment, like I know when you have a business, I know I have to say if I bought a new computer and I got a new desk And I get taxed on that. Would they be taxed for that as well as the real estate? So you know, I guess I'd like to know the pros and cons, what kind of real estate tax, what kind of other income versus the downside of it, and of course applying you know zoning and regulations on it. But I'm just wanting a little more information I guess. [12:09] Robin Stanicki: Yeah, definitely, I definitely think it would be worthwhile to, we would have to very strictly define what a data center is that would be subject to these regulations, just so you're right, so we don't include things we don't intend to include. But these were just very general thoughts about where we might want to go for policy direction. [12:34] Daniel Carson: Yeah, thank you for a lot of the reasons that you've mentioned, and we've been in favor of a temporary moratorium on data centers that allow the city the time to really think through that question appropriately. In terms of the menu of potential regulations that you have here, I love all of them. And I really think we need all. I don't think data centers are something that we especially these AI ones that we can play around with. Where they have gone in all over the country, we do see electricity costs going through the roof, we see water utility costs going through the roof because often these utility companies then have to right make a new plan for how they're gonna execute infrastructure and all of the things that really should be delivered to ordinary everyday people in the city but instead are reserved for these massive centers. One thing that I do see that is missing at least in my perspective would be project labor agreements because the primary economic benefit of data centers are in their construction, or at least the benefit to workers are in their construction because that's when the most positions exist. I would like to see project labor agreements where those designed to benefit the workers who construct data centers so that in the construction, that their wages and benefits are not a race to the bottom, while the company that owns the data center will generate profits galore forever. And so I really would like to see you strict project labor agreements, union workers, you know, union construction workers, or if not union workers, prevailing wages that had been negotiated by, you know, regions so that workers are compensated fairly for this work. [14:34] Susan Faloon: Councilman, much of what I was going to say has already been said, but I would, I'll be in favor of like a moratorium, say for like six months, to give you time to work through all of this. And I, and I do think that what you've outlined here, yes, all of that, we have a need for all of that, especially, you know, having them either procure their own electricity or generate it, because yeah, we're, we're already seeing reports and, you know, like the cost of electricity is not [15:06] Susan Hawes: going down anytime soon. So any other questions or thoughts on this matter? Just a comment. Wasn't [15:16] Wayne Mallar: there a, an executive problem? Didn't the president decide that new IA centers had to produce their own electricity? Wasn't that an executive order? I do not recall. I believe so. I think that's a moot point as far as we're concerned on electricity. I don't know. I can't believe anyone, six months isn't going to make any difference to anyone that wants to build a plant here, because I'm sure we'd have already heard about it if they'd started [15:44] Joseph Leonard: it planning. So I don't have a problem. Okay, any other thoughts or questions? Yes, Councilman. [15:53] Susan Faloon: I was just gonna say there were some things that the president said in his State of the Union, but I don't, it wasn't super specific on data centers. There was something, I don't know if there was an executive order. Yeah, I think it was a little bit vague, so I think having our own [16:15] Joseph Leonard: would mean would still be warranted. Okay, I do have a lot of thoughts on this sample. I would actually also be in favor of a moratorium on these, just because there are, There's a lot of information that even some of the research and science that's in on some of these data centers regarding human health, for example, we're still getting feedback on how this affects individuals in their own communities. There are some individuals that live close to data centers that actually report like increased migraines or other related ailments to their bodies as well. So I think the zoning is going to have to, the zoning piece just on that alone has to take into account the human health and well-being. They do require energy, but what's more taxing than the energy is the actual grid that they use. Maine does not have a very strong grid. And because of that, I actually don't see this city as a viable option right now for having, for supporting a data center, unless they want to do some work in terms of having, providing support for our grid. We're just gonna risk having rolling blackouts potentially in the city just because the amount of energy that these data centers require for a old grid like ours, that would be actually very dangerous. And without getting too into the environmental aspects of this, and I'm just talking strictly on the value of water itself, these data centers, they're very new. AI is not going anywhere anytime soon. We're we're going to see more and more data centers coming out. What that means is that the overall value of water is going to increasingly go up in price. So whatever agreement we may get into a data center with right now would not be as viable as we would get into it say like two or three years down the road, because the value of fresh water, which is what's needed in centers, is going to get more and more rare to acquire that. And they can't even use like our wastewater treatment plant water, for example, which has a PFOS contaminants, and then they can't even use that because that would be an environmental issue, because as soon as those PFOS contaminated waters get hit with the large amounts of heat, they just get exposed into the air and they'll have a, you'll see foam coming out. So it's just there's a lot of issues with these overall that I don't really see the full short-term or even long-term benefit in them right now. But and I'm happy to Anya email some of these to you as well, but these are just my basic requirements of like if we were to entertain a data center. They need to have full infrastructure cost responsibility, an independent energy assessment, and no fossil fuel infrastructure related to that whatsoever. Absolutely ban potable water usage. I would rather have this getting a bit too into the weeds. I won't go full into it, but I there would have to be noise restrictions on these things because you can get super loud. Visual buffers, we're not ready for a data center. We are absolutely not ready. And if one were to come forward to council in a private executive session, I would immensely not recommend going forward with that. It's it's not to our benefit. That's that's my take on that. Does anyone have any other thoughts or comments on this particular subject matter? Anything else from staff? Okay [20:40] Susan Hawes: well let's move on to oh please for direction because it sounds like [20:47] Susan Faloon: there's favor for a moratorium and also favor for us to use that time to do more research for [20:55] Joseph Leonard: of course oh yes did you guys need a time on that moratorium well we have to we're just [21:06] Robin Stanicki: going to make sure that you know that's allowable for us to do we just wanted to get your feeling that 's the direction you want to go in we'll investigate legality and everything and then come [21:16] Joseph Leonard: back to you with that. Okay, so I'm fine with that. Is committee okay with that? It's okay. Thank you, Manager. There okay. On to the housing data overview. [21:29] Robin Stanicki: So this was just to give you some updated statistics on our housing unit numbers for the past few years. We have been updating housing progress web page with housing unit numbers and I'm afraid that I didn't actually print out my housing unit numbers. I will say, oh one, thank you. We have seen an increase in the number of completed dwelling units. That also means certificates of occupancy issued, so that means we've seen an increase in that over the last few fiscal years and then also dwelling units permitted via building permits. We've seen a pretty big increase in that too from 61 and fiscal year 23 to 162 into 25. So that's been good to see. As far as planning board approved projects, some projects that are shown on that housing progress webpage like the tiny home park on Albert Hammond Street, the Lancaster project, those have been completed now, so those homes are now up and running. And then we do have some that were recently approved by the board like another tiny home project on Push Off 30, portable housing units on Kanduska App, those have been done recently and there's more than that to and then as far as projects that staff have been working on, we do, I know Ann mentioned that in your last meeting, I believe there's a site plan application pending for the Grandview App project and then also the pre-approved building plans, those are complete now and have been requested by constituents, which is really great to see. And then as far as current projects we are working on, as you know, the zoning updates to comply with the state laws related to housing and wider land development code and then we do also have some pending projects potentially. [23:23] Joseph Leonard: Questions or comments? I just wanted to commend staff, like really awesome job. There's a lot of action going in place and actually I did have one question on that on the duplex. So well, it's more so just a nitpicky question. It's like what type of permit allows for staff level approval versus what needs to go to the planning board basically. [23:59] Robin Stanicki: So staff level approval, that's just a minor site planner vision, that would be for very minor changes. When I say staff review here, what I mean is any project that comes to go before the planning board, staff review it first to make sure that they meet all the code requirements, and then once it's complete, we'll send it to the planning board for their approval. And so that's most projects that happen in the city, like projects like that housing [24:25] Joseph Leonard: projects and larger commercial developments. Okay, so it's more like a, just, it sounds like it's more so a precursor before going to planning board. Typically, yes. Okay, that was my only question. Does anyone have anything else on this matter? Okay, moving on. So we have a housing strategy, section 108 loan program, CDBG. I am going to assume Miss Stenicky is going to be [25:00] Susan Hawes: Yes, hi. [25:09] Robin Stanicki: I'm Robin Stanicki, I'm the community development officer, and I have brought this memo to you as promised, that we are working through our consolidated plan. So at the end of last year, we talked about a really comprehensive needs assessment which dived into data related to housing, different community needs, social determinants of health, and then the next part of that is where we come back to you and we say, well, what are we going to do about it? So this outline that I've given you in this, the strategy, is available to you all. Anne and I thought that it would be a good idea to suggest to you that perhaps that pre-council workshop you can kind of dig into that a little bit more, but I'm just going to go and kind of give you a high level overview, and please, if you have specific questions, let me know. So what we're trying to do is look at the frames of housing across income levels and household types. You'll notice that a lot of the strategy really underscores housing, and that's because what we really learned from the needs assessment and what everyone was saying in the community about what the priority was, they, you know, everything is interconnected, and of course we know that, you know, everything kind of drills back down to the, you know, the housing first sort of mentality. So we talk a little bit about housing production, but we also go into a little bit of housing preservation, because in the city of Bangor, what we do know is it's not just enough to say we're going to get new units online, we're really also Talking about the disinvestment in housing and how much housing is, you know, vacant is placarded, you know, and we could really be building on our units if we actually know what the state of our units actually are. We also talk a little bit about how to align our zoning, some of our public investment infrastructure, and other tools that we can use for the process to be able to accelerate those housing outcomes. And then we also talk about what its implication is for homelessness, you know, the permanent housing in all of its different forms, and how this really has accelerated and exacerbated the homelessness crisis. And then we also talk about, well, if we're going to do all of these really big things, how can we remain accountable and moving forward and keeping sort of a long continuum of a 5, 10, 15 year effort and continually moving these benchmarks toward these goals. So in the actual strategy, we begin with a summary of the regulatory and program accomplishments that we have done over the last five years. And some of them you heard in Anne's last update regarding some of those zoning changes and other things that we've are suggesting in the land use code. We're all, we also put together the principled framework, which actually goes back to the evaluative framework that we talked about last year, where we're looking at the different community capitals. So what really anchors ourself when we're saying, okay, we're gonna build this, what's really important and what we've learned. We also talk about the overarching goals and that is displayed in the plan as benchmarks and targets. So we're thinking about action statements, like we're going to increase something, we're going to decrease something, and then how are we going to get there with different programmatic approaches. And then we're also thinking about it in terms of, okay, if this is placed here in the housing strategic plan, where does it also show up in our comprehensive plan, where does it also show up in everything else, because we've got lots of plans and studies and plans of plans, and we just want to make sure that Everybody is at the same table talking about the same thing and measuring it the same way. So it's really important. Then we also to go into a little bit of detail about those benchmark sections. We are talking about housing production. We're talking about the affordability of that housing. We're talking about the typology, like do we need more one bedroom in studios? We do, you know. And what are those other types like permanent supportive housing. We're also talking about rehabbing existing housing. It can't be underscored how much how far we can get in housing production and preservation if we're talking about the little duplex versus you know how many years it takes to get a larger project. We do go into talking about permanent supportive housing and other solutions to homelessness as it relates to what are the what are the categorical needs of the populations that need to live together in a certain sense to live in different places of the city. And then of course, we go into a little bit of the regulatory reform that's required, because we know that we want to keep that ball rolling. And then one really important piece and that I also want to touch on today is the incentives and financial leverage. It's really something that we of course we all know that we're trying to do more with less and trying to be creative about how we're going to fund housing, how we're going to get to you know if we're talking about housing bond this and loans that like where how do we stack those things together so it seems really intentional and we're not just sort of saying let's get what we can and like kind of shoveling it in the middle. And so like, how can we really build something? And then, as I mentioned, it's really important that as we continue to develop and deploy these resources, that there is some measure of let's come back, let's figure out where we are in those benchmarks, let's have annual reports and things like that. And we do have a lot of really good infrastructure in place for that. that. So I think we're in, we're in alignment there. So the strategy goes from that sort of set up to lead into an implementation section. So how are we going to actually do this? We'll talk about brass tacks. So first, we talk about citywide implementation strategy, so everything that can be done no matter where it is in the city. And then we focus on the neighborhood place-based geographical area. And this is something that the city of Bangor has done before. We have had a neighborhood revitalization strategy area, probably for the last 15 years. And they've been in different areas of the city, but essentially it's a nice little, there's several census tracts that we would focus on and say, if we were going to intensify our effort in a specific area of the city, where would that be? Why would we do it there? And what would we do in that area? So we kind of outline what our proposal would be. And that strategy document, neighborhood, the nurses strategy document would sit together with the remaining consolidated plan, and we would submit all of those together to HUD. Technically they are independent documents, but we're gonna push them all out together for them. So they'll evaluate them together for us. So of those two implementation approaches, we have three that are sort of outlined specifically. Now, the first one is housing production. That's pretty self-explanatory. And then we have number two, the financing section, and then like I said, the nurses strategy is a standalone section. So what I'm hoping to do, actually before I do, should I pause there and just make sure everyone, I know I'm talking fast, but that's good. Okay, so sorry about that, I'm excited about this. I've lived, I've been pickled in this for like almost a year. So for our financing strategy, we're trying to tee up something that gives the city of Bangor as many resources that it, you know, can use well. And so one of the big ones is called the Section 108 Loan Guarantee Program. And that basically says that the city of Bangalore, because we participate in the Community Development Block Grant Program, we're already at the front of the line to be able to access low, like very affordable capital for developers. We're basically, we can decide what the projects are. We can decide who gets that funding. We can decide where, you know, the full breadth and depth of that project, and what that does for developers is they're able to get cheap capital, which is what we're hearing right now, that developers, the money isn't coming quickly enough, and that the projects won't pencil out because their debt service, the rent that they're pulling in, won't cover the debt service. So in order for something to move, they really need to have access to cheap capital. And what that has historically looked like is they've gotten subsidy. They'll get straight out grants, and other types of financial arrangements. And what I heard that surprised me was that very often that can upset their capital stack if it's a straight out grant. And I was so surprised when I learned, oh, so it can't be a straight out grant. They want to see the debt service ratio in there because it actually helps those who develop affordable housing. So I'm definitely learning about that. But the truth of it remains is that having an inflow of capital that we don't have right now is one option that we can have through the CDBG program. program. So what we would do is we would develop a proposal, we would send it up to HUD, and we'd say we would like to use our CDBG program to access a certain amount of capital. We can take up to five times our CDBG amount, and we can say we'd like to hold this for a project that we vet, approve, administer, and oversee. And then we can take that capital, put dedicated to that project, and it's money that developer doesn't have, and it's money that we don't really have to put toward that right now, right, and so basically the risk shifts to being able to be able to, I guess you could say, we could have our results now versus waiting every single year to put a little bit of CDBG money aside a little until it kind of builds up, and then we can kind of put it toward that project, we can have it now, sort of payday loan-ish. I guess you could say, you know what I mean, like you can have it now and then you kind of pay it back incrementally, by doing that you have the ability to work with a developer now, get those incentives in place now, and be able to maybe put together a program for those little one and two units, do some infill housing, do something that's very intentional within a neighborhood, and move the needle on some of these things, but without that resource we're still, we have, we have, you know, right now, which is. You know, are we going to be talking, you know, other types of like housing bonds and those types of things here is something else that we can have in our arsenal, so you don't have to make a decision tonight about where that money goes or anything like that, but what we're really hoping you'll allow me to do is start the process of building a proposal because it can be pretty labor intensive. And I just want to make sure that 's the direction you'd like to go in before we start putting that package together. Yes, so that was pretty much so the next steps that I have for this whole strategy is we can talk about it in more detail. I'd like to finalize the benchmarks and those implement, implementation tools including the section 108 program, and then we really want to make sure that we go back in and align those regulatory, financial, and staffing actions with those targets if they've moved at all, and then the next thing we need to do is we need to go out to the public with the plan and say, you know, to agencies, the real estate community, the housing developer community, landlords, you know, what have we built that speaks to you what have we missed, and then after that we will come back and say here's, here's the final or the almost final plan. Questions [40:06] Joseph Leonard: or comments? Yes, counselor Beck. So this may be a little bit [40:09] Michael Beck: bigger than what you're asking for, but my eyes just got real big looking through this because we're in the process of trying to make a housing committee, and part of that is trying to figure out, you know, what benchmarks that we're looking for them to look at, reporting and things, and I'm reading through this laundry list, I'm thinking, wow, this would be great to have on a city-wide scale, not just CDBG. I don't know, I guess what my question is, how can we make this, if we wanted to plug into a housing committee, or how does it all work? Because I don't want to put together a committee that's just going to reinvent the wheel when staff's already working so hard on pulling this together, and you already have a lot of that information and a strategy. Can this be scaled past CDBG to be a city-wide strategy that either works with the housing committee, or do we even need a housing committee if we've already got a strategy in the works? I guess I just want some of your thoughts on that. [41:08] Robin Stanicki: So it actually is a strategy that already, when you do a consolidated plan, you're really supposed to transcend the amount of money that you would get in CDBG allocations to say how does this articulate an intention to address the issues of housing and community development. So yes, the CDBG allocation that the city of Bangor receives needs is put to those things but everything that we spend money on housing and community development we should take credit for not credit it might not be the right word but it all unfolds into that so it absolutely is a strategy for the entire city and could help to inform the way that we would invest any money from any source does that make sense it does so i guess the question is we're [42:05] Michael Beck: forming this committee then how do we make sure that they your department plugged into it well [42:13] Susan Faloon: i mean a lot of this work is the work that you've already done through the comprehensive plan and the housing implementation plan that you did most recently so this is all being carried forward so i think a lot of this work can sort of cut and paste into the committee as a framework yeah i mean [42:36] Robin Stanicki: it's it you own it all so you can do with it how you will eventually [42:44] Joseph Leonard: i'm percolating go ahead okay [42:47] Carolyn Fish: i think that it's a major component but i think there's other types of housing in the private sector so it would be a major component along with the comprehensive plan and partner but there's also a lot more opportunities with the private sector and investors so it's not the whole answer but it's it's a very important part of the whole housing components. Right. [43:27] Robin Stanicki: That's important. And I'm hoping that when you look at the strategy that you and folks in the private sector in development, but also real estate, can look at this and say, am I missing something? Because we've really tried. We've had lots of meetings with the community that this is their expertise. And so this is kind of what we spit out. but over the next couple of months with engagement we're hoping to make sure that it responds to everything that everyone is seeing I thought I did hear [44:02] Carolyn Fish: the other day I can't remember it was from one report I think from a commercial bank or nice and I don't see it and I talked to some of my real realtor friends I don't know if you see it but he said there was a great need [44:14] Robin Stanicki: For three bedrooms, do you think that kind of surprised me? I definitely have reported out on the need for studios and one bedrooms. I'm not sure about three bedrooms, maybe in a specific geographical area, that makes me curious. [44:35] Joseph Leonard: Thank you. Any other thoughts or questions? You were looking for a proposal, I'm sorry, do you have a? [44:46] Daniel Carson: I was just going to move that we allow Robin to get moving on the Section 1 and late program. [44:55] Robin Stanicki: Did to move forward with the proposal? Yes, so we're asking if we can prepare that proposal, and then also I think I had mentioned at the beginning that, you know, I can provide the full strategy document. It's just, it was just very, big and cumbersome to be on the full agenda here tonight, but like next week, you could really chew it. [45:26] Joseph Leonard: I think most of the councils are attacking the doctor. [45:29] Robin Stanicki: No, I understand, sure. [45:34] Joseph Leonard: So we do have a motion. Do we have a second? Second. Second, okay. Are there any questions or discussion question regarding this matter? Is it in doubt? Seeing none, you can move forward. All right, next up, as I scroll up here, we go, the long-term rental program overview is sort of [46:05] Susan Faloon: Awesome, okay, another big one, I know, I'll know, yeah, if we need more time we can always put it [46:12] Robin Stanicki: I don't know if you should just read the email or you've read the memo. I'll just dance around it, and if you decide that you have questions, so for some of you I put a little bit of background here. So two years ago we decided, hey, we want this thing. Really what folks were interested in is how to make sure that we have safe and decent housing. The issue of inspections, periodic inspections came up and, you know, what does it look like in the constellation of other towns that were coming up with their own rental registry. So we decided, let's do a two year pilot where we had specific goals. We wanted to test the registration process and format. We wanted to really build inroads with trust with tenants and landlords. There was lots of discussion about that. And then we wanted to also design certain benefits and incentives that would help to bring more landlords into participation, help tenants kind of understand and be able to give their own feedback as well. And so what we came up with was specifically the rental registry itself is a computer program. So you can go online and you can do your rental registry. It operates separately and distinct than the short-term rental registry. So, I should say that they're both completely different systems. And then what we also did was we designed certain services and benefits that landlords could participate in, namely they asked for low-cost rehabilitation funding. They were concerned about and wanted protection against theft and property damage. And then arising out of that, or because of that, tenant support services aimed at reducing evictions and vacancies, but then also to mitigate the risk of landlords who were, you know, taking a chance on certain landlords. Good. So what we found that one of the biggest challenges, of course, was the allocation of resources. We really felt that had we been able to do more rehabilitation for sprinkler systems, we could have made, you know, some headway in that regard. And I think as a result of some of that decreased increased activity, we were only able to complete our registry with known data and not necessarily that you know Joe as a duplex on Center Street, it was we know that Joe is duplex on Center Street because the because the assessor tells us that, but not necessarily because we know we can call up Joe about his duplex because there's a problem there right so we wanted to be able to have that kind of you know level data where we knew that Joe's duplex on Center Street is handicap accessible and there might be someone that's living there that might need help getting out of their building in a fire like so there was lots of different ways that we could have just a short conversation with Joe what is duplex. So it is our hope that we are going to get there with a permanent rental registry. So the final thing that I offered in this memo was just how if we were going to move forward at the end of this pilot with a permanent rental registry, what would be some things that you'd want to consider? Consider and so I kind of put a little like this is our lessons learned specifically that you might use to kind of codify that in a permanent or ordinance so and I'm happy to go into any of [50:10] Joseph Leonard: These things in more detail with a follow-up report if needed. Any feedback for Robin or Ann on this? Any questions, comments? It was fairly straightforward. I mean, I'm sure I would like to delve more into this in the future at some point, but obviously to take all the time that you need for that next follow-up. Oh yes, Councilor Fish. [50:42] Carolyn Fish: I think that everyone loves this in a smart way because I know that people that own apartments and landlords really wasn't crazy about this, so I think establishing a relationship and incentives maybe very good. I know you'd probably like to be falling out from around there yet, especially since the state legislative just came up with one and there was a huge negative outburst from the landlords even locally, so I see the need for it, but I think if that's inferior sort of say, we might lose some of the momentum in the corporation we have. So reaching out to them in the way that you've been doing it or it's been going positive, even though it's taken longer, I think in the long run, you're going to be much more successful. [51:37] Robin Stanicki: Schools you just reminded me of something that I would want to plug is that we are having an additional landlord engagement session on the 12th in the library because we want to go back and say hey how are we doing and kind of get another layer of that feedback, so we're going to be doing [51:59] Michael Beck: that. Just thank you Council Beck. Yeah, well I'm glad to see this because this was the number one recommendation of the 2019 was to do a long-term rental registry and you know it's been a couple years. I think maybe it's time to take the train wheels off and do this, you know, as far as momentum goes. I mean, it's the law, just comply with the law, that's that's all there is to it. If we pass this and then just [52:26] Robin Stanicki: comply with the law. Well the state legislative context that you also bring up, one thing that I did hear from landlords is that if they had to either choose between registering on a state website whether it's Main Housing or whatever other avenue or talking to city staff, that they would prefer a local solution, so that's something that we did here. But again, those conversations are still, you know, public view, they're still pretty new for folks learning about them. [53:12] Joseph Leonard: Unless there's any other questions or feedback on that. And do you have enough time for directors update? Or do you want to kick that? [53:21] Susan Faloon: Yeah, all I was gonna say is, you know, I'd like to give you reports when they come out, statewide reports on main economy, so I just put that in here. It there is a survey on the main development foundation website, so if you want to weigh in on it, you can do it right on there, right on their website. So and in two weeks I'm going to the Urban Land Institute's conference on housing in Baltimore, and there's going to be a focus on unhoused populations and, you know, different [53:54] Susan Hawes: different housing stocks. So I'm excited about that. [53:57] Susan Faloon: That's all I got. And then we have two executive sessions. [54:01] Joseph Leonard: Unless there's any questions for Ann on her updates. I will entertain a motion to go into executive session. [54:10] Daniel Carson: Go into executive session pursuant to one MRSA section 4056C. [54:17] Joseph Leonard: I'm just going to throw the property right now. Do I have a second? Roll call vote. Councillor Malloy, yes. Councillor Carson, yes. Council Plume, yeah. Councillor Fish, and I am. Again, we are in executive session, executive session, and we have some motions that are going being made on the table. Yeah, chair, I'd like to move that [1:05:33] Daniel Carson: we authorize the city manager or designate to grant developer collaborative under the 20-day extension, just you know [1:05:42] Joseph Leonard: the development and accompanying pro forma for the grant. All right, we have a motion. Do we have a second? Moved and seconded. Discussion. Doubts that's going to move on. Do we have another [1:05:59] Carolyn Fish: motion? I make a motion that we forward to counsel on the approval of the sale [1:06:06] Susan Hawes: of 240 Grove Street council approval. Moved and seconded. Discussion. Any [1:06:17] Joseph Leonard: doubts that will also move on. All right, unless there's anything else anyone wants to bring up, I will adjourn this session.