Knox County approves airport plan, tables reappointments, discusses administrator search

[0:35] October regular meeting of the ordered [0:42] if you don't mind I'll skip over the commission's updates then public is there any members public address [0:56] good day everyone [0:59] Fine. I looked at the agenda today and it appears that Thomas Laurent is applying for reappoint the next county board of assessment review. I would like to make public comment in opposition to his reappoint and I encourage the commission [1:20] to to further look into just his prior service on different boards and committees and how different members of the public have really been harmed by some of his decisions. I won't go into further detail with that. You have two reappoints. [1:40] one I can make no comments on Thomas. I host as member of the public. It's all right. Thank you. [1:55] What else would you please? [2:02] Seeing as there's none, we'll move on to the next item, which if no one minds, we have a presentation from the [2:12] chair of the main county commissioners association Kushing. [2:17] Thank you for chairman, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for giving me a few minutes. I wanted to share few things that are happening at the association level. for the record, I'm Andre Kushing. I am a commissioner of Costa County and serving again this year as the president and I made a commitment I would visit each county at least once during the year and so I'm making that trip again. [2:40] we had our convention at Sunday River about 3 weeks ago. Another successful year we had about 150 to 160 attendees. We had approximately 30 exhibitors there. We did 12 panels that covered everything from energy and track to paid family leave [3:00] building construction where we've brought in people to talk about areas that you as commissioners sometimes are not as fluid in that can give you some understanding of the issues that may impact your communities or may impact the operations of your county. [3:20] we've specifically tried to focus in the last year on things related to fiscal matters because there have been some growing challenges for some counties with their funding mechanisms or getting their audits done in a timely manner. we also found that several counties are now looking at or may look at direction of new facilities for renovation of current facilities. [3:45] So, the building panel was to give folks an understanding of some of the timelines you may want to look at. the convention also was financially successful again. last year we netted about $53,000 and were able to put most of that in our reserve funds. This year we will probably fall in a similar manner. [4:07] So we'll have in place of approximately 150 in reserve. One of the areas that I am recommending that the association look at is to develop an executive director position. Again, we made the option four years ago to go with a lobbying firm which has been helpful to us, but there are aspects [4:32] of promoting county government and organizing our resources where I think we need another person that has the ability to be a voice and face for the organization. The board will take this up tomorrow and discuss it and I hope that by November we will have a vote so the budget committee can complete their work based upon what their recommendations [4:57] called the association is. We come in at a good time where we would in essence have a year's worth of resources if necessary if we did no other activities during the year to fund that position. The goal of my candidate up to the board to decide this is do we continue to generate revenues outside of county [5:20] dues to supplement that position so that we're not putting forward burden property taxpayer. I think that's a healthy part of the discussion as in the position. Another component of that which is the memo I've shared with you today is the concept of developing an organization that is a county organization not just the commissioners. [5:42] I would foresee the potential for each organization be it those that are currently in place such as EED and the 911 and emergency management and managers and administrators maintaining their own segment but having an executive director of a association of counties which is how most other states operate [6:03] through some different groups I've traveled to about half a dozen states and it provides better resources to our county partner organizations to have one organization for an umbrella for all of those different groups. we are also looking at next year's schedule. You'll see on your desk a little save the date reminder that our convention has been booked. [6:27] I'm looking for approval tomorrow from the board to go with the proposal from the University of Maine, but it will be somewhat unique, but they now have a 95 room hotel on campus in Berlin. and I've had the privilege of going there on Nuke's visits as a legislator and a local official to see the amazing things that our flagship university does. [6:52] Their composite center, the reenter center, the new fieldhouse, I think would be a great opportunity for us to get together, be on a location that could be very enjoyable and also informative to our commissioners and their staff. So, that will be coming up. We also have been doing in-person meetings each year. [7:13] Some of you have been able to attend. We do the annual meeting in January and then we've had three other meetings during the year besides convention where we've gone to a county. We've tried to rotate around and we've gotten to 10 of the counties so far in the last two years and hope to cover the rest. I spoke to your chair at lunch and asked him if perhaps [7:36] Knox County would host one of those and sure he'll bring it to your attention, but we'd be delighted to come down. We're looking at May, July, and December, as well as the January annual meeting, which we're setting the details for now. So, there are three other opportunities. I would be happy at this point to take any questions if you might have something that I couldn't try and address. [8:02] I have a question. how does the how did you raise funds at the convention? Where did the funds come from that you raised? So we have the exhibitor tables and then we also offered sponsorships some of which the higher levels were able to make a presentation at one of the panels. [8:22] so we structured it so that the registration remained low because our objective is to make it affordable for the counties to send as many folks as you can. commissioners historically have tried to come but your administrators are valuable because they engage with each other [8:44] network. They hold their meeting there for the month. the registry of deeds organization has been holding their meetings there the last couple of years. It gives them a place with only 16 counties you can imagine it can get a little lonely. So for these folks to get together and engage or are helpful and what's interesting is [9:04] how many of us even though we may work in the same building or the same communities don't always get to engage and get to know folks. So the sponsorships were probably about that and the exhibitors probably about 80 90% of the revenue. Then we have registration dollars that come in. [9:25] and we did a golf tournament again this year which generated a little bit of money and then finally we do a silent auction on the awards night that generates some additional. [9:39] Yeah. I was curious because I remember that the location was somewhat expensive to attend for people and especially in Knox County last year budget concerns and with what's going on in the world, you know, justifying expending kind of expenses like that is hard to hard to justify. [10:01] I certainly understand and I'm sensitive to that. I look at it if we can provide quality training of some nature for the different departments then there's a value added component. Some of your departments as you know require continuing education or updated training. Right now, your 911 departments typically hold their own standalone meeting during the year and they bring in some top trainers on different things related to that [10:31] that profession and they are required I believe to get I think it's 24 continuing ed during the course of their certification. So we would engage in conversations with them about possibly incorporating their meeting into what we do at convention [10:53] and then it could provide a more well-rounded experience for those folks as well as maintaining the training modules that they would need. We typically do a two-day event and and then Friday we have tried to do some activities that also [11:13] provide value but we recognize taking three days out of someone's work week can be tough for many folks. But we're certainly open to what we can do to strengthen those relationships and generate the revenue that do not put the burden on the property tax. [11:38] Great. I thank you for your time. I I enjoyed having lunch with Ed today and going over a few of these things beforehand. You have my number, so you're welcome to give me a call if there's something that comes up. So, we will have a December that will be held in Hancock County. They have a new EOC building and that will be the second Wednesday of the month in person. [11:59] And I will likely try to do a evening holiday reception the night before that Tuesday night for those who are coming in staying overnight. There are some newer hotels in Ellsworth and we may also be able to negotiate a tour at Jackson Labs. They have a mouse house there at Ellsworth. [12:21] Now that is a fascinating experience. So certainly hope you can put that on your agenda and consider joining us for the the year end of this. [12:32] What's the what's the date of that? December [12:35] that would be December the 2nd Wednesday of December [12:44] 9th. [12:45] You are correct. Yes. [12:49] Oh, actually, no. We may have to go to the 16th that week. Now, I think there's a conflict on the 9th. So, let me confirm the theme back to you if you don't mind. [13:02] That December is one of those months that gets a little crazy [13:05] once we get towards that part of the year. [13:08] Understood. Understood. Thank you again. [13:12] Appreciate it. I apologize. I can't stay. I have committed to being sag for their meeting [13:20] down in this wonderful weather. [13:22] Well, it's always good to see the tip of the park today. [13:27] Thank you. [13:34] Let's go back up to commissioner updates. Any updates they would like to go there? [13:40] We've been working chair and the people on the negotiations the deputies are getting closer to hope to some sort of resolution on that and that's coming up being changed till next week correct so then next week and [14:02] interesting interesting negotiations [14:10] trying to think of I know I've done other things I just can't place them at the moment the only update that I have is that Saget County has approved the contract to work with Verilina on the Two Bridges Jail Authority [14:31] partnership facilitation. So that's two out of three counties and I hope to hear from Lincoln County soon. I think they also have a meeting today. So hopefully we will have approval from Lincoln County as well and we'll be able to move forward with certain things. [14:50] Great. I have nothing to share. Andre just shared it all. Was it was it a bad [14:58] Oh, wait. I didn't want to [15:03] be a shill for a particular cabin. Any place to eat lunch in one of them is [15:13] and then we have routine business. [15:20] we have this agenda and non-aggenda items are only permitted in an emergency of nature and the department head reports payroll and expense warrants and reserve withdrawal. Do I have a motion? [15:36] Second. Any discussion? [15:44] Seeing as there's none, all those in favor? Three in favor, none opposed. Action item. The first one we have is approval for building maintenance for 62 Union Street Rock main, $16,270 [15:59] which is 50% of the cost of the tank removal and $10,000 for roof bid overage. We have a motion [16:10] second. [16:12] And any discussion? [16:15] Would anybody like to [16:17] I guess I can speak to it and Jim can already. we've talked about these two projects at a couple of different meetings and at this particular time, neither project can be fully absorbed within the departmental budget. So, this is bringing it forward to you to gain approval that the budget may run over. [16:38] the cost for the tank removal was something that we're required to do based on our contract with the state that we are required to pay 50% of that cost. And the bid overage we thought we had some we thought we budgeted enough going into 26 but the bids came in higher and it's a project that we cannot push off to 27. [17:02] The other 50% of the paint removal is the state is paying. [17:07] Yes. [17:10] need a good roof over a hitch. You're correct. [17:13] Nothing you can do about that. [17:17] This somewhat validates the need to have reserve accounts for situations that pop up like this. [17:24] Just to clarify, this comes from the department's reserve accounts in both cases. or does this go if they don't have enough money to go to the undesated funds? [17:38] There is very little in the building maintenance reserve account to help to fund some of this. So, it will be applied to the department budget which will most likely cause the department budget to be over a year end. [17:56] Any other discussion? [17:59] question. [18:02] No. So, [18:05] if that's the case, call the vote. All those in favor? [18:10] Green in favor? None oppose. next action item is an act to authorize the chair to execute the supplemental lease agreement between LS County and the United States of America. [18:24] do I have a motion? [18:27] Second. going to move the second. Any discussion? Oh, [18:34] sounds fancy in the name of the United States. [18:39] and this is one that we have with the FAA. This contract just allows them to own and operate and to maintain the navigation that we have. this is a contract that has already been in place for decades. It's just an extension of that contract decades. How long is extension for? I believe this is a 23. [19:01] You have to bring it up again. [19:02] Yeah. [19:08] Is there any money involved [19:11] allowing them to own equipment and operate equipment? [19:16] Do they need to maintain this or [19:20] Yes. So they come out and they do routine take off and some [19:27] the majority of their [19:33] discussion the question if not all those in favor in favor [19:42] the next item is [19:46] an act to approve chapter four of the airport master plan. [19:54] So, I have a presentation. [19:56] Oh, [20:00] and I combined chapters four and five for you. [20:07] So, my name is Amy. I'm an aviation planner consult. Can everybody see screen? [20:17] All right. So, this is participation on chapters four and five. You know what I'm going to consider is [20:23] you want to slide down [20:29] so we have already gone to the AP pack and presented chapters four and five. so we have from the AP pack a preferred alternative. So today I'm going to present you the facility requirements that meet the preferred alternative that the AP pack has approved. [20:46] So these are the factors shaping the recommendations. the planning period is 20 years. So 2045 is the end of the planning period. C2 that is the new updated airport and runway 1331 reference code that's based on the critical design aircraft which is the Hawker 800. That's the new critical design aircraft [21:06] and that pertains to an aircraft approach speed is which is C and then the wingspan which is two. And that's an upgrade from the last runway reference code which was B2. So the wingspan staying the same. The approach speed has increased a little bit which is the update to C. And then the taxiway design group is 2A. [21:27] and that is the same as the last taxiway design code as well. and I do want to mention the master plan does just identify future needs and a recommended development path. But when you get to the ind individual projects, they actually do go through the FA coordination design phase one environmental. [21:47] So the first facility requirement is the runway 1331 safety area. The future C2 standards do increase the runway safety area and runway object free area length requirements. It goes from 600 ft in length to 1,000 ft in length. the runway 31N does have room to fit that within the fence line, but the runway 31N is constrained u by defense [22:11] in the roadways beyond. So the APAC has voted on and I know you can't read that slide. I have a bigger picture of it on the next slide. they voted on declared distances to address the runway safety area and the runway object free area requirements. So the planning level evaluation is to use 225 ft of pavement of the runway to account for a portion of the safety area and then you can fit the remaining safety area within the fence line. [22:38] The localizer is an unknown at this point. The FAA is going to do a runway safety area determination at the end of the master plan. They're going to review it. So we're hoping that the localizer can stay within the runway safety area on franchable mounts. If not, they may ask the airport to update the declared distances to account for that. [22:58] It will be negligible. It shouldn't really affect runway operations, but the airport will get a say in that if the declared distances do change. there are no identified environmental impacts. There should be no cost. And so this is what the declared distances would look like for the runway 31, which is on the bottom. [23:19] They're still going to have the full use of the pavement 5,412 ft. And for runway 13, the takeoff run available or tore up takeoff distance available, which is tota and accelerate stop distance available, which is ASDA, would be limited to 5,187 ft. And then the landing distance available [23:42] would be a little less than that, 400 ft less just due to the display threshold. So that would be 4,787 ft. [23:51] Do you guys want to do questions as I go through or at the end if you have any? [23:57] Maybe we go through. Okay. [24:00] Is there anything you'd like us to explain in less technical terms? [24:05] In English would be great. [24:09] So the safety area is a certain footage or a certain length of area that is supposed to be flat in case of an overshoot or an undershoot of an aircraft as they go. So what we're proposing with the APAC testing is that we do these declared distances. So instead of [24:29] flattening out more land to accommodate for a longer safety area, we are going to take some of the pavement of the runway and say do not factor this length of pavement in when you're considering your landing and takeoff distance. This is only for overshoot and undershoot in case you need it. This area is not for takeoff landing. This area is now for, you know, a safety. [24:51] So we're not actually installing new pavement or anything like that. What we're trying to do is just take some of the pavement that we have, paint a line over it, and say, "Okay, from this point on, this is here for safety, [25:02] and there's enough runway for that qualified certified." [25:06] Yes, we think that that the change is going to be negligible that even with the reduction of length in the runway, the aircraft that are coming in, it's not going to affect their safety calculations little if any at all. [25:22] Yeah. If it the we did a kind of a runway length analysis. The landing distance needed for the majority well not the majority but the C2 aircraft that come in now is way under 4L 4787. So that won't be affected. the length for takeoff now they might have to just take a little less fuel just so the weight is a little lower so they can take off safe. [25:48] And that so we do currently have C2 planes landing. [25:53] Yes. So that's what drives the upgrade if you will to C2 is just the fact that we have a certain number of those operations that are already taking place. [26:01] Okay. [26:02] Which is dictating the upgrade to C. [26:04] I wasn't sure if that was a sort of in case we do, but it sounds like we all do. Yeah. Yeah. [26:16] So my question is if the C2s are already landing, how are they acknowledged to be okay to do that without these changes? so it's this is to decrease the risk of something happening. [26:34] Okay. [26:34] But it's not it's not that they're unable to land here without these. These are just if a certain of those amount of those operations exist instead of being outliers or instead of being oh yeah we get those but that's not who it's designed for. it's more to okay enough of these are happening now that you need to design your runway for that. [26:53] Yeah that's so somebody wants to write me to 747 they can p it on the runway it can slide by and then you might have to adjust the run would be able to take off. Yeah, the critical aircraft is determined by at least 500 annual operations. And so the last master plan that was the B2 aircraft. [27:16] and now it's the C2. But ironically, the last design aircraft was a B2 and it was upgraded to C2 during the planning period. So even if you stayed with that same design aircraft, it would still have to be designed for a C2. [27:30] What year was the last plan? [27:32] 2015. [27:37] Sorry, one last question. So, it sounds like aside from some paint there no real cost implications. [27:47] So, this change. [27:49] Yeah. I mean, there's maybe paying s to do math for it. [27:56] No big construction. [27:57] Correct. [27:58] So, we're we're fortunate that the runway was long enough already so you don't have to change it. We just we change the lines a little bit. [28:06] Yes. [28:09] Like I said, just the cost of paint is a lot cheaper than [28:19] right. So the next facility requirement is for runway 0321. That is 4,000 ft long. The existing length is adequate. There is a pavement rehabilitation needed during the planning period which is normal for airports. every 10 20 years they have to be able to gain their wavelength u but the existing 100 foot width does exceed the 75 foot the B2 standard so the AP pack recommendation is to retain 0321 [28:45] at the 100 foot width that's going to maintain the operational flexibility for larger aircraft the one unknown is we aren't sure that pavement will be eligible with for FAA funding because it is 25 ft wider than standard so during the design of the runway rehabil abilitation, we're going to nail that down to FAA to determine if it's eligible. [29:06] if it isn't, then can always just rehabilitate the 75 ft to the standard so they don't have to pay the extra funds or they can pay the extra funds to rehabilitate to the 100 foot standard. there is no identified environmental impacts for this except for the what would come with the rehabilitation which should be dealt with at the time of design and construction. [29:28] And the planning level cost is about 4.2 million and that's for rehabilitating the runway [29:36] and that's FAA funding. [29:40] Yes. To have a runway. [29:42] Yeah. They typically fund about 90% [29:54] and a time frame for that. [29:57] When is the [30:00] 2029 2030. So coming up in the next fiveish years, we'll have to start thinking about budgeting for that. [30:13] Okay, thank you. [30:16] All right, runway visual aid improvements, navigational aids or nav aids. these do provide additional legal guidance to improve approach guidance in runway and would benefit. So, the APAC voted to install runway end identifier lights reels on runway 21 as well as on runway 13 as well as Cappy's pre oh my gosh precision approach path indicators on runway 21. [30:41] that is dependent on obstruction removal as well. So depending on the level of obstruction removal the airport might elect not to do that. it's just a safety upgrade. It's always recommended during master plans, but there's no negative impact of safety if it's not done. the environmental would be a CADX or categorical exclusion. [31:04] And I don't know if you want that explained in a little bit more detail. and then the cost would be about $200,000 for each installation. Papies would be more due to obstruction if that you would elect to go forward with that. [31:19] What obstructions are there that was need to be removed? so the papies have two surfaces. There's obstruction clearance surface and then there's a light signal clearance surface. So an analysis would be run for the papy installation. so you can see the number of obstructions that comes out on kind of an aerial map and you know there's dots that show the trees and the height and so forth. [31:44] So that would be looked at during design and if there was just too many obstructions to remove then we could just pull that off the plan not move forward with it if the airport may pack it up too [31:58] and to remove the obstructions easements would generally be required for off airport. so you know there'd be a pretty robust process to go through to get a papy at that end. [32:18] Sorry. So that's that's what APAC recommended, but of course when it comes to the budgetary piece of that, then that's when that would come to us. Jacob, is that for our approval or how does that work? [32:32] Yes. So this is the so chapter 5 is the preferred alternatives. So, I guess when you vote to approve chapter 5 here, I mean, I guess that would be what we would look into, but it would come up again whether or not you want to actually go forth with this project once the fine details are nailed down or once we have more information, see how big of an impact it's actually. [33:03] Yes. as they go. You know, we do the the airport projects, you know, with the with the budget committee and that kind of gives me the lesson [33:13] at the time of whether or not [33:17] these projects. [33:18] Thank you. [33:22] And then runway 21 again, there is no instrument approach on that runway end. So the APAC elected to coordinate with FAA to see if they could put an ARNAP runway navigational GPS approach with vertical guidance on that end. We didn't look into this fully because there is a lot of FAA requirements that you have to go through an FA coordination. [33:45] So basically the impact recommendation was just to pursue it see you know see what needed to be done see the cost and so forth and then at that point decide whether they wanted to actually go down that road. so this just is just a broad look at installing or in implementing runway 2 instrument approach. [34:06] How important would that be? How much of a safety factor would that [34:12] it would be beneficial? there are three other runways that have instrument approaches. So ideally you would be able to come in on one of those other runway ends depending on the wind. I mean it would improve safety but it's not a showstopper [34:35] and for apron improvement. So the apron does operate at board air capacity during peak periods. The master plan did forecast about a 10 space aircraft parking deficit by 2045 and the FBO or fixed space operators re a reoccurring hard stance shortfall. is currently two park stands and they're constantly in need of more. [34:56] So the AP pack voted on this concept for apron expansion. The yellow would be the new pavement and then the blue is pavement to be rehabilitated which that project is on [35:11] it would be a future [35:13] future. We're we're currently rehabilitating the rest of the [35:17] Okay, [35:17] that would be phase three. So, this would improve the apron by approximately 116,000 square feet. It would and total four total hard stands and six new tie- down spaces. And then the plan is to design this western most taxi lane to accommodate ADG3 aircraft, which are the wider wingspans. [35:37] At this point, the ADG3 aircraft really can't taxi around in this area at all just due to the taxi lane constraints. FAA funding eligibility is still being looked at on if they'll fund the additional I think it's 13 ft to make it ADG3 eligible. and they would rehabilitate the existing even pavement as part of the project. [36:00] environmental would be CADEX. there are some wetland impacts you can see here. and the planning level cost is about $6 million. And I'm just going to move along. and we can go back to the apron, but it's the same picture because, this is taxi, well, this is taxi I don't know why my mouse is so jumpy. [36:20] Taxi way bravo right here. right now this doesn't meet FAA design guidance. It's a direct access taxi way, so it accesses the runway directly from the apron, which FAA prefers that aircraft taxi from an apron to a taxiway before entering a runway. And there is no 90° turn either, which is an FAA standard. [36:41] So, part of the apron project would be to relocate taxi with Bravo North and implement a 90 degree turn. there is really no good way to get rid of the back taxi on runway 321. So, there would be continued back taxi to either end just because there's no really no room for parallel or good way to put in stub on either end. [37:02] there are some wetland impacts with this as well. Compensatory mitigation may be required depending on the level of wetland impacts. and the million-doll planning level cost is actually included in the apron $6 million planning cost. So, altogether it's not seven, it's six total. if you did the taxi way by itself, it would be [37:23] 1 million. So, any questions on either the apron or the way? [37:34] Again, this is this the same like 90 five5? [37:41] yeah, we're still trying to see if the if the apron expansion would be eligible depend that would come during the design of the project. [37:51] But the apron they may not be willing to cover that. If not then we can always get that fun. [37:58] Yeah. What are the timelines to do this work? Going to do it [38:04] as far as how long project [38:05] and when would you? [38:07] Oh, it would be sometime within the next 5 to 10 years and it would be years in advance. [38:16] I noticed the previous slide you had a plane with a three after instead of the two which you were discussing earlier. Is that a larger plane? [38:25] Yeah. Yeah. long wider wingspan [38:28] and that's allowed to come in even though the designs were [38:32] Yes. Well, the one of the issues that we have is if you can see on the right side that aircraft when they're kind of in that general area the [38:42] the marking in the current apron as is the safety distances and clearances from other aircraft is not big enough to allow for aircraft in that particular area. Okay. But our runways and taxiways are and even the left side of our ramp kind of towards taxiway bravo is large enough for that. But right now we have half of our ramp that can't be accessed by an aircraft that routinely comes with us. [39:10] All right. And taxiway Charlie has kind of the same issue as taxiway bravo. this also was direct access from the apron, which there's no real good way to fix that, but it also doesn't have a 90 degree turn. So, the apex selected to reconfigure it to create a 90° turn and have it come straight onto the runway rather than the acute angle for better visibility. [39:34] the environmental would be CADEX with this. And then the planning level cost is about $2 million. And we anticipate that this would be AIP eligible funding assistance. [39:49] hanger development. Currently, there's no existing hangar spaces that are available for lease. They're all under lease. portions of the existing hangar area up in the flight club area do have wingspan constraints. There is no real good way to get rid of that, but I did want to mention we do we are aware it exists. APAC selected just to proceed with what's currently on at the airport layout plan which was already permitted and approved. [40:13] This taxi lane is already constructed. the red indicates proposed hangers. So the recommendation is just to continue to pursue this. There is no airport cost anticipated because the taxi lane is been constructed and the hangers would be privately constructed and funded by private individuals. [40:38] vehicle parking. So there is some I don't want to say shortages but it gets tight during peak periods. So additional parking will be needed to meet the future demand. So there are two parking areas that the APAC elected to proceed when demand and funding become available. So one is the one on the left is the preferred parking area. [41:00] It's adjacent to the current terminal parking lot. that could add about 40 to 45 spaces and this depends on how the lot is configured, the number of final spaces you end up with. And then the one on the right is just a future have it on the ALP in case it's needed. An area east of the maintenance long-term lot for about 25 to 30 spaces. [41:20] and this is not AIP eligible. FAA won't participate in funding this. So the airport would need to determine how they would fund it. the preferred lot is about $264,000. In the future would be about $292,000. [41:38] Parking would bring in revenue. [41:40] Yes sir. So we charge about $7 a day parking and in the summer we run out of spaces with just how busy we have people parking in our grass and things like that because there just are no other parking. [41:53] But bring in revenue so eventually we catch up to the cost. [41:57] Yes sir. It's just plan for the future. [42:03] and Jedi fuel storage. So, right now, this is also constrained during peak demand periods. as far as I know, they've never run out, but the FPO worries a little bit just because it does get kind of low. They're getting a lot of deliveries. so, and the estimated peak period shortfall is approximately 40,000 gallons. So the AP pack recommendation is to add two 20,000galon above ground jeta tanks and the two tank configuration does allow for redundancy. [42:31] If one tank goes down then they still have the other tank to draw on. The environmental for this would be CADEX as well as a permit from the state fire marshall. And this is about a $2 million level. [42:48] It's not a deal which is why I say [42:50] it is it is but it is worth the I mean fuel sales is one of the biggest revenue sources for us just having more fuel on hand and not having people eventually. [43:07] Yeah. Got it. [43:11] And that is just what the preferred alternative looks like on the ALP. you can see the apron area here, the hangers that are currently already approved and the clear distances. So, the next chapter is chapter six and that's when we actually do the ALP. But this is what the preferred alternative would look like on that. [43:32] And that is all I have. I don't have any more questions. [43:43] I think we have [43:48] chair this question clarify moved and second by both or two separate action. [44:01] Yeah, we haven't we haven't approved or moved your second [44:05] we did not [44:06] number five [44:07] or I didn't catch you. [44:09] Yeah. I mean, I will accept a motion to move and both section four and five. [44:17] We haven't done four yet. [44:18] No. Well, we did, but we think we're going to vote on both. [44:24] We need to do anything. [44:28] No. Just Robert's gonna [44:38] combine the two because that's how they've been presented. Any further discussion? [44:46] Very nice. Thank you. [44:51] then I will call the vote. All those in favor? Three in favor? None of those. Thank you. [45:01] And the next one is an act to approve upgrades in the superior court. [45:10] We have a motion. [45:12] Second move and seconded. this seems like a newish item. Yes. Anybody here to discuss it? [45:20] This Jim is slightly stuck. [45:22] Yeah. There's actually two items on the first report. there some acoustic panels in there. pretty much asking the county if they want to be involved in picking out the color. They're funding it completely with the state, you know, the acoustic panel. Second part of this is they need to do some work to the benches. [45:46] They have a mill right on site. They would like to have a meeting to discuss options and stuff like that, too. They're going to modify the bench and clerk's desk. They're going to that new electronic case management software Odyssey. So they've got another courtroom. So they already got this. [46:06] I don't know what that would entail. They didn't really come out and say that's funed by them completely too. So it needs to have a meeting with the decision makers find out what the options are and everything. Plus, at the same time, I think it's really good because after the roof is done over at Superior Court, we have some damage to fix, which could include a little bit of milite and a plaster guy. [46:31] So, it'd be a good meeting to have with the state, find out what they're thinking. They've been pretty well to work with so far. They like to keep that relationship going. But yeah, this right here items there are the two things acoustic panels that they're they're funding the project completely [46:51] and then the second part they just want to have a meeting to discuss the qualifications for the judges and clerk bank. So I appreciate [47:03] we do have some time and their schedule shutdown is the end of November around Thanksgiving for a two week period. and to Shim's point, the new software is actually going live statewide. So, each county is shutting down for a period of time to do this. Just so you're [47:22] we need to meet before that time. And is that the kind of thing where one of the three of us can meet or Yeah. Okay. [47:33] Facilities managers [47:37] typically I meet with the administrator available at the moment. It would be whom do you want to do that with Jim to be that decision? [47:47] Okay. So, it could be [47:50] you choose. [47:50] Yeah. Okay. [47:55] And did you say we have to pick a color? [48:02] I'm sure they [48:06] think we can leave it to them probably. I agree. [48:13] And we probably don't have to decide who's going to meet with them at this point. We may wait and see what their schedule is and who's available. That's all right. [48:24] Then any further question? [48:29] Seeing as none, I'll call the vote. All those in favor? Three in favor? Not a vote. Next item is [48:39] an act to reappoint Thomas Luren to the Knox County Board of Assessment Review Committee. Do I have a motion? [48:52] Second. It's been moved and second. Is any discussion? [48:56] Yes. Obviously, his name is brought up by a member of the public and they'd like to know more about that situation. [49:08] With your approval, I will ask of you this and I will set up an appointment with him and meet with that to get his involved. [49:20] Yes. [49:23] any discussion on the I think I think we have to let's see. making a motion to [49:36] table which needs to be seconded. [49:41] Any discussion on that motion? [49:45] If not, then I'll call the vote. All those in favor? [49:50] Three in favor? None opposed. the next one is an act Jim Murphy in the Knox County Board of Assessment Review Committee. [50:02] Similarly, I would propose tableabling that as well. Just I'd like a little more information about both [50:13] consistency. I mean I won't let you do the meeting [50:17] appointed but if you don't mind I'll try to meet with [50:22] that would be great. [50:23] Okay. So that needs to be a [50:27] and I'll second it and all those in favor. [50:36] next one we have is an act to approve administrative realignment of Knox County Communication Center. [50:52] Oh, sorry. Second. Sorry. [51:02] Welcome. [51:06] Good afternoon. I'll start for our director, but so there's a lot behind this Commissioner Ratner part of his updates. is he's part of the dispatch side of things. He's worked with the director and the Eboard. We do have an Eboard member in the room as well. He's on the executive board. [51:27] I can give you their sentiment if you need some films. but the long story that you have in the front pages as I gave you to the short is as we continue to assess dispatch it is hard to get away from the fact that there's not a second administrative person there to help the dispatch director. [51:47] we recognized this several years ago when we ran into our staffing crisis. we attempted to fix it then was not able to be done because I think mostly it was due to the pool of people that were applying for jobs at the time. the world has changed. People are much more active in finding jobs again. so we see this is our opportunity to try and get somebody to [52:11] assist the director so the director can actually do a lot more of the things that she needs to do on the regional and statewide level with the 911 council. Lena, all those other groups, she misses out on a lot of those. I end up bringing back several updates for her on a regular basis. is part of our relationship, which is great. [52:32] and I highly advocate for this position as well. The eboard is advocating for it. the real part for you folks and why it's in front of you, because we assess the job description, there wasn't a lot of change. if there's not a lot of change and it doesn't impact cost, we don't necessarily bring it to you. but we're being creative in how we get it now. She has two supervisory positions that have not been filled for some time. [52:56] not for a lack of not having staff, but many of them are still very green in their experiences. it's hard to be the supervisor and hold people accountable if you don't know everything about holding them accountable yourself. so it's been agreed through the administrator up to this point. Amber's worked with her and everything's been agreed that to basically use the funding from those two unfilled positions for the remainder of this year to pay for this one position. [53:20] So using the two positions funding to do that. and then as we roll into next year's budget to freeze one of those positions permanently or indefinitely, maybe not permanently, indefinitely is probably a better word. because supervision is also a challenge sometimes. So, we may discover that we do need those two supervisors, but this is a chance to suspend one for an indefinite period and then suspend the other for a roughly six-month period to help offset potential cost increase. [53:49] because there's a few grades higher than a supervisor and by freezing those that will help give an offset. So, there should be basically a net zero gain or loss in the communications budget at least around this position if you approve it today. So, do you give the rest? [54:06] I mean, you've really summed it all up there, but I'm here to answer any questions. [54:10] I think [54:14] it's it's a great idea and it's necessary, although I 've missed because I monitor radio, so I monitor occasionally. I'll miss hearing you on weekends on [54:27] You never know. I was just going to be selling a shift. the fact that you might actually have a day off probably a really good idea. [54:35] That would be nice to at least at least be able to turn off my cell phone when I get to bed. That would be great. My husband would appreciate it as well. [54:43] Many times I hear a director taking calls dispatch on weekends. So be nice to have help management. Well, and that too there's and this is going to sound raw, but there's 13 of them. So, there's 13 front line staff and then it's me. And so, to have a nice to have a buffer between us where they have somebody else to go to before they have to go to me would be really helpful for some of the other things that really don't have to come up [55:13] this high if that makes sense. So, but day off is definitely that'd be a tremendous burden. [55:23] No, I don't have any questions. I think it sounds like a great idea and we'll see where next year leads. [55:32] I guess my question is do we have this job description already made up? [55:38] Yes. I mean in [55:42] 2012 or 2016 somewhere there about it hasn't changed enough that we need to update it. [55:47] Yeah. So what's up is just some of the training requirements because limits have changed as far as the core duties actually some of them got elevated maybe is the word to use maybe not maybe that sounds so there were some things that were direct connection that could infringe on some of the [56:07] line staff not exempt issues because this is an exemp position we tried to make a lot of those less hands-on so the lime staff are doing those things and did not make a fundamental change to the position based off of this because part of my hesitancy with any of these things is creating more middle management. [56:30] You know, we need more frontline people rather than more middle management. On the other hand, in some cases, middle management can help support that front line so it runs more smoothly. [56:45] So, you know, on that level. I'm ambivalent about it, but I think it's something that you just touched on. Let's see how it goes. You know, I think I think we make these changes sometimes because it appears like it's going to be the best change. but we should never be hesitant to go back to something else if it looks like it's not working. [57:08] Oh, certainly. I would agree. And more to his point too is that the old job description just it more or less had antiquated verbiage in it. And this really doesn't change much. it just kind of brings it more into 2026. Like he said it changes some of the training that's required. It actually got rid of some things that we don't even dispatch center. But it also has the version there that if they need to, they can help out front line. [57:32] They're not meant to be filling in for staff on a regular basis. just if there's a critical moment, they can step in and help. and they're there just to do exactly what you're saying, sort of be management and yet be part of frontline staff as well. So, I think it's going to be a nice buffer between the two. [57:51] And I guess the other question is that whole reinvent the wheel thing. we do have 16 other or however many communications there are in the state. is this a common position or is the supervisor a more common position? [58:10] I would say at the whole for all of the centers, threequarters of them have a deputy director and then there are some that just have the director and supervisor. So, it all just sort of depends on what's but it is it's not an uncommon role. [58:26] I would I would think that one of the reasons it's particularly important is because this is a 24 hour 365 job, you know, there needs to be somebody else that can step in [58:41] so that our director can have time off vacation or because there is there's nobody else if they're pulling from somewhere else the county administrator for a while. I'm sure the sheriff would have to step in at some point. He'd be you need to have those kind of hours. [59:01] Need to have somebody else that be able to step into the role. [59:06] And this is the first time I think you be become officially deported long time. Thank you for coming in, stepping in and building the system, rebuilding the center and making it a very appropriate place county and a place where people want to work. So, thank you for all that. [59:24] Thank you. I've been [59:32] one last question. do you have any names who you think might be? [59:37] I did have and actually live in Maine, but I think they're too far out and I they're a good hour and a half away and [59:48] crossed. [59:50] Guess would this happen as would this job description go out and hopefully be filled as soon as possible? [59:57] Yes. HR team, if you will, is working on getting that posted. I hear [1:00:05] and it'll go out nationally not just ondeed but on industry websites as well which is where I find it. So it 'll obviously go out to other people in the industry and are excited [1:00:21] and it does get to another issue that we're going to discuss later on which is the administrator. [1:00:29] If this hiring process goes on for a while, do we have the authority to hire us? [1:00:38] Then I'm still working and we'll discuss it in the next piece. [1:00:41] Okay. [1:00:46] Any other discussion? No. If not, all those in favor. [1:00:53] Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. [1:00:59] Chair, do you mind if we get that shirt right? [1:01:20] Well, there's many others. stuff. [1:01:24] I did not put this on the agenda, but I assume we want to talk about stuff and so I'll just give you my updates, talk about the other stuff that was out there. So, as far as my piece with working with legal counsel, we have yet to find a time to meet. I've been going through what we had from the couple years ago scenario. do have some models that we can use [1:01:48] as chair and I have discussed in particular there are ways to lack of a better term bifurcate CA or the commanding administrator's roles into different parts so that nobody no one person is doing those things there is that checks and balances like talked about like just need to confirm that with legal [1:02:08] we had that discussion once before but just making sure that we just touch base and say, "Hey, it's been a few years. Want to make sure we didn't miss something." so that's the only thing I don't have left. So point is, so far we're still good. We still have an accounting administrator. she has been communicating at least on a regular basis to give us answers to questions. [1:02:29] So it's been working well to, put the package together and say, "We just need the decision. Here's all the information kind of like we did with you folks." That has worked well so far. but the question, like we said, is what happens after we get into October 31st? so once I have that, I'll update you on that piece. Margaret and Kathy have done quite a bit to do the research on next steps and what you need to do or what to do in finding [1:02:55] the place of an administrator. So, I'll let them speak to that a little more, but they did share a lot of those documents with both of you or all three of you, excuse me. I think that it's really in your court of what you want to do. We've done it all different ways. We had our own team do it once. We had expert from outside go out and do it for us. [1:03:18] the hybrid in between type of model as well. So I think it really comes down how involved you want to be in the process. you know the challenge is going to be that we're also going to be getting into the holiday season. a lot of people like to take that time off, but it may be advantageous to us because if their time off is to travel to Maine and visit family, perhaps they're interested in doing a job interview while they're doing it. [1:03:42] so just something to think about. I let them talk more what they found for documents, but that's what I have for updates in my head. I have a question. if you had a discussion with the county administrator, will she be available to answer questions after the Yes. [1:04:02] So we already have worked on using her professional skill set in a pertium capacity to help us with HR in particular. that has been agreed to. Again it's the availability is the concern but on the pertium status she is able to do that but we're holding that. [1:04:26] You have in the past referenced another county where on an interim basis the sheriff has taken over by the county administrator. [1:04:37] Yes. [1:04:38] If that's legal there then I don't see that it's not legal here. Not that I'm asking you to do that. I'm just saying for those few things that we really need an administrator for like hiring somebody because we can't do that. Well, we probably can because we have the ultimate authority, but we're not supposed to be involved with that on a day-to-day basis or some of those other decisions [1:05:07] if it's legal for you to have some of that authority. We went through this before. We looked at our charter and it said basically we can't hire an interim who's already working to be the county. That was to your point because the other county that I'm very familiar with in particular [1:05:30] their charter or they did not have a charter. I think they have started working towards one now. But they fell to state law which essentially says that elected roles or roles like that are not compatible I believe is what the language is or something like that. it does not mean that a person cannot fill in for duties. [1:05:51] It just means that they can't be both people. and that's I think what legal counsel advised us last time and that's what I found so far is that as long as those duties are split out. So like the clerk for instance and potentially we could have Margaret do all the clerk duties, not me. Kathy can then do some of the she doing a lot of the financial but there's some financial pieces that the CA also does in connection with the finance director. [1:06:18] Maybe she gets all of those that like kind of like we did last time. And then back to like what we did with the chair's position being that hey we've done all this work now chair you get to be the day-to-day acting there's things that need to be assigned where hey do we add this to the agenda to bring before you a special meeting those types. So it's there is a little bit of a blueprint and to your point it's [1:06:43] not necessarily illegal. The idea was to prevent people from having too much power, especially with a county or state above them just because we're all elected and try to keep us. I understand it. it's not like a town has done because towns have a lot of times we'll do a chief of police and a town manager in combined roles. [1:07:05] U one of my good friends Mark Leonard up in BC does that right now. He's the police chief. They lost their town manager and they asked him to step in and he's been doing that for a few years now. go. so it's not an unheard of concept to have that law enforcement professional in that either in towns or at a higher level do that. the individual does have a lot of personnel experience. [1:07:26] That tends to be what management is dealing with the personnel side. but like I said, just want us to all be cognizant that we don't want the role of sheriff to have too much and how do we split that out just everybody is safe. There's also the potential for hiring a [1:07:46] interim even if it's on a pdium on a smaller base but then I mean to take depending on how long this process takes to take some of the pressure off of staff including you and Kathy and Margaret. on the other hand that might be more [1:08:06] sloppier than just letting you guys do it. I don't know, you know, that 's something that we need your feedback from or for about whether it seems to make sense that we get somebody who can take some of the pressure off or if it would just make it harder. And then I think that's why we kind of proposed the game concept last week is [1:08:28] at least we know the person or can bet the person had the experience in this grant. We could do that with anybody. But just from that past experience of intrams, a lot of them didn't they may have had great management ability, but they didn't necessarily have direct municipal or county experience. And I think really the hard part is a lot of those folks because the position is so sought after in the state right now that a lot of those folks are not in position to [1:08:57] do it in an interim basis, meaning in that full-time capacity. I think that we may have more success in finding to your point, hey, I'll give you one day a week for eight hours. it's still interim, but most people hear in they're thinking you still want me full-time, but for a short duration during this interim, just give us a few hours a week. type of scenario. [1:09:18] So, [1:09:19] and you're you so that's the piece though that you're still waiting to talk to council on. [1:09:25] Correct. [1:09:26] No,, not so much the intro because you guys have full authority to do that anytime. whatever capacity you want. it's the if you don't have an interim, what's the solution? That's what I'm still working with legal law. [1:09:38] I see. [1:09:40] My question you and Kathy have done this once before as part of a trio same group. [1:09:47] would the two of you do you think it would work well with an interim? did you have more experience? Two of you have the experience doing this? really sort of give us some information about how you think it could work. What's to you and Kathy? What do you think is the best path forward right now? [1:10:13] I'll let you speak first. [1:10:17] I think I voice we were talking about this before that to bring in an interim that isn't already in a municipality. It's very time consuming on our part to bring them up to speed and provide the education and then the follow up and so I'm not sure that's overly beneficial. [1:10:38] I don't know that saves time. I'd love to say that yet that alleviates and we can kind of give things to that person, but if they're not in our world, they don't know where to go, what to do. So, maybe can make some phone calls, but you still need to provide the phone number. Who do you talk to? What do you gather? These are the forms you need. [1:10:59] that seems pretty cumbersome. I think if we can utilize PDM to help with some of the things that that position or those positions their knowledge base can have them do own and then bring back to the table that's beneficial. [1:11:23] Do you have any ideas of who say another county administrator would be a good fit? I know the county administer in Lincoln County was part of the search for previous administrator. [1:11:39] Do we have any candidates that you think this could work? Well, this could give us a good time to do this. [1:11:51] I don't but I also haven't had any conversations. I also know that many counties are in similar situations that we're in that they have people doing multiple jobs. So to have any time to help us other than answering questions, I'm not sure of the availability of that. [1:12:11] unfortunately also that because of the shortage of manpower we have had over the last year or two, I haven't been out in the networking situations I'm usually in to really have a good feel with what's out there. [1:12:32] I am happy that our current CA is willing to take some things on a per DM basis to help which would alleviate some of the things that need to happen but are not as overly time-sensitive but still important. [1:12:51] That's good. So, it sounds like unless we can find a really good candidate, and there may not be one out there, it may be just as easy to keep doing what we're going to be doing rather than go in that direction. Even if it's for a short time, it would be beneficial if we had a really good person to do it. But if it's not somebody who everybody agrees is really good, it's probably [1:13:16] worse going in that direction than doing what we're doing for as long as it takes. But there may be a point, and this is touched on it, we lean on you to tell us, "Oh, we really do need an inter. No matter how bad this person is, it's going to be better than us doing all of this stuff." [1:13:37] you know, if we reach that because we're going to start this process and we'll discuss the process of firing somebody. But if we go through one round of applications and we don't get anybody who's any good, we're going to have to do a second round of applications. And so it could drag on. We've seen these things drag on for a while. [1:13:58] We want to make sure that in position that stuff is still getting done the way it's supposed to without overt taxing staff. [1:14:08] Yeah. And so we need feedback from you when we get to that. [1:14:14] That's one side of it. I swear I sign with legal is it's also designed to build that buffer between you and the staff and not having it fill just narrows that gap, [1:14:27] right? [1:14:28] and from a liability standpoint, that 's a harder place for us to get to. And I think you know the challenge as we've discovered in a lot of laws and the charters in the last few years is they were all written in a time when everybody was just jumping to do these things. In today's world they're not jumping to do it anymore. And our laws and rules around it are in some ways antiquated because they didn't anticipate some of these problems. [1:14:55] and you know that's I guess my point is sometimes we do have to just make do and just figure it out because To Kathy's point, I agree 100% is that, you know, trying to bring somebody up to speed took us a long time last time. I mean, they were, you know, one of the interims was just getting into their stride as we were replacing them. and that can be a challenge because we're now spending that much more time just teaching people those things. [1:15:21] and even a person who knows what they're doing, there still going to things be things that have to be taught. like they may be on a you know they're coming from a current county they may be on a Janu July one budget versus the January one budget and that may change things for them because statutoily may be something that they know or have to look up you know but from my perspective in a selfish way it's that role knows things that we don't know you I know personnel management I know budget I know some of those things but there are finite details like an example [1:15:52] you know one of the things Kathy and I don't know is how do we do the tax assessment number. How do we get to that? Like we remember we had to do it and there's a process, but if you're not living it every day or every year just making those network contacts to get those numbers to get what you need, that is taxing on us as staff to your point. so that's the things that somebody could help out with is at least pointing in that direction and you know the good news is in our network I can reach out to some of those administrators and I already have and they have given us [1:16:22] some direction which is great. so if we do have to go that way, we do have, you know, a peer network to lean on. it just may not be as quick as we would like it to be. [1:16:33] I'd also say that for everybody who's on staff, if there are things that a county administrator, then you say, "Oh, wouldn't it be great if I had the county administrator to do this, you know, that you write that down." So, we put together a list of the things. Even if we have a PDM interim person, we have some tasks for them to do that really are helpful [1:16:57] rather than just simply oh well this is something that you know you should be able to do but it's something that we really need the answer need to spare time for somebody else to do because it is so time consuming. [1:17:12] I think one of the situations I personally think we're better off as long as Kathy you and that can handle it. we're better off going forward looking for the next CA instead of trying to find an interim because each person that comes in will put their own stamp on things have their own field and to put everybody through we're going to do it this way for a couple months and then when we hire somebody that we're going to do a completely different putting people through [1:17:42] that change is difficult. [1:17:47] Yes. So, one of the things that we've been contemplating is offering up my chief deputy to fill in the role. But again, that then runs in some scenarios where now I don't have a chief deputy, if you will. what does that do for the office of sheriff? Me, same thing like you guys not having your seat. So, do we solve one problem and then cause another. [1:18:07] So, those are those are things that I'm trying to talk to Peter about in particular is if we do act towards that liability that comes from that. you know, so we have to solve it. We are, you know, it's a crisis. We need to get a resolution. and we got to do the one that has the least amount of liability and exposure. [1:18:26] I think maybe the best step is the next step and we can discuss it all day here is you have to have your conversation with our legal staff. [1:18:34] Yes. [1:18:35] And then find out what legally op legal options we have and then move forward. [1:18:44] We're just going to go around and around here. [1:18:51] Okay, now we get down to the nitty-gritty of how are we going to try to find a new county administrator? [1:19:03] I find the process to find a new administrator. [1:19:12] Well, I guess the first step would be the job description that was sent out earlier. Does it meet what your expectations are of that position? And then as a commission, are you agreeable to go back to the company that we have used in the past for CA department manager recruiting to help have them help us with this? [1:19:35] the last I was just coming in last CA was selected and I got to sit in some of the meetings and we had a group of people they weren't a company they were a group that was put up to make decisions I don't know how what happened before that we ended up with I felt that great selection [1:19:55] [1:19:57] and so it seems to me that process worked better than whatever was done before that [1:20:04] the step before that is they would have the resource as far as where to post this position to get the quality candidate or the group of candidates that you want because of the level of position also the screening process of all the applications that come in before it gets to anyone here internally reviewing the candidates. [1:20:27] Okay. Is that how it was done before? because that seemed to give us a reasonably good mandates and we had obviously in house that made the most sense but I don't know that experimenting trying another way is going to really [1:20:47] provide us much different lesson [1:20:49] on top of them looking at the applications they would also do an initial screening they would take notes and pass it off to whoever the committee is that is reviewing doing that. So there's already a valuable component of information before you even start discussing however many candidates came. [1:21:08] Seemed to work the last time. [1:21:12] One thing I think is important is to make sure that whatever we need to do to get the best applications, the best candidates to apply. [1:21:24] That's that's I think the key is we need to find candidates available then apply for situation. In the recent past, we have two processes ago, we hired a consultant that advertised and looked at the applications as they came in. [1:21:46] And we had a committee which was made up, as you say, of another county administrator or staff, right? and they looked at those applications that were already pre-screened went through them and did a second interview [1:22:07] and then I think a third interview at that point. but the last time we did it, that seemed like a cumbersome process. And we sent out the advertisements in house and all of the applications came to the commission and we looked at all of those applications and picked our five tops [1:22:30] off of that. And then that went to our in-house committee to look at and not so much to make a recommendation at that point as to do a second screening of those people. and then we hired the person. so we've done it both ways. I don't know that there was a great advantage in having somebody I thought it was really enlightening [1:22:54] looking at all of the applications [1:22:58] as opposed to having somebody else look at all those applications and either say oh there's nobody good or you know at that time we were the ones who looked at them and so those are the those are the two ways we've done it. There are probably other ways we can hire nobody who just does the whole entire process too. [1:23:19] I don't think we want that because we are ultimately responsible for who it is. [1:23:25] We could just give our application package to one of these consultants and say, "Here, you advertise it wherever you think it's going to be best." The very last time we did it, we started with them just in Maine, thinking, as Kathy's observed, that we do better off with somebody who already knows what the county is like in Maine. [1:23:47] But we didn't get many very good applications at that point. So we sent it out nationally. We still didn't get very many good applicants. so I don't know, you know, I don't remember how much it cost to have a consulting firm do it. [1:24:05] And I think when we're talking about consulting, we can also do it two different ways. but I will say the last time we went through this, we also had an HR manager going to help with this whole process in house, which we're missing right now. So even if we choose to not hire, I will say the consulting firm that we did [1:24:29] two times ago, we would still need to enlist the HR consultant that is helping us now in general daytoday be part of this process. So, we're still going to need I feel an outside layer [1:24:43] to help. [1:24:47] Yeah. [1:24:48] It just it's Yeah. Which way you want to approach that. our the one we're working with now has a lot of municipal contacts, does a lot of work for other agencies. So, I do think she would have the tools to be able to post it in places we may not think of and be able to do the gathering and even if it's not the initial screening to [1:25:14] put it together and get it to the commission. that sounds like a good idea to me and I like the idea of they had mentioned that mission went through the applications last time version works for us and think we should you know put it off to somebody else find they're going to need to discuss it. [1:25:36] Well I mean I think I think you're you're right. we've always leaned on staff or a consultant to know where to put the advertisements, when it should go, what the deadlines are. We've been having to come up with those things. So, if we can hire our HR consultant to do a lot of that work, it's not the same as having a consultant firm, but it certainly is getting an outside helper so that again, so that all of this doesn't fall on you and sheriff and Margaret [1:26:07] to do all of this extra work. We're paying somebody to do that work. [1:26:12] Somebody that's very familiar with the county because she's working here. [1:26:15] Yeah. So, does that make sense that we have to go over our packet? I don't know that we want to do that publicly. if we all send our packet back with any comments to we'll start by sending it back to the three of you. [1:26:39] for somebody to combine all those comments and put together the packet and then call our HR consultant and say what's our timeline? Can you do this because I mean you know from the and where should we advertise [1:27:02] and then send it out to you know it's going to be in the main municipal magazine it'll be in whoever else wherever else whether we do Indeed or any of those others. see if we can get good applicants. One of the problems, of course, is when you do something online, an awful lot of those applicants [1:27:25] are just filling in an application because they have to fill in an application. And there's, you know, whatever number, 75% of them you can just throw out. [1:27:36] Well, it also may be that there is an AI tool now that helps you Yeah. [1:27:42] filter through those. So, [1:27:46] yeah. Yeah, I mean it doesn't take much to read through them, but [1:27:51] I [1:27:53] Oh, just a couple things. One of the things that was included in one of those hiring processes, had more in-depth screening questions. We actually requested essays at one point to help filter out some of those because filling out to be part of the list to be filled out to try to get it down to those who were actually truly interested. [1:28:14] other thing just for you folks to keep in mind is the staff has asked to be involved in the process at some point. They want to feel that they have some ability to get a feel for who their boss could be especially the direct reports. So they you just need to be cognizant of that as well that some of them feel that they should have at least some level of input whether that's in part of the hiring panel in some fashion or screening panel whatever it may be. [1:28:47] the idea like Amber's hire kind of build that culture and keep that culture that you want. Sometimes you need the staff to say yes, I feel this person is going to do that. Yeah, I think you know I've done some hiring experiences in other roles and having a staff person on the review committee is often really helpful because they can be a representative for the other staff members and you know it can be up to the staff to pick whoever they [1:29:17] want to be that representatives. They do feel represented. [1:29:24] Oh yeah. I think I think the committees that we've put together in the past which included staff outside people and if they're willing a another county administrator kind of person have an awful lot of insight that we could use and I think we want to go that way again before we get to the final decision. [1:29:49] Yes. But the question is where do they come in? Do they come in? If we hire an HR person, do we let that HR person help go through all of them and just give us the top 10 or do we have us just look through all of them and then give our top five to this committee? [1:30:11] U I don't know that we have to decide that. What we do have to decide is we have to put together our packet and get it out there with a timeline. It's worth a conversation with the HR consultant. Yeah. [1:30:26] Yeah. [1:30:26] But I think that does feel like the next step. I love that. [1:30:31] The other question I have is I know this is looking farther ahead, but I'm looking at the oral board questions that you sent that Margaret Kathy. and this was back when Amber was the HR director and she was the facilitator for those oral boards. I think that's another role that we need to think about like who 's going to play that facilitation role [1:30:56] internally and you know, is that something that Margaret could work on or is that something that we, you know, need the HR consultant to do? you know, just figuring out that role as well is like an important one because ultimately that's the person who I think is going to be hurting all the cats and making sure that we're we, you know, we're doing what we need to do. [1:31:28] I think we sort of know the path forward. [1:31:30] Well, we sort of do. Who's going to talk to the HR person and sort of spell out or get information, [1:31:40] see if they're even willing to do this. [1:31:44] I've been dealing with her the most just because of pending personnel matters. So, I can manage that meeting with her new tomorrow. I can just hold her over just have that conversation. [1:32:00] Yeah. And then if she needs if she wants to have a followup with one of us [1:32:08] I know the challenge in particular is going to be availability and I think she has 12 or 13 clients. [1:32:18] We're all pretty needy. [1:32:22] She may choose. Yes, I'll do specifically this. [1:32:28] That's originally how I got to introduce her was because of this scenario. of our misal leaders knew her and her work. [1:32:39] I do think some kind of a contract where we know what we're getting into and what they know what they're getting into makes a certain amount of sense. that way we can spell out whether they're the first person who's going to look at all these applications or not. If she thinks it's too much work, but she's willing to do the advertising and put together a timeline, [1:33:03] that would be a big plus. That's where we need to start. [1:33:10] Yeah. Start with a review of the application specs, the packet piece. And the not the application that's the same job search. [1:33:18] Yeah. [1:33:19] What you folks feel if it looks good, great. just let us know. And yeah, Kathy and I will take care of that. With a couple job descriptions lately, so though we have a packet with questions in it, it may be that they're not appropriate questions anymore, and we would like to have some input as to those questions from a professional level as well, too. [1:33:42] It's part of what the HR consultant is there. [1:33:45] Yeah, you're right. having the rules change from time to time and very spun up on most of those. we actually need some help with PFMLA get one but so yeah I think you know if you have your own questions that you're like hey I don't like this one but I want to ask this one throw that in there as well. we can [1:34:05] right [1:34:06] or take a look at [1:34:08] yeah with that experience we hope that somebody knows more than we do and might know might have better questions than we could it comes [1:34:16] I do know there's some questions you just don't ask at all there's some that you can ask it but you can't necessarily dive into the weeds so [1:34:24] those are really the two documents that you need from the job description and the question [1:34:30] just a quick review of the job description I guess it would be pre-screen in English. [1:34:35] Yeah. [1:34:36] you know, if you want to go essay based, we can look at that, too. I check with her in that meeting tomorrow. I think there is a kind of a cusp and so with my law enforcement hires, it's much more elaborate similar to this. You basically do a screening, a conditional offer. during that conditional law [1:34:58] and there's a probation area [1:35:02] maybe similar in that fashion [1:35:06] with various law enforcement is a little bit different be piece compared to the rest of the hirings other staffs that's something we lean on you if we have down to our three final contestants and we need background checks we can lean on you and say would you be willing to [1:35:27] give us a little more information. And it's probably not going to be an exact thing. It's going to be more of a stay away. And so in the last one, we actually used one of our detectives to get try to get staff involved. One of the detectives actually went out did all the background stuff for us, including, you know, past employer interviews, reference interviews, those things. [1:35:48] So it is it was a little time consuming, but the end of the day, this is your top leader. This is your person representing you on a an entryline level position. Being a little more diligent is not a bad. [1:36:07] It feels like we have a tenative plan. [1:36:10] You know, tenative plan. It depends. There's people doing the bad work. I wish I might. but we have another two meetings scheduled for a week from Thursday and it sounds like we probably need that. [1:36:28] You're going to have two out of three, [1:36:30] right? [1:36:31] Yeah. But we need we need to report back from the HR person about how much they're willing to do, maybe how much it's going to cost and by then we will have given everybody a packet of information and it will have been collated. [1:36:51] So feedback on the description and today by the end of this meeting [1:37:09] held next Thursday [1:37:17] together by Friday afternoon then we'll get them the [1:37:25] Oh, wait. [1:37:25] I'm sorry. I thought you just said to them by the weekend and then [1:37:29] for us to give back our comments to [1:37:36] that meeting. [1:37:36] Yeah. [1:37:38] It's more about getting you in. You tell us by that meeting what you want us to do there. [1:37:44] Yeah. I was thinking [1:37:47] I think the sooner we can get you this these job applications on our part back to you [1:37:53] the sooner you put it together and send it off to we've decided we're going to go along with their HR person sooner they can look at it I mean we can make this thing drag on forever but I don't think that's something we want to do [1:38:11] I think we would agree Yeah, [1:38:15] as I think employees and one of the things touch upon was [1:38:19] the interim was also for employees because you had different management styles [1:38:25] knowing it was temporary when there was certain decisions made anyway I it was hot on all [1:38:37] this I mean we need a county administrator because we need to decide what prevention usually going to do with an HR person and those things do affect staff very in depth. [1:38:51] And so we want to get through all of this stuff to get back to that. And there are other decisions we need to make. We're going to be working on the our jail. We're going to be working on our agreement with two bridges. We're going to be working. I mean, there's so many other things that we have to get a handle on that letting it drag on [1:39:11] doesn't do the county a service. [1:39:15] And the charter. Yeah. [1:39:20] Yeah. [1:39:26] Didn't we change the budget meeting? The budget presented to the [1:39:32] What's the date? Yeah. [1:39:42] 27th at 1:00. [1:39:46] Yep. [1:39:48] And [1:39:52] 27th [1:39:54] and we have a meeting scheduled for 11:00 on the 22nd of [1:40:01] Well, we held that. Yep. We also held the 28th. Not sure we'll necessarily need that. [1:40:11] The 28th at 5. I think we held that [1:40:15] just in case, but we have the 27th. [1:40:17] Yeah. You'll see what happens. [1:40:20] 27th at 11 a.m. [1:40:25] Yeah. 1300. [1:40:29] That's for the budget. [1:40:30] That is county. Yeah. presentation to county commissioners 27 [1:40:35] the 28th at 5:00 is a just a hold for now [1:40:42] okay [1:40:45] 27th right there again anything you have we can break in that budget presentation [1:40:51] that's up to you folks [1:40:53] we also have that day 3 to 5 for a P meeting [1:41:00] yes Okay. [1:41:10] Is there anything else to come before the commission? [1:41:20] Seeing as there's none, I will entertain a motive. [1:41:25] Second move and seconded. I don't think there's any need for discussion. I'll call the vote. All those in favor green opposed. Thank you all for having Thanks for hanging in there today.