Downtown Parking Committee reviews signage, pricing, and ordinance changes

[3:06] Sherita Russ-Snavel: Hi, I'm sorry, can you hear me? Oh, I think you might be on new. Sorry, I don't know if I'm supposed to be hearing this meeting or not. [3:26] Joseph Leonard: And then we'll start. Good evening everybody. This is a another regularly scheduled meeting of the Downtown Bangor Parking Committee. I am George Leonard, I am the chair for this committee, and I'm actually gonna have everyone introduce themselves around the table. Matt, how do you start off? Are you good? I'm [7:23] Matt Altiero: Matt Altiero, I'm the planning analyst for the city. I'm Bigita Hernandez Smith, the economic development officer for the city. Alton Buzzle, director of marketing for Hollywood Casino and vice president of Downtown Bangor Partnership board. I'm Robbie Finley, I'm one of the [7:40] Kelsi Gabrielle Hobbs: L.T. Hobbs, Resident Member of the Committee. [7:43] Ann Ross: Ann Ross, Business Member. Amanda Curry, Assistant for Parking. [7:49] Joseph Leonard: Art Clemmons, Manager for PCI Park. Okay, and we will later in the meeting have some more committee members or one committee member attending, and then Plane Officer Anya Collette will be joining us later. later. So with that, we will bring the meeting to order and we will first go over some old business. And the first one will be a parking proposal regarding 128 Main Street. Would you like to move things on that? I would. We were expecting the gentleman that attended the last meeting to be here and he is not here. So can we bring that agenda item to the bottom? Of course. Is that okay? [8:30] Matt Altiero: Is that? Yeah, that's the applicant online. [8:35] Joseph Leonard: Okay. Okay. Hi, Sherita. Would you like to introduce yourself? [8:39] Sherita Russ-Snavel: Hi, absolutely. Hi, everyone. My name is Sherita Russ-Snavel. I am the landlord of the building. It's actually owned by my parents, but I'm here in their place, and I was the one that submitted the proposal. So thanks so much again. [8:54] Joseph Leonard: Thank you. Thank you. So can you share the proposal with us, please? Please summarize the proposal because is it in this meeting that we decided to make a decision on the proposal? It was going to be this meeting, yes. [9:10] Sherita Russ-Snavel: Yeah so we 're just looking to make the two parking spots in front of our building to be 15-minute parking spots. A lot of this is due to some of the issues that we have encountered with the Brutus next door neighbors. drivers. They believe that if we make these parking spots 15 minutes long, it will allow for our DoorDash drivers to then park in those parking spots and thus be able to increase the flow of traffic and not block their driveway. So yeah, we just wanted to submit this because we've received complaints. [9:54] Joseph Leonard: Okay. I know we discussed this last meeting, but I do want to open it up to the committee members for any additional thoughts on this topic. [10:08] Kelsi Gabrielle Hobbs: I think this is kind of a waste of time honestly because this isn't any more than what we heard last time. Like we were focused on hearing whether the people that were having an issue with their door dashers were like had a number of times that they have the issue or like something along those lines, and that's not presented. So this is literally just hearing what we heard before, and as of before we had made a decision that we weren't gonna change the parking spaces unless we heard more about what the actual problem is from the people who [10:43] Joseph Leonard: have the problem is my opinion sorry and joining the table would you mind staying for the record who you are in your title any other additional comments or thoughts [11:09] Ann Ross: No, I would concur here. Do you so do you have a sense of what the complaints are and the frequency of the complaints and who the complaints are coming from? [11:21] Sherita Russ-Snavel: Please answer that information. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, I think I would honestly love to hear because it sounds like the attorney was here last time. Did they not have complaints about this and why they want because part of so I guess maybe I'll give a little bit of context here. They have been upset with some of the cars kind of where the door dashers and Jane and Joe Doe, who we don't know, like they could either be customers or people of the public parking in like the area between our building and theirs. And they claim that there are door dashers. And so they want to make sure that we're doing everything as the landlord on our end to make this proposal to the city to see if we can get those parking spaces in front of our restaurant changed to 15 minutes, because they believe that will allow for the door dashers to park in the front versus in their area. Area. But I would say, honestly, I would love to get your thoughts. If they didn't provide any complaints, then I don't know why we're doing this. And was there any feedback from them as well of what issues this has directly caused? Because I would love any documentation. [12:43] Matt Altiero: On that, I think one of the things that we requested to that the last meeting was, to your point, was more data, right, like what's the frequency of, I mean, for you, what's the frequency of DoorDash users, like do you guys have a hundred DoorDash is a night or 10, right, like is this really going to alleviate anything or is this making a mountain out of a molehill and creating more limited parking in Bangor? It's also not enforceable during prime DoorDash hours. So it kind of feels like just spinning our tires, so to speak. [13:22] Joseph Leonard: And I'm sorry to interrupt, but it was that final point that actually kind of for me was the big stickler, is that even if there were data that was very convincing that it was being as problematic as the attorney from last meeting made clear, it is just literally unenforceable because of the fine allotment that we give to our parking staff to actually enforce those parking limit times, and so even if we were to implement this, I don't think it would actually change the situation that your clientele are experiencing because our hands are really tied. Yeah. [14:15] Sherita Russ-Snavel: Did they make any specific claims about why this was an issue? I guess I'm just trying to understand if the opposing party had said, and like to, because if we were to do this it would allow for x amount of traffic flow, like there was nothing at the last minute, apologies, I wasn't there to hear, not that I can recall, and I'm [14:43] Joseph Leonard: seeing nods to the left and right from most community members as well, unfortunately, okay, did you have any additional information to provide at this point knowing everything that we just informed you [15:02] Sherita Russ-Snavel: no, I mean, I think what would be helpful is if there's any way I could get even just like documentation of this committee meeting, and I'll be honest, like it's been very tough, like I'm getting the sense in the room too that you all kind of agree that this is a little tough, and so I'm on the other side of it where like these people are basically suing us because of this issue, so anything that you could provide that we've had this conversation that I've made a good faith effort to, absolutely that would be really helpful, because if they're not showing up at this meeting and they're not telling us why this is an issue, then I still don't understand why this is an issue, you so I really would appreciate that too, unless I'm missing anything at all, like if I am [15:56] Joseph Leonard: Please let me know too. We can absolutely do that for you. I see we need to take in some notes and if you do you have her contact information. Yes. Yeah, all right, so we will provide that to you. We will wait in the next couple of days or next week or something. [16:16] Sherita Russ-Snavel: By early next week. Yeah, I think that sounds great. And again, I just wanted to do what I am told to do based off of the request that was made. So yeah, if any sort of documentation would be super helpful, I really appreciate it. And I think even just outlining the fact that the opposing party did not state the specific problems of why this is an issue, because that would have been helpful for me too, because I think this is why we're here in the first place. [16:48] Joseph Leonard: Yeah, okay, unless you have any more information to provide. Thank you so much for attending the meeting and we really appreciate you doing your business in the city very much. Thank [17:03] Sherita Russ-Snavel: you so much. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Thanks y'all. Bye. Unless there are any other final [17:11] Joseph Leonard: thoughts of staff. Do you have anything to add on this? Okay, I think I'm gonna scrudge right along to BPI recommendations. So if you would like to take that away, so counselor Leonard and Creek had requested that this be scratched from the agenda. She wants to have conversations with other entities before we go over this. So do we make a motion? Yeah, okay. Indefinitely or to a certain date? Indefinitely at the moment. Sure. Okay, I'll look for a motion to postpone indefinitely if anyone would entertain that. Make a motion to propose to delay indefinitely, right? Second. Unless doubted this will be postponed indefinitely. Can you ask a question? Of course. It's going to be postponed indefinitely because other conversations need to be had, but is there anyone that wants to express anything about the vpi recommendations that we could take into those conversations that you had prepared? I'm [18:26] Joseph Leonard: not seeing anything at this moment. If anyone does have any thoughts, please email either myself or Gavita or Anne to get those thoughts. Okay. With that said, we will move on to new business. Public parking meeting feedback. This actually was a pretty good event right now. We had a decent amount of people came in and provided their back, and I won't take the whole event away, but there were a lot of really great conversations that were had, and I think a lot of misinformation was articulated to be exactly what it was, and I was so happy that a decent chunk of people, two of which first used the parking garage for the first time ever, and for them it was a very wonderful experience, which is just showing my bias, but I use the parking garage literally every day, and I absolutely enjoy it very much. Great asset for the state. Anyway, sorry to spend this time with you. Do you have anything you want to leave this conversation with? Sure. So I thought it would be efficient and productive. If we led the conversation, you guys have the summaries of all the questions, right? So what I was thinking was, we'll pose the question, and then I'll give a guidance to discuss. And then somehow we can come to an action item if relevant, so that we can make sure that in our meetings, we're not only discussing, but we're trying to, you know, make motions to action. Time is precious, right? So question number one, do you find yourself looping for parking? What's the solution? Summary of responses. So this is a summary of all of the responses. So most are not looping. Issues raised were confusion, lack of signage, loading zones, and lack of awareness of garages. Some mentioned more parking, but not dominant. So I would like to guide us in a discussion around whether we agree that this isn't a supply issue, it's about visibility and turnover. People don't know where to go or spaces are being held too long, so just thoughts. Thoughts from the committee. I totally agree with that. You know, I own a little business [21:13] Ann Ross: this right down here on Main Street, and I mean on Harlow Street, and so I regularly hear from my clients and the people that visit that visibility is key in terms of where to park. I know we don't have a an app to direct people to the park. I think the mobile app is just for pay only, so you can't go on and look off of that phone. So visibility of parking signs, where to go, the, and it is confusing. It's confusing also because the time limits are inconsistent. We've got one hour, 90 minutes, two hours. Four hours and so what does that mean? When where do you go? How do you know where to go if you're a newcomer? And I hear that a lot from my out-of-town clients. One of the items that I have is jury duty parking. So when I had my jury duty boy somebody had said well you know she's on the parking committee yeah exactly eyebrows went huh and the comments that I heard from people and how they navigated coming days in advance to figure out Bangor and then trying to navigate the parking garage which for Many were a nightmare and then when it's full where do they go because you can't park across the street and get reimbursed [22:45] Joseph Leonard: Well can i speak to that just if you're gonna go there because parking garage is never full it's never cool i mean she yeah Amanda just so you know Amanda's the assistant manager she's been here for six years and she's she's yeah she's the night person she'll be the one that represents PCI on these committee meetings from one board. I'm certainly all advisor, but she's been through other department committee meetings. Also, I think it's good to know, because I know we're not voting members, Okay? We're just, we're advisory like the city is. But yeah, we do have jury selection and I've seen the instructions that's sent out. My mother's been on the jury selection and they're very specific. And if you have Google Maps, find the parking garage pretty easily. But I don't disagree with the signage, but that's another whole story. I just wanted to resolve that because I've never followed that. And what was the confusion around the garage? Was it where it is? [23:46] Ann Ross: No, I think it's when you drive in, the first entrance, how to get in. And then when you go in, there is already metered parking. So you go the first layer then you go around to the next layer and it's all those are permitted parking and then people get discouraged because how the question this is what I heard how far up do I have to go to find and is this whole thing did I make a mistake by not having a permit so I [Anya Collette: Think having clear] Clear signs of where the permitted parking ends, how far up, saying available parking is on level two when you come into that place. And for Jerry, where do you actually come in and then where are you? And I know that people can access Google Maps, but some of these people are elderly that don't have that technology or easily get confused when they're under new experiences or under stress. It's stressful to be a juror, stressful to come in there. But I do think that a signage inside, signage outside about how to navigate that parking garage, I know I went in and went, well, where do I park, permit, how [25:13] Matt Altiero: how far up do I go before I can park, and a lot of our visitors, especially not from urban areas, aren't used to parking in parking garage. I mean, we have a parking garage and we deal with the same stuff, right? I don't know how to get into your parking garage. For us, it's like we park here every day. It's really easy. It's right there. It's the entrance. That's how you get in there. And yet we still have constant people just don't understand because this is the one time a year that they use a parking garage. And it's intimidating, especially when you're 70 years old or even younger sometimes and you're just not used to it. So I agree, I think signage we can do better at the casino too, so it's not, but I think just some increased signage to help people understand, to your point, where those zones that they should be going to are, might be helpful. Okay, have we done anything in the past regarding signage of [26:07] Joseph Leonard: availability I mean, in other words, how many spaces are open, yeah, or just directing people to what level there's availability. It's always been, you know [Speaker H (unidentified): we 10 years] ago they spent about $20,000 on that sign that you come in on, so and redirected people, and the only permit signs are actually on before you get to the gates, so I believe the instructions are go get a ticket, enter in, once you get beyond the gate there is no permanent parking, once you get via, once you take the ticket and the gate opens, you go in, there's nothing, there's nothing says permit parking, it's just all pretty parking, but it's, you just have to go until you [26:51] Kelsi Gabrielle Hobbs: find space. Then that's actually great to know, because I have, I have a permit to park in that deck, and the first floor does do the two hour signs and then they go away, so it does give the illusion that the first floor is like two hour only, and the upper part doesn't have that, and when you take the elevator it says second floor and above is for resident parkers only, like that sign on the elevator says something to the tune of, yeah, something like, something for like, it makes it seem like you're supposed to be like someone who has a monthly pass parking on floors two and five which i just like since i have the monthly pass i'm just like i can park wherever i want like until that top row where they zone you off but like that could i 'm like thinking about it now and i'm like oh maybe that is confusing even though it doesn't yeah it doesn't seem like it should be because it does say on the front of the deck like two hours free so that would insinuate that like anywhere in the deck is two hours free, but maybe this, the signs throw [27:57] Joseph Leonard: people off or something. That's a good point. So I'm hearing signages and direction is a probably the biggest takeaway from this conversation. And I think more signage, more direction doesn't necessarily hurt. And actually to your point regarding jury duty, we do have that across the Conduscape walking bridge that is very convenient, but a lot of people are kind of actually not aware of that. And it actually might be to our benefit to on either side of that bridge, sort of giving signage on,, hey, here's all the restaurants, or here's all these businesses, or this is where the courthouse is, and Camden National Base, we think of it that way. And actually, in a minor point that you brought up regarding the two-hour, four-hour parking on the first floor of the parking garage, I won't name names, but there are people who park there overnight, night and they never get ticketed for that, and oh they do. Just a little history on that too, because that was that was a that was a request previous part, because all those first level must be taking out by monthly customers, so we put up all those to our parking just to encourage that to be what we call transient parking, which is our, so those are put up there, you know, purposely to do that. So a lot of these things that you're seeing and like the sign, the elevator was done because we had actual transient people coming in wanting to go up to the top floors. We didn't want people that were not garage customers using the elevators going up and down all day Saturday, so you know these, but I can understand why it'd be confusing, you know, because we're looking at it every day like he said, you know some of these things made sense at the time and okay, I stand corrected. Okay, only some of the people, but I think, again, the takeaway is just more signage never hurts. And one of the things I always try to remind myself is that we're a city of 32,000 people, but on every day during the week, there are 110,000 people in the city. And why they're in the city of Bangor, who knows, but they're here, and we do need to help direct them where to go in the city, where to park, and where to potentially even give a direction if people do get lost and get kind of stuck in that loop. I know that not many people got answered that they were always stuck in that loop, but it is a decent amount of people who do, and I think addressing that with signage is going to not only help that, it will just help with everything related to parking and the more science that we have directing people to the garage, maybe one day will be entirely full. That's the goal, right? Okay, do we want to talk about improving turnover? So folks, seems like the majority of folks didn't think that we needed more. It was just about we have a turnover problem, right? So how do we go about addressing that turnover? Do we want to discuss that? I think that would be acceptable. Any thoughts on that discussion? [31:35] Matt Altiero: I mean, I don't, I don't know that it's that massive of an issue. I mean, a couple of things, right? We can put up as many two-hour parking signs as we want, but as we've discussed with the previous, but like it's unenforceable on the premium times where people are feeling that way. But if somebody that comes downtown often at busy times, yeah, sometimes you got to take a couple loops, but you can almost always find a spot. I don't know that it's, I think it's more of a perception. I think the conversation is more how do we, and maybe that's not this, the job of this committee, but how do we as a community change that perception rather than it really truly being a massive issue? [32:21] Joseph Leonard: But they're very well said. I understand. Any other thoughts on the turnover comments? So okay, I just reflect back on the, we brought the data last meeting about the turnover rates, and they actually are within what a good town would have turnover, right? Is at a good level. I mean, again, it's perception and how that's another whole, and I think honestly we all know [32:56] Ann Ross: when the little, when our little time is up and we see the little white car, we all know the drivers, so you know there's an incentive when we see that for me too. [33:10] Matt Altiero: So we automate it, we get a robot that just goes around 24 hours a day, looks like parking. [33:21] Joseph Leonard: Okay, we want to move on to question two or station two. Sure, station two, question two. Is that station two, how far are you traveling and are other modes feasible? Some of your responses, many are local or within short distance, some use walking or bus. Discussion demand is concentrated in prime areas because most people are coming short distances, right? Do we agree that prime street parking should prioritize short-term users? So meaning that those parking and spaces that are prime, should we prioritize those for those who are coming in and leaving? Thoughts, questions, what's [34:16] Kelsi Gabrielle Hobbs: the idea or like what do we mean by prioritize, like more than having so like shorter than 90 minutes on like Main Street is what you're thinking? [34:29] Joseph Leonard: Or because I think the theme around here is like perspective and promoting such and telling a certain narrative around. So if we say, okay, we're prioritizing, we can't really control it, but we can use our communications to guide people to garages who are here in the area long-term versus short-term prioritize those prime spots. Because those short-term parkers are going to be utilizing our services and our restaurants and we want to make sure that we continue to encourage that because that contributes to economic, our economy, economic development and so on. [35:12] Ann Ross: I would appreciate that and concur with you and especially with our new Main Street America designation. That's part of our responsibility is to prioritize reducing the good language there to make that happen because we want to make Bangor welcoming. Me absolutely and we don't want cranky people moving and not being able to support our local [35:39] Speaker H (unidentified): businesses yeah when you say short term are you referring to 15 minute parking or more like a 60 to 90. So when I hear short term I think 15 minute which is more just low-end just [35:50] Joseph Leonard: parking yeah it doesn't really get to the bed I think we're thinking 60 to 90. Dinner drinks shopping so you can seem like a pretty simple conversation despite the gravity of it just full clarification I'm the one who wrote the points of a five inch parks of living downtown unless there are any other questions or thoughts on question two do, unless staff has anything they'd like to add on, if you want to use the question. Sure. And I think just to, if you guys are thinking about, like, what the plan of action is, we're getting consensus around certain things. And for the next meeting, we'll present ideas on how we go about those decisions, right? How we go about enforcing what we've agreed upon. Next question is, do you use garages or lots? If not, why? Summary, garages are used, but barriers include awareness, lighting, security concerns, and navigation. So we have capacity for off street, but perception and visit visibility are the barriers, right? Yep, yup. [37:18] Ann Ross: Yup, I just hear that all the time, all the time. If it's dark and my female clients who come in, if it's dark and it's sketchy, I'm out. I can't park right by that restaurant, I'm out. [37:37] Joseph Leonard: And if I can just add, I've heard that particular complaint for years at this point. And even though the data shows us that it's incredibly safe downtown, it's one of the safest places in the entire country, and I will always reiterate. That said, though, people's feelings are valid. And one of the things that I thought of this, and I don't know if this committee has a similar thought on it, but just adding lighting to not just the downtown area, but particularly more areas where parking is located even if it's purely decorative it actually does significantly help making people feel more comfortable more safe but also twofold lighting is i'm a big proponent of lighting in cities just because it just makes your city not only more welcoming just makes it look more festive all year round, and it's a, in my opinion, a very good investment to make for multiple purposes. I won't talk too much, and I piggybacked off of your point, but did anyone want to add anything else to this question and some of the responses people had? And I know a lot of these questions kind of relate to each other, but I think it's good for us to recognize some of these topics and the input that citizens gave, maybe ignorantly. [39:12] Matt Altiero: Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I think it's the perception again of safety, and that's going to be a hard one for us to go up against, because it's not just [Speaker H (unidentified): it] is the perception, erroneously in my opinion, of downtown Bangor being, to your point, unsafe. Not much this committee can do to change the general public's opinion, but certainly things like lighting can, help, hopefully at a reasonable cost and not ridiculous, because lighting is expensive, as any of us in this room know. But yeah, I, agree. I think it's a, again, a perception thing. [40:02] Speaker H (unidentified): But I also think to be creative with the lighting. Obviously, the, ideal is that it looks nice and it looks, but from priority one being a security measure, I think as a, working at the building just lighting just lighting up an area makes a world of a difference. And you don't have to add lights, you don't have to have street lamps all around, but you add a couple lights that are good lights that light up a large area and it will make a huge difference I think in the perception and being able to see with more than 100 how to get it will make a good difference as far as the safety security kind of measure. Second to having a security guard at every lot, which is obviously not a realistic thing at the moment. I think lighting is your best kind of immediate solution to help with that perception. [40:54] Matt Altiero: Do we have cameras in the parking garage? And is that, is there signage visible? And I apologize, I don't park in the garage very often, but is there signage? [41:04] Ann Ross: There is, okay. We have a security guard. And this little string lights on the Condescay Walkway are very cool and it makes it feel safe going in there, maybe adding those on the bridge. Those block grants are going out for downtown facades, maybe there's a way of rolling in some funding with that or to look at how those businesses are selected in terms of lighting. I know that's out of our purview, but again, we want Bayward to be welcoming and if people won't park like down by Bartholomew's, then they're not going to go to that spot. If Harlow Street, if this is the only place where they can go to 11 Central and it's not lit on Harlow, they're not going to go to 11 Central, they're going to go home. [42:04] Kelsi Gabrielle Hobbs: okay did [42:07] Joseph Leonard: everyone have a express their thoughts on this did anyone want to speak anything watch others stop okay i am taking notes so i mean it's just great to have alignment and then we can discuss internally about how we move forward okay so question four So if you're an owner or an employer of a downtown business, where do you park and why? So overall, what this sort of seemed like was the consensus was the biggest issues or concerns with parking downtown town and what they thought the solutions are it really seemed like that most of the focus went on downtown hammond columbia street and the downtown barton garage was the primary focus of the conversation but i thought it's so interesting that they all that one of the comments was it was crowded parking at the parking garage which obviously like they park there every day it's Never crowded there, but it might be a perception issue. I mean, parking garages are, you know, that's, that's a huge issue because it's a person, you get in there and you feel like, you know, the same issue, right? You get in there to feel confined, and that garage, I've been to lots of other cities, that one's a nice layout compared to some of them. Some of them are really small, but I think, I think the perception of the parking garage is just, it's just hard to get that. It's again, it's a perception issue, but maybe that's what they're feeling, especially like on a concert night or something. There's a lot of activity there. I can feel, aren't they are one of [44:03] Kelsi Gabrielle Hobbs: those giant trucks? Yeah, I'm just close to the corners for some reason, and so you're always like, yeah, I hope no one's coming. Yeah, and [44:16] Joseph Leonard: I as someone who used to play the parking game for three years being a resident downtown. There are certainly certain parts that definitely do get hit up and abused more than others. That Columbia Street is, I know because I used to do it, is one that is heavily abused. And so one of the things that, and again, I don't know exactly how to enforce that because parking is always going to be in demand in downtown. But how do we change the traffic flow and that idea of people in downtown to not park as long there because for from and I'm sorry, I'm taking over this conversation, but like I literally was one of these problem residents, I know how they think is playing that parking game is very much something that residents feel very comfortable doing because the tickets compared to how much a monthly pass is at the garage you can basically get what like four tickets and that's the equivalent of a month's worth of a parking at the parking garage and so one of the things that I've tried to bring up is maybe revisiting a conversation on what those overall monthly charges are for residents of Bangor itself, because it's not about making the money per se, in my opinion, it's more so making sure people have that traffic flow. And if you make it so that people, that the risk is too great to play the parking game rather, and it's just cheaper and safer to just get a parking garage pass that let's say it's 30 a month or potentially even lower than that would have incentivized me personally years ago to just take in a monthly garage pass. But that's just me. I don't know if anyone else has any thoughts on this particular one. Well just as a little bit of back history on the parking tickets, I've been here for 25 years and I don't remember the last time the parking tickets changed. Who's responsible for that? Is that city, the city as a whole? So I mean the price, the price it's 15, it's 15 or 15 dollars for overtime, 15, yes [46:58] Speaker H (unidentified): not that we want to park more but that would be the other right [47:05] Joseph Leonard: That's the other option, of course, if this committee wanted to say, propose that change and, of course, like you guys can make that proposal and it might be the one to send it. [47:18] Speaker H (unidentified): Yeah, I'm looking for a lot of positive feedback on that. [47:21] Joseph Leonard: But statistically speaking, you're 100% right, that is another way to also curb it as well. [47:26] Matt Altiero: But also, I mean, you said 20 something years and it hasn't changed, I mean. [47:31] Joseph Leonard: I don't know with a lot I mean it may have we didn't what we've been doing parking enforcement since 2018 but I mean I've been coming to these it may have been gone up from 12 to 15 but I mean it would be good the police department would have as they used to do the parking history of it. I know it's been 13 since 2017 so I don't know what it was like before. Anyways well part of [47:57] Ann Ross: of the question was business owner businesses and the residents and as a business owner who does not have access to parking behind my business I am one of the people that play the parking game and then also try to park other places and I like the idea of creating places or parking areas where the employees can park so that they're not out there playing. It's expensive if you're an employee or a small business owner. Paying $70 a month is a lot of money. That takes a chunk out of your paycheck. And I see why, especially on Harlow Street, a lot of the workers in those restaurants park there and they are moving. And we've got the, not Harlow, Franklin Street, I'm sorry. The residents and the workers play that game on that street and I think we really need to take a look at where can we help residents and business owners and employees that don't have parking in behind there to have a reasonable place [49:08] Joseph Leonard: To park, that's actually a valid point that you bring up, is we do have a lot of employees that don't live in Bangor or live in a greater Bangor area that you have to travel in, and you know, if you're working like a dishwasher job, or if you're working a front desk a job, it's it is very inconvenient to have a parking garage pass, and we might want to look into similar to giving a discount to a residence for the garage if you can to show your employment is with a especially a downtown business, I mean. I think that would be in our favor to actually awarding employees with, I just kind of, do you have something to say? Yeah, well, I just want to again, it's a history, I don't the old person here, but I mean, this was brought up about, it was probably 10 to 15 years ago, and this very issue, and this committee actually, our committee recommended that we start discounting some lots, and we have, and so there are there are lots in the city that the rooftop of the garage is only 35, this was in direct response to. This issue was that there was a lot of employers who pay for their for employees department, I mean, we have huge accounts that pay for all that part, and the same if you went to Portland or somebody else, there's you pay for your employee market, that's part of what you do if you live in that, but there are a lot of people who don't, and there are a lot of employees that don't, so the committee decided to make there's a lot on Court Street, which is just behind here, it's only for their five thirty five. Dollars a month, and the rooftop of the garage is only three five dollars a month, and other lots are between that and that, yes, you have to walk in the parking garage, it's just an elevator ride, so but again, I just wanted you to understand that there this discussion was has been had before, and that was the response was let's make some of these lots that aren't utilized heavily and discount them, would you say that more of the issue is the knowledge of this then to employees that this is an option. For them, I think that what you'll find is there are. [51:30] Matt Altiero: Businesses that are paying or maybe not or offer it and the employees are not taking up on it because of the lock right there are employees, especially a lot of times female employees, that maybe are working over on Main Street, right? And so that they don't feel like walking at two in the morning after they've closed the bar down to the parking garage because of the perceived safety issues. And so they're, whether their employer is paying for the lot or not, they're not going to partake in it because They want to be close to going close so that they don't have to make that walk. So I think discounting a lot is great for your daytime employees, but your bartenders and your servers and your folks that are working late at night, I think it's less attractive to them because it on a snowy January freezing cold night and again, it's 2 in the morning, you just shut down the bar. That's a long walk. It feels like a long walk. It's not, but it feels like a long walk. And so I think you're always going to have a percentage that are not going to partake. I also would have concerns with trying to do some kind of thing where you show you work here and you can have, because that's just opening up for a lot of fraud and a lot of dishonesty. Dealing with dishonest people regularly. They will find ways and it will end up biting us in this, in my opinion. [53:07] Joseph Leonard: Mark, what's the availability of rooftop parking? We've got 53 spaces open the roof. The Core Street lodges, is all three you have 21 spaces available in Core Street. Yeah, so a lot of these discounted lots aren't utilized even in Abbott Square is 70 but the one right next to it is 50 58 so at lower Abbott Square Main Square so another 100 feet and you've got 58 you've just saved yourself $1. [53:46] Kelsi Gabrielle Hobbs: So just I park in the garage, and I considered the rooftop parking because it was cheaper, but I so badly did not want to have to pay to still scrape off my car and every single day drive up to the fifth floor and scan in a second time. So I find the rooftop a bit inconvenient, which I think is why. It's super discounted, obviously. So just to like make that point that like it is available, but it's also the least convenient parking. If you have to do it every day, which most people would, if you're buying a permit, you're going up five windy things a day and that's just the least favorite thing. [54:32] Joseph Leonard: At some point we, I don't know if this is a good time or not, but just a step back to get the bigger view of the parking. Maybe you are aware, not aware of a parking, and the parking is an enterprise fund. What that means, the city's parlance, is that it's self-contained. It's no general funds come in, none of the funds from the parking fund go out to the general fund, okay? So everything that's within the parking fund has to be financed from parking revenue. If the parking revenue is not there, then we don't, we don't get new lights, we don't get security cameras, we don't get paving, we don't build a new parking garage, which was $30,000 of space. So I know there's nothing here. And I've never heard this from the city that, you know, the parking is not a revenue generator for the city, because it's not, it has to stay within the park. And I think that's probably wherever the fathers were at that point, mothers created that was so that didn't become a either a way to grab money from that pot or to start, you know, having to fund it from there, from the from some of the taxpayer. The other thing is that a lot of the partners that are using these parking lots are not Bangor residents, so your funding is coming from people outside of Bangor, so I just, I'd like to keep that in mind so that, and we're running always on a level playing field, so you know if we have a surplus of money it goes right back into capital improvements like where the parking garage just so you get an idea, it costs 250 000 a year just in repairs now to keep that thing going because it's 35 years old, so it's a quarter million dollars just to keep it repaired, that's not to operate it. So I say all this because there's always this let's discount park, let's do this, let's give away free parking. Can't do it, I mean you can do it, but there is no, there is a cost and somebody's going to replace that boss. Do you guys keep the ticket revenue or does that go to the city? Everything, we don't do anything, we don't, we don't keep anything, we get a management fee, a flat management fee, but then [56:50] Matt Altiero: let me rephrase that, does the revenue from ticketing parking tickets, parking tickets goes into the parking fund? It does go into the parking, correct. Okay, so do you guys have statistics on like the, I assume you do, the volume of tickets you're giving and how much revenue that generates, and is there an opportunity to look at the volume of tickets and what a potential increase to ticketing that may help offset a decrease in some sort of monthly parking rate so that it is revenue neutral? Yeah, and I think the tricky part of that [57:27] Joseph Leonard: Formula is, it's a big idea behind the parking fees is to scourge people from getting parking tickets, is to keep parking. So does the increase in parking tickets, it's not a one-for-one. You can't say if we increase, if we have 12,000 parking tickets, we increase at five dollars, we're gonna get this right, $60,000. No, it's not going to work because the actual, hopefully the violators will go down. So you're not [57:56] Kelsi Gabrielle Hobbs: creating as much. So yeah, but then you're also hoping at the same time that the discount in monthly parking makes more people want to pay for monthly permits, which then ups your revenue in some way, ideally, and it's actually their same way. But it's all depends on price, elasticity of demand, [58:21] Anya Collette: Sorry to jump right in, very late. I'm Anya, I don't know if you remember me from last time as a planning officer. I've been listening to this, I've been driving here from Portland. I wanted to bring up, it was brought up by somebody at the public meeting, the idea of paid on street parking. Just wanted to bring that up for feedback. We wanted to bring that to you at your next meeting some more information about that, but just because I feel like it might address some of the comments that I've been hearing so far in that if it costs more to park on the street and then we lowered prices, for example, for the monthly passes for the off street parking lots and made it, you know, maybe so that people could park, maybe not on the roof of the parking garage, and maybe if people had to pay more for that on street parking than the off street lots, that would help incentivize that a little more, and then help kind of keep that turnover going on the street. The other thing we heard from someone at the parking meeting was that, you know, something they've run into is that they're going to the salon, for example, and you know, they might be there for longer than two hours, they might have to go out and move their car, versus if they had that app, you know, to pay for their parking, they could just get on their app and extend that time, and the other benefit too to that you talked about earlier, awareness of where you could park. I think if you had that kind of app, you could see, you know, where the parking spots downtown that are available for you to park in. So I just wanted to bring that up, you know, maybe we discuss here, maybe we discuss it in the next meeting, but I just want to point that out too. [1:00:00] Joseph Leonard: Thank you for bringing that up. That was actually almost way more than the words I had on that, but I was going to say, like, having almost like, I don't think we need a feasibility study on the garage itself, but knowing what those, what that bare minimum is in order to maintain that enterprise fund status would certainly, I think, help this committee in the future to know what are those restrictions? Like, how far can we actually get to that net zero in a way? Like, what are the limits to the garage overall? And the only reason I say that is because we can also look at it from the opposite end of the spectrum. Like, how far can we push this? and what is that happy medium in terms of taking in that revenue while also making sure that we can encourage residents to use the garage more and reduce that i 'm sorry increase the turnover for parking spaces along the streets as well did someone have their hand up i think i over spoke on someone no i don't know but i do want to say just to be [1:01:19] Matt Altiero: clear too, I don't know if we want the enterprise fund to just operate like at the bare minimum, so just to be right, because I hear like we just spent a million dollars on our parking garage for caulking. Like, it is keeping a parking garage upright is unbelievably expensive, and so, and it's only getting more expensive, so we can't think of it as a we want to run on the baseline. We've got to make sure that we're building in, and we've got to make sure we're building in for future inflation and things of that nature, which was why I think talking about the parking tickets in particular, knowing that hasn't been reviewed or assessed in gosh only knows how long, you know, it needs to keep up with the cost of everything. And so I think for me, it would be helpful to, and I think this kind of plays off what you were saying, Council Leonard, is to kind of have those, an idea of those options, right? Is it street side parking, paid parking? And what is the cost of that? Right? I mean, apps aren't free. What's their cut? What does that look like? You know, is it an offset through parking enforcement versus low and lowering parking permits? But just having more information on what we think makes sense or what we think our options, I think would help for us to have a more knowledgeable conversation to ensure that we're getting the enterprise fund to a point where we can do the things that we need to do, but also the things that we're talking about like lighting, because lighting isn't cheap either. Nothing is. [1:03:02] Joseph Leonard: If I can, this sounds like a really important topic to actually have for an upcoming parking committee meeting. If everyone's okay with this, I would like to have a more expanded conversation on the feasibility of the parking garage and certain plans approach of what we think would be best to see. I think you're right that the tickets as they are right now, I hate saying this, but we probably do have to increase the minimum $5 between one to 20. I hate saying that, but it's probably true at this point. But that's not the only thing that we can talk about. [1:03:47] Matt Altiero: $15 is cheaper than a beer half the bar is in. [1:03:50] Joseph Leonard: That's insane. See how much do you know how much the park can take this time important Great move the bank more right [1:04:04] Speaker H (unidentified): And I'm going to save it for another meeting so anecdotally I just think even now of three street parking in the city is probably I don't know the numbers but compared to any other city it's just like it surprised me every time I come down in town it's like oh every parking here if you're parking there I don't expect it I expect to have to pay anywhere you're going for street parking so I think it's it's look it's worthwhile taking a serious look at paid parking there's a lot of questions and Answers to go along with that but I just think the fact that there is in that it's great that we have that offer here [1:04:38] Joseph Leonard: I think it's unique in my opinion well piggyback off of that I'm sorry but you're 100 right that is a huge privilege that we have it in this city and I think it is important for us to recognize that we've been so fortunate to have such lenient parking rules and ordinances in lawsburg so long and again we have 110 000 people that come to the city every day and we do have to recognize that we're not just a small town anymore we are a regional player and other people heavily rely on us and it's Important to recognize that there is a huge responsibility that we have to making sure that we also serve the needs of those people that do business in bangkok and have their livelihood as well so it's a very good point thank you for bringing that up I know we kind of really hit that topic pretty hard but anyone have any other thoughts on that before we move on to the next question okay do you want to give us to the next one or was That the last one, so those were all the questions. But do you want to talk about submission, that last submission? What you want me to think about? Sorry, I don't, there was a, there was a submission, it wasn't a quick an answer to a question nonetheless. Oh yeah, sorry, you want to [1:06:07] Anya Collette: wow, sure, because the members of the public gave it to us to show that, so we just included [1:06:17] Joseph Leonard: that because so the gist of it was that we don't have a parking problem we have an attraction problem because when people are attracted to downtown or any areas they're going to make their way to find parking right it's like a desperation kind of thing right do how do we feel about the fact that we need to do is that a true statement do we need to make more attractions [1:06:44] Matt Altiero: How do you guys feel about that? I respectfully disagree on both counts. I don't think we have a parking problem, I think we've, we've talked about that quite a bit, I mean we have an impatience problem sometimes, but I don't think we have a parking problem, and as far as an attraction problem, we have 110 000 people coming to Bangor every day, I don't think that's the issue either, we have world class like facilities, cross center, waterfront, we have a casino, we have a butcher in the Baker who's now nationally recognized, like we have plenty of attractions, not an issue in my opinion, and I don't think parking is a massive issue, are there opportunities, absolutely, other opportunities for more attractions, absolutely, but I don't think [1:07:36] Joseph Leonard: either is an issue personally. I think this kind of, I read some of those comments and I kind of giggled because we talked about this last meeting when I said I was on these committees 20 years ago, and if parking was the problem for everybody downtown, and there was just as much, there was more, there was just as much parking then as there is now, and yet now the city is thriving, I mean really literally thriving, and yet we have the same amount of parking, and I don't hear as much as we used to have as much. The first time you told that to me, my mind was blown. It is a strange concept, but it really, that part of it is definitely true. People are wanting to get some, we all know it. We go to some place, to, you know, Boston or Portland, and we want to get somewhere, we want to go to a bread sauce game. You'll find parking, you're not going to like where you park, but you'll find park. Because why? Because you get a little red sauce. And so the attraction does resolve the parking. But that doesn't, but like you say, the perception issue is still going to be there. Yeah, okay. Unless anyone wants to say anything else on that lovely common. Citizen provider, why don't we move on to other new business. So we had some requests for discussion from new members, and the first point is we gave our two thoughts on each other's feet. Do you want to start the discussion, either on or here? [1:09:15] Anya Collette: Well, I guess I was leaving it at that. Sure,. [1:09:20] Ann Ross: Sorry, I didn't know that we would have all these other things to deal with, and I just thought, well, I'll just throw out some ideas as a place to go, because I have a lot of ideas about parking and making bank or welcoming. I'm an investment guy, so there are right at the, on this side near the central street place where that road comes in, there are two ADA spots that are rarely used. I've been here for seven years. They're rarely used. And I don't know what they're, if that's something that the law offices used, requested, or if it's an egress to come over to this building. I don't know. But I have observed over my seven years that it is rarely used by people with an ADA designated placard or license. What I see are people that use it that have that don't have that designation, and then my favorite are the mechanical services people, the delivery people, that pull out their handicap decal on their windshield to do their work, and then they remove it when they leave. That's my favorite. So I was thinking that, do we need two handicapped, could we remove one of them to free up some parking along Harlow Street for folks that want to make use of the library or are doing the loop, and they could sneak in to take advantage of whatever is on Central Street. [1:11:05] Joseph Leonard: I guess before we open up to committee members, there's a question for, hopefully you can answer this on, now that I understand what are, what are the requirements [1:11:15] Anya Collette: For us regarding parking, well, a little different for a downtown. It's for like a commercial development, usually for off-street parking lots. There's like a table where we require, you know, one space per 25 regular spaces. But in this situation, it's kind of hard to say. I think it's more like, where's the need? And I will say we did hear from people at that meeting that they felt there needs to be more ADA spaces on like Main and Central Street. So maybe if the committee does want to recommend removing one of these spaces, maybe we put another space where [1:11:53] Joseph Leonard: there is that need on main street so is it more so that there's just a total allotment number that the city has to have and it i don't want to say it doesn't matter where it is but as long as we have that ad required space it we can shuffle certain spaces around yeah i don't know [1:12:14] Anya Collette: that we have a required amount downtown. I mean, I'd have to look in that more, but I don't think there is. I think we just have to provide that service where we have a need. Yeah, oh, okay. [1:12:26] Joseph Leonard: Yes, please. I was going to say, any committee members have thoughts on ADA on-counters? [1:12:34] Ann Ross: It's just on this side. I don't know the library side. It's on this side. This video. On the law office side. Okay. There's two of them. There's, you know, there's the block with the law offices and then the next block of building. And there's an alleyway in between, and they're located on either side of that alley, and my guess is that having, definitely keeping the one that is closer to the intersection and directly in front of the law office building, and well, the building services now the law offices and the Penobscot Theater children's program, and I know what happens now, those slots become a drop off for after school programming, quick, I'm going in and out, or you know, they're going in to pay their rent upstairs. There's just, they're in and out on those handicapped, I [1:13:44] Matt Altiero: mean if there's no statutory reason why we wouldn't be able to remove one, if they're not being used, and it's an opportunity to free up a space, I [1:13:55] Joseph Leonard: would have no issue with it. [1:13:58] Matt Altiero: My other follow-up to that would be, though, I know we heard it at the public hearing, but are any businesses downtown sharing that they need additional handicapped spaces? Is there anybody on Main Street that's actually expressed outside of that public meeting where, hey, look, guys, we're having an issue, we really need some more access, or is that another perception thing? [1:14:22] Kelsi Gabrielle Hobbs: The theater said that they needed another spot. The theater does. [1:14:27] Matt Altiero: They have two in front right now. No, they're not. They do. They have no, there's one in front of Portland Pie for sure, I asked. [1:14:42] Joseph Leonard: You do, we have specific parking data on the ADA spots around the city and how often they are used, or were they all sort of clumped together with all of the parking the same when we did that parking stuff? Yeah, we wouldn't be able to break, I don't have any time to break it out, I certainly [1:15:06] Ann Ross: don't mean to take away an ADA parking spot, and I have begun to, when I looked at this and thought, well, you know, sometimes that street is really jammed with cars, and I see, I see what happens on that street walking around to look at potential other businesses where having an ADA would be really important, and because I see where some of them are in a spot like, oh, that's like a long way to get to that crosswalk for that ADA, and maybe a look at where the spots are located and how we look at the distribution of where those go might be a better way to address my little freeing up a parking spot on Harlow, I think. [1:15:58] Matt Altiero: That's a fair point, right, I mean just like the parking ticket prices, right, when's the last time we really looked at where their low, where the ADA spots are located compared to the changes in the business dynamics of downtown? I mean, a lot has changed in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, and who knows when the last time those were really evaluated. It may be beneficial to take a look at that to see, are they distributed appropriately? I will note, you know, potentially this is [1:16:31] Anya Collette: something we can do in the shorter term, but I will note we are about to work on an ADA transition plan for our public facilities and buildings, and I think we could throw this in there too. [1:16:41] Joseph Leonard: So okay, that's actually very helpful with that address your concerns, yes, okay, yeah, I'm just [1:16:50] Ann Ross: again, I want Bangor to be welcoming, we're on a, I think a little resurgence here, Bangor is up and coming, and it's best to be proactive and really take a look at what we're, we're needing. I looked at some of the requirements on the Main Street America and we're certainly moving in that direction to address those areas, but we want people coming into Bangor and want to make sure that we've got our bases covered and provide what we need to, so I'm, I love that, okay, awesome. [1:17:22] Joseph Leonard: I think we kind of covered that topic pretty well, do we want to move on to City [1:17:30] Ann Ross: Parking sign placement. Well, that's my little agenda on top of one of those ADA signs. As when I put this item in, was a tiny little sign that says parking. When I walked by today, a new sign has been put in, and one of the lawyers told me, oh yeah, they had to replace that just recently. The problem with the sign is it's a little bigger now. So it used to be the same size as the ADA sitting on top of it. Now it's like this, and it has an arrow. The problem is it is a misleading sign because it is by the alleyway. People who don't know Bangor think that alleyway goes into a public parking area, and so they go down the alley and find a gate and realize I can't park here, and then they're backing back up that alley to back out onto Main Street. I would like to suggest that either that parking sign be moved closer to the [Joseph Leonard: actual intersection or] if that's the sign where we want that to be to say parking city parking garage with an address, but it's misleading. Just wanted [1:18:54] Joseph Leonard: to bring that attention to somebody. I mean, the signage is handled by public works, so I'm not sure exactly. I think it, I wish, I can't remember the guy's name. [1:19:06] Ann Ross: I'm so sorry, we had a discussion about something. Yeah, the one of the working trucks the other day had run into that ADA sign with the signs, and somehow his, the top part of his truck destroyed the little sign that was on top. And so they replaced it with this sign that's this big. I have a picture if you want to see it. My concern is that it is misleading because people are going down that alley. I can take a look and if it's something [1:19:42] Joseph Leonard: I can, you can approve. [1:19:47] Ann Ross: And then if they want, if we want to direct them to that, then it's also hard to see that you come upon you, oh it's a sign, and that's why, and I mean I don't stop. [1:19:57] Joseph Leonard: The parking signage, that's a tough one, right? And I think the signs that are up there now with the blue pea were something that was developed by this committee 15 years ago, and I, and is it the best solution? I don't know. I mean, I'm not a parking designer. I mean, I rent parking facilities. I'm not, that would be a more design feature thing, and so I don't know, and maybe that might be a tough topic in itself. Yeah, and I mean not no, but like I think you made a valid point in that I think that is outside the scope of our purview for this committee, and but by to your point, we should refer that to public works or engineering or whichever staff thinks is the appropriate route to go. Would that satisfy? Yeah, okay, well, yeah, for me anyway. Yeah, I think so. [1:20:54] Ann Ross: No, I think so. It's just, it's a concern when I see people backing back up that alleyway onto a busy road. It's wrong, okay. [1:21:06] Joseph Leonard: Unless anyone has any more thoughts on that, do we want talk about where, well, [1:21:18] Ann Ross: we've touched on that a little bit and I think maybe that's something that we can wrap around into the other parking areas. But as my business is right on that corner, trying to look at how we can accommodate business owners like myself and workers and residents where to park, and there's three layers of the Abbott Square. There's the public pay per hour parking, then there's the permitted parking, and then in the back end is the [1:21:53] Joseph Leonard: resident overnight parking oh actually that whole back is the same there's no division yeah there's no well there's a very clear sign this side the sign was yeah i know the sign was put there by public works so that they could have a designated area where people during a snow band man we're supposed to part be on that side I 'll be right with you on the fact that 's not a great design but I don't know what the I mean that's a snow that's that's a snow band kind of thing and the idea was the I think the idea was Public Works could plow the front part without running into cars. I mean after stuff from all the back, but I don't think that's even been, I don't know, that's that's a something we have to discuss internally because I don't think that's, it's not well. But as far as the operating part, we just have two parking, we have the front which is transient hourly park with the meters and then you have the back, okay, it's [1:22:58] Ann Ross: underutilized, it's grossly underutilized. And again, I think one of the things that we had talked about many meetings ago was to start looking at where there was underutilized parking, like the Court Street parking. I didn't realize that was $35 and I thought this might be a great spot for those workers on that are parking on Franklin Street to have access to that back end of that parking at a reasonable price as well as residents because it is, there's one or two, one car, there's always one car I think there's a lot of space there for people to do a lot of things. [1:23:43] Joseph Leonard: So when Bangor Savings used to have their offices right on Franklin Street for many years and Abbott Square was the primary part and they also had a Franklin place that has the condominiums at the residence and some of the school house apartments actually part they had passes back there but I don't know that 's as relevant as it is used to be so I think that we lost it yeah they've lost some businesses so I think there may be in discussion staff about and then the parking store improvement aren't that's a whole but maybe so I think there is there is that she 's correct that the epic square is not utilized like it used to be it's underutilized and i one thing i will present to the committee is in the past we've made recommendations to the prices of parking this is like a little sheet of how i can pass this is kind of like we haven't so in order to adjust our revenue to meet the demands We have been reading face the price of the park. We haven't done a price increase since we were doing every couple of years. So this is a matter of discussion. Maybe that as we get closer to a time that we could start making these recommendations that maybe there are some lots that need to go down rather than up. But there are some like the Columbia street debt. we've had people come in there say I pay $100 a month like as long as I get a space I don't care I park without hey you know so again we need this is it's a supply-demand machine right so but this gives you but I mean and that's a good discussion point is to say is you know given the fact that there's not the business anymore is that a good time to say let's let's take down the Abbott square pricing to encourage more parkers but splitting the lot again there is a logistical issue to that Because like in the park the rooftop department that set of gates and we couldn't do that, there's you know electronics and stuff and there's costs associated with it to doing something like that. We could do it, but again we get to think about, we get to understand why public works what they're thinking is as far as the snow paintings. There's always like these little tentacles of things that are all kind of interrelated. Yeah, thank you for your patience. [1:26:23] Kelsi Gabrielle Hobbs: No it's fine for the, is that the one that has the farmer's market and does that cause any because that's on sunday. Yeah, but if you're saying you want to put residents parking there then there's a, it goes all the way, it doesn't take up parking spots is what i'm saying is what you're. [1:26:43] Ann Ross: Saying no, okay, big break there, it is, it's just a real portion, it's like if it's back there, issue with the farmer's market, no, not at all, okay, great, no, it's just, you know, that is so close to downtown, and then that under utilization for the adjacent one. [1:27:17] Anya Collette: Sorry, it's kind of related, but not exactly related. I just remembered that speaking of resident parking, one of the key things that we heard from some of the residents that live downtown is that they don't have dedicated parking spots for their residents. So it's permit parking spaces, and so they sometimes like at the Columbia Street lot parking garage is full, then they can't park there even though they live right there. So that was one of the key things that we heard, and I just wanted to, you know, bring that up. [1:27:54] Joseph Leonard: Well, the Columbia Street, that lot always is, that it's a tough lot, it's a tough lot because they're, it's tough, it would be best to have it gated I think for the people can use it is a good, but it's so small and compact that putting a gate in would actually start removing spaces to do it. So if you have, I mean, I've looked at that, I keep looking at that like, wow, what can we do here, yeah, I. [1:28:27] Ann Ross: Think that is a discussion for, because there are people that want to look downtown, it's attractive to look downtown, and it brings that pedestrian traffic that we all love, but I think that's also a discussion for what are the landlords, where's the landlord responsibility in terms of negotiating with the city where to put those people to park, and I'm not sure we can solve all of that, but I feel like a collaboration between some of those landlords that don't have the parking for their tenants, what. Do they have to offer to help offset those costs, is that going to be the responsibility of the tenant to make that, or are they going to contribute, and where can we put the overflow, because you're right, not everybody can park in those cushy spots there. [1:29:15] Anya Collette: Yeah, I think their main gripe was that, you know, they're paying for a parking pass, but sometimes they don't have a guaranteed parking spot, was their main issue, I think that, I think. [1:29:24] Joseph Leonard: For that a lot specifically, I can imagine it being the times when we get calls, yeah, are when there's a snow band, yeah, so then one of the places that are supposed to go to snowman is Columbia Street lot, well now you've got people just coming in from all over the city going into that one area, and there's not enough spot for that, so I think the snowman thing, I don't know, it's. [1:29:46] Anya Collette: Going to come here at some point because you're right and that was a big issue we heard about too and something I was going to talk about with public works. But one idea that was mentioned was having the downtown parking vans in zones rather than having a band as a whole downtown. I think that might help a lot with that issue but again something that I just we want to talk [1:30:07] Joseph Leonard: about public works to see if that's feasible so it'd be an interesting discussion to have. Yeah okay I'm not sure if we came to a solution regarding added parking and it is pretty tricky overall but do you think oh I'm sorry park did you no I think I think I think we should come back we that and come back and we typically give something to the to city staff saying these are recommendations for pricing and I think we're due for this summer so let's let's talk about that and we can well what typically happens is I give it to the Gita and it goes to the economic development but they give it to here but I don't know there's any reason to go through that little exercise that usually ends up back at the parking committee so that you all can discuss the prices and to say hey let's look good and this doesn't look good. I think that would be I mean we can give you some ideas I think we do need to make some adjustments to some of [1:31:12] Matt Altiero: these lots but maybe it's time to start thinking in directions can we do that in conjunction with looking at the enforcement stuff. I mean again I think yeah sure we're getting into revenue avenue as a whole we can we can I think the conversations play off of each other and so I think it would behoove us to have all that information so that we can make a an informed [1:31:41] Joseph Leonard: decision yes that would give us a really good foundation for multiple conversations as well [1:31:48] Matt Altiero: It would also be helpful to have the information on street side paid parking at the same like I think all of that is really one conversation, right? Pricing here, street side pricing, parking in Fort, I think all of that's truly one conversation and it's trying to come to an agreement on what the right mix of those things could be potentially, or might not be. [1:32:13] Joseph Leonard: I mean, it does make sense to combine all those topics together because they all play off of each other. What would, I guess that, what would it, how much time would it take for you guys to sort of prepare for that company I was just thinking that 's that's extremely comprehensive i think we need to do it in phases right like the commitment is that we will talk about all of those perhaps we want to prioritize the fitness meeting which i mean we can i think we can come back with one and then just make sure that we continue the conversation and the follow-up because i already have plans to meet with team department discuss some of these things i would just ask the group what is it that you want to prioritize i know that they all come together, but then we would, I mean, I would think [1:33:01] Matt Altiero: it would take some time to study that and to get that information. Agreed, is there a need to make a decision on any one of these more urgently? Or I mean, and again, it's a committee, so I'm in my opinion, I think it almost behooves us to wait if we have to, try to get the information, because I do think it all plays together. And for me, I think if we have to wait three, four, five, whatever months to be able to collect all of this information so that we can have a proper, comprehensive conversation rather than piecemealing it, because I worry about when we start piecemealing it, we make a decision here and then three months down the road we get additional information and now this initial decision isn't the best decision anymore and now we're making another change potentially or we're operating inefficiently so [1:33:57] Joseph Leonard: Another, my history lesson is so the committee 10, 15 years ago did recommend putting paid parking on the street and there's a lot of work coming into that, there's a lot of work to figure out where zones and where you can park and what the pricing is and ultimately the council decided not to do it. So we, I think if you go to the paid parking on street, you need to have a good, they can't just be, this is my opinion, this committee, you need to have the downtown businesses all on board and you know the council has released their blessing so that there is some momentum going there. I don't know what them, what the feeling is there right now. I don't know from every business owner downtown, but maybe the downtown business group could do [1:34:48] Matt Altiero: There will be pushback for sure, but that's where having the information would allow those of us that are on the board of Downtown Bangor Partnership and that are out there having those conversations, that's the MO. We need to have a conversation if it's the right thing for the city, right? We've got to have the right data points to be able to say we get why you're pushing back on this, but here is why it's important, instead of just saying we're going to throw this out here because we need more money. For the Enterprise or we're putting this out here so that we can just cut the pricing over here. Why are we cutting the pricing? Well, we're kind of the pricing over here to make sure that your servers and your dishwashers and your team members are able to get affordable parking and right, and here's what it's going to do. Instead of paying 30 now they're going to get it for 15 because we're doing this, which is going to make your [1:35:36] Joseph Leonard: your business a little easier to hire for you. We can massage that. Mm-hmm. How long ago was that study? Years ago it was done. It wasn't an in-depth thing, it was just it's [1:35:59] Matt Altiero: gonna be somewhere in the records. I just, but I would say it would [1:36:05] Anya Collette: at least a couple months before we can review that comprehensive info, but I don't think that [1:36:11] Joseph Leonard: that should, I'm sorry, I don't think that should stop the convening of this group because then we'll lose touch and we'll lose momentum. I will say slow is smooth and smooth is fast, so however much time you guys need to gather that data, I want to make sure that if we are going to tackle this subject, the committee has all the proper information to utilize to make those decisions and recommendations to go forward to potentially counsel. So definitely give us updates. If you have any, if you want to push that conversation forward, I think this entire committee would very much appreciate that whenever you guys do. So the comprehensive study would be the paid parking study, ticket revenue, right, and increase of ticket prices. And then there's a third, 88 monthly parking. No, I think as far as impact on, I mean, we can, the tickets and the monthly parking we can do ourselves, really, not this, doesn't take that long, so that end we can do pretty quickly and the impact and what it will take. I think the on-street parking is going to be the one that I don't know how you evaluate it and because you're looking at it just strictly from a revenue standpoint, because if it is, then that's one way to do it. If you're looking at it to increase turnover, that's another way to look at it. So I don't know, I don't never really know those things. Those are very good questions. I will trust staff to go in the right direction for the committee. Does anyone want to add anything else? I know that was a very in-depth conversation, I think a much needed one. Steph, did you have any questions for us? Not right now. Okay, I know we already talked a lot about the parking garage item before, but was there any additional items you want to bring forward? No, and I'm sorry that I [1:38:31] Ann Ross: piecemealed out all the issues like this i 'm sorry no it just was signage and so really kind of the two of those the jury selection and the parking I mean we talked a lot about the parking but here's what here's what happens I know you feel like there's a lot of parking in that parking garage but when there's jury selection and maybe you guys know this or you don't know this when it's a big jury they come and park over in Abbott Square so then there is in the page you know the big open part and it's a real problem for people who are trying to go to the library because they just, it's this happened last week and it was full of jury people, was the parking lot absolutely full. Yeah, so the business owners that had come in and the people that work in the law office, and I'm assuming that the city also pays for some of the employees department park there, they got there in the morning and then the jury duty and I, you know, people coming into my studio going there's no place to park, what's going on in town, and we quickly realized that there were jurors that were parking there wanting to know how to get over to the, you know, what was [1:39:57] Joseph Leonard: what was the quickest way to get to them. It's interesting because we do have for the Abbott Square, the U.S. District Court does validate parking and have a square in the upper block and then the court on Exchange Street to Pickering Square. So it's two different things, that's why I'm trying to isolate, so because if they are actually utilizing to the point of being fully occupied, then we need to have a conversation with the U.S. District Court to decide, you know, I [1:40:28] Ann Ross: I didn't have time to really distort all that was all coming. No, that's what I was trying to talk. There were a number of people that were, we're talking. Yeah, I'm here for jury or I'm here for, I'm here for Judy, Jerry. So yeah, that it was shocking to me to see that. Yeah, let's not as a business. Yeah, and then you know that it does happen, it does impact. So looking at how we help those people that are there for jury duty in advance, and I know that we, because I got my little math, how we help them, Whichever building they're going to, know where it is to park would be really helpful. So that doesn't, and I've seen it before, but that was just really dramatic because there was no play all day. So nobody could go to the library. [1:41:23] Kelsi Gabrielle Hobbs: I mean like they can though right, like haven't we just decided that there are other spots people can park and they can walk to the library an 80 or a 90 you want to take away an 88 spot so [1:41:39] Ann Ross: They're little walkers and they go across, there's a little, I'm just trying to be [1:41:45] Joseph Leonard: Help it used to be, it's fair seeing it used to be a reason I'm asking about that. I'm a little surprised because that lot used to be a lot busier than it is now. We used to have, remember used to be a booth there and a cashier and it was mixed use all the time and that lot was closing constantly, everything especially every time it was a jury duty and there was, you know, there's there. Yeah, so that's that is those people are coming in, they'd be instructed to park it out of square. What are you going To do, I mean I can't, we can tell the jury they can't validate park anymore, but then you've just lost all that revenue from them. So but it is something I would definitely look into, see what are you, because we can go back and see what the data is and say how many jurors, where are you getting in there and we can be marketing somewhere else. I appreciate it knowing about that and thank you so much for bringing up all these items, like I please don't feel like we were on that or anything like that, we Want to hear these, comments because it's how we're sitting down, even if it seems very minor in some ways, really important for us to have these conversations. Are you okay to focus on the subject, does that have good direction on that? Okay, so on other business, I'm going to apologize to the public, I meant to supply one final talking point which was taking an amendment on these origins for the parking committee in general. So if you haven't been watching the regularly scheduled apartment Committee meetings, this has been a topic of discussion over the last couple of meetings. This to establish this for the public. This is one of the only, this is the only committee that is, that is volunteer based, where the chair is a sitting elected city counselor. And one of the issues, that there are a lot of issues that do come from that. One of which being, if I were to not show up to this meeting, then the meeting isn't going to be conducted, unfortunately. That has been a problem in the past. There are also issues about potentially abusing this position just because as a sitting counselor, one could make the argument that I could personally influence this committee to go in a certain direction that would then go to business economic development or straight to the council. And basically like I could walk this committee to proposing something that it is not even, it just would not be fair based on the power dynamics here. And so what I proposed here are changes to the ordinance and there are really essentially two primary changes. The first one being completely axing the requirement that the chair be a city councilor, and the other change being combining two of the lines underneath section B, where we replace that with a new section which would be worded three residents of the city of Bangor, at least one of whom resides within downtown parking management district, with preference given to one who resides outside of the downtown parking management district, appointed by the personnel committee of the city. And the reason why it's worded that way is so that we can make sure we still have that voting member that normally would be the council chair, that with this change that I would be advocating for, it would replace the city Councilor with another volunteer committee member for that voting member. One of the things I did not acknowledge in here was a City Councilor to be a liaison, but none of our other ordinances for committee meetings so really make that strictly necessary if this committee did want to include that, or if this committee had any other additions that they wanted to make or edits to this, and staff as well, I would, I would love to hear your thoughts on this as well. And I know this is the first time presenting this to you and I apologize, but I do think this is necessary. It's for starters, it's a lot of extra work for me. And maybe it's just me being a bit of a lazy butt, but it is also extra work that it puts a lot of pressure on a counselor to not only do Their homework here and lead these conversations, but then to take these conversations to the BD meetings that follow up on that or the city council meetings that follow up on that it would be, you know, if I were to use a comparison. It would be egregious if I were a voting member on the plane, for example, like a lot of issues that as well. I know I talked a lot on this and I don't want to completely cover the entire conversation and if this committee does need more time to look over this ordinance proposal amendment I'm amendable to that and if anyone wants to make any additional changes as well or if people do not like these changes, of course, you don't have to recommend to have this go forward as a committee. I would agree with that. If this committee did feel that they were amenable to do that, said, if you guys don't put this forward, I will be putting forward myself on council. But I do want to hear from committee members on your thoughts and please speak freely on this. [1:48:50] Matt Altiero: I just had one question whether there was language on the other committees about choosing a chair that's just not mentioned because now we've we're losing language about the chair [1:48:59] Joseph Leonard: So there are and please correct me if I'm wrong staff there are no determining factors on who the chair is, it's usually a procedure where someone is nominated and then if there are no other nominations, it's just a broken process at that point, so please correct me [1:49:28] Anya Collette: If I'm wrong. No, that's the typical process and there should be also a vice chair. Yes. [1:49:32] Matt Altiero: Yes and is that typically written into the ordinance or is it just assumed that process [1:49:40] Anya Collette: Will happen no I don't know I just know from like planning board and hpc historic preservation [1:49:45] Joseph Leonard: That's in our bylaws but I'm not sure about the ordinance oh well go ahead do we have bylaws for [1:49:53] Matt Altiero: This committee and are they in those or would they be in those that's a great question I have [1:49:59] Joseph Leonard: Not seen them I'm pretty new to this committee so I have to check I will say though that the Robert's rules of order we go off of that which a lot of committees do and council does as well the Robert's rules of order makes it very clear what the procedures are and so if there is no language that the ordinance explicitly states that the community must follow the notion [1:50:30] Matt Altiero: Is usually to fall back to Robert, right? But I just want to make sure that we're aligned with other entities within the community and not just kind of out there flopping around, so to speak, right? Like, obviously we can always fall back to that, but I just want to make sure we're aligned with other committees so there's no questions about validity of anything that we did if the committee does, right? You don't want to have a vote and then somebody challenged that and say not legitimate because you Didn't follow this XYZ. So my other thought is I do think it's important to have a council liaison at least as part of this. I think as a counselor, whether it be you or somebody else, I think you bring a perspective that is incredibly helpful to the committee, especially from the point of the dynamics happening on council, right? Like there are going to be things that we may discuss that a council liaison can help kind of facilitate and guide us on how best to present with staff to council and I Think that's that's important. I think it's important to have that voice in the room, whether or not as a voting member or just as a liaison. I think that's open for discussion, but I do think having some sort of connection to [1:51:57] Joseph Leonard: Council is important, just my opinion. And I will say that I, as I say last week, I will continue to, if you guys are amenable to this and pray for it, I will continue to be acting as a liaison for this committee until that changes. And even if I'm no longer that liaison, one of the things that council is really trying to change is having every counselor at least be a liaison for one of our committee meetings, and certainly this one would be a priority for a counselor to be a liaison for. So I will Happily continue to fill that role until that changes. So completely hear you and I completely 100 [1:52:46] Matt Altiero: So for me I'd like to see language about that, okay, in this, because that's the directive of current council. What about council three councils from now and this entity hopefully is still operating in some form or function. And this will still be their guiding principles. So I mean, unless, obviously, this is a discussion. So like, but I mean, I think it would be good to have that in the language. [1:53:18] Joseph Leonard: Sure. Does anyone disagree with that notion? Staff, do you see any issue with including language like that? Like, would that counterbalance some of the other committee? I don't think [1:53:33] Anya Collette: It would. Would no, I know that there's other advisory committees where it says there's a liaison. I like in Georgia Walk Marsh Commission that talks about liaisons in there and advisory members. [1:53:45] Joseph Leonard: okay i 'm completely that's perfectly exactly the language we should add in there and if we want to instead of it being a proposed four lines under section b you want to have a fifth one there for that being the council liaison i 'm completely happy to suggest and make that change or we will vote on that as well oh and steph i'm more than happy to send this to you if you need me to i 've been barely changed okay well probably i mean we just need to warm up or that she just, of course, yes, I tried my hands. Any other thought from the committee or feelings or suggestions? [1:54:37] Kelsi Gabrielle Hobbs: Just the language on new bullet point one. I know you combined them to be, to combine the two before, but now it sounds confusing because it says three residents, at least one who's within the district, with preference given to one who's outside the district. So it makes it sound like you want someone. I know what it's trying to say, but it doesn't say it nicely, so if we could fix. [1:55:02] Joseph Leonard: that 'd be great just if that makes sense and but we can also like i was just trying to [1:55:14] Kelsi Gabrielle Hobbs: Combined, yeah, no, I get what it's trying to say, just reads a bit funny. Okay. [1:55:25] Joseph Leonard: I do believe that Reed residents absolutely need to be on the committee, and however we want to, or the language going forward, did you have a suggestion for language? Or yeah. [1:55:41] Kelsi Gabrielle Hobbs: Yeah, I mean, you could, you could just, I know you're trying to like consolidate, but if you just put it as three residents of City Bangor, I one that lives in the district, two eyes, one that's preference given to one that's closer. And then if there's a third qualification you want, or like of the other two, preference given to one who resides outside the parking district, just or at least one. And of the remaining, like something that just makes it separate, just me some semicolons, yeah, something an and or more like a bullet plate below that specifies it. [1:56:18] Joseph Leonard: It's not a big change, just yes, to that resident question though, does this committee feel like one of those residents should have a different description or nomenclature for being, for acting as a qualifier to be on the committee? Or should we have, for example, a two residents be people that fall into the downtown parking district? Or? [1:56:47] Matt Altiero: I think having a designated is one that's definitely you have to have one, right? Because I mean, we all know, sometimes it's hard to find people to participate in these sorts of things. When you start throwing a second one in there, you're doubling your challenges. And we also all know though, that this committee went quite a while between meetings, largely because of a lack of participation. And so I think having one where it's like, you have to be in downtown, one that's preference to somebody, maybe that's not, but if we can get somebody, and then kind of a floater, if you will, a resident of Bangor, or however, you want to word it. Definitely, we have to have somebody that lives downtown as part of the committee but too many qualifiers and we limit our candidate pool okay so I'm hearing a [1:57:42] Joseph Leonard: suggestion of like one the residence is just no specific requirements you're just a resident of Bangor does that does that make sense one being in the district one being outside the district and one being either or in the district or outside the dispute okay any other thoughts on the on this whether it be the clunkiness or the liaison do we [1:58:18] Ann Ross: need to include in this that we are electing a chair or somebody that runs doing or is that just implied I don't think it's necessary [1:58:29] Joseph Leonard: that being said if you guys want to create a process for how that chair and vice chair are selected that 's completely up to you guys i don't think it's necessary but that being said if you guys think it's necessary and you want that language in there of course i mean staff will absolutely work with you guys to get that specific language in there do you see an issue with including or not including that language i mean there's no harm in including it anything's clear okay all right does that sound okay with staff including that language for [1:59:11] Matt Altiero: the selection of a chair and vice chair yeah like I said I mean I think as long as we're following what the other committees how their structure and how their guiding documents look I'm good like consistency I just want exactly many would be really good and so I'm [1:59:30] Ann Ross: assuming that would look at how selection job description length you know what are we building the agenda or it does that come from a staff member that puts the agenda together other and then how long the length of your term one year yeah how long is this [1:59:51] Joseph Leonard: going to along those are all valid points and actually unfortunate creating more amendment work they're already posted in other committees and it's [2:00:07] Ann Ross: Consistent across and that's just pretty easy in addition inclusion boy I think. [2:00:13] Joseph Leonard: To your point, though, is, and this is kind of outside of scope of this committee, but it's more sort of a council perspective, but I think it is actually going to be important to uniform all of our committees to the point where we can. Like, obviously, there are ones like ethics and planning board, for example, that have very specific roles and very specific responsibilities and they are going to always be unique because of their respective duties, but ones that are like acre or downtown parking committee and firearms discharge committee. I think it would be important for we as a city, we as a city council to make it very clear what the processes are for these committees. Is that 's a whole that's not even that'll be something that we'll probably have to bring forward to council at some point maybe a really good point thank you for bringing that we'll definitely have that be a conversation any other thoughts on this or any other questions or concerns staff or did you have any thoughts on this or concerns I know I know kind of like through this right after this question well I shoot let's see how would we go about this for proposing that this be moved forward to. Council do we want to propose it with the amendments suggested what should the language be overall or do we more time to present this to the parking committee or to or council actually would it go. [2:02:19] Anya Collette: To council or would it go to be well no I think it might actually go to gov ops first I think they usually deal with the committees I think you know we may want to include the edits that. [2:02:31] Joseph Leonard: Have been mentioned here first and then that would go to gov ops okay so I guess what I'd be looking for it is a motion to move the recommended code change with the proposed amendments that we had in this discussion does that sound right on okay so I'd be looking for that motion I. [2:03:01] Matt Altiero: Make the motion I just said. [2:03:08] Joseph Leonard: Do I have a second? [Kelsi Gabrielle Hobbs: Second a motion.] Moved and seconded. Unless doubted, that will bear with me. That is all I have for this meeting. Does any other staff is there anything they would like to add? I think it was a very productive meeting. [2:03:33] Matt Altiero: Yeah the other thing is the next meeting date you need to sit there oh that's important thank you. [2:03:43] Anya Collette: I think we did decide at the last meeting that Thursdays at 5:30 was what worked for everybody. Yeah, so maybe we do that again. I don't have my phone here, so I can't look at the calendar, but we can just get back to you actually, because we have to look at the calendar and make sure there's no other meeting dates. So let's get back to you via email [2:04:06] Matt Altiero: with that. Just ask as long as it's not the first Thursday of the month, because I have a separate board meeting that day. [2:04:10] Joseph Leonard: Okay. That sounds good. Any other conflicts with any other Thursdays? And if something does come up, I'll obviously just reach out to staff if that doesn't apply. I'll just be out of town. [2:04:26] Anya Collette: Yeah, and we have historic preservation events on the 16th actually. So it'll probably be [2:04:31] Joseph Leonard: later in the month. Okay, all right, so we will get to that as soon as possible. Any other thoughts from committee members? Okay, thank you all so much. I know there's a long video, but it was the data I thought was like productive in our building counseling before Amazon's council when I was on this. Okay, with that said, it is 7:34 and we will adjourn. Thank you all so much, have a wonderful Thursday evening. Thank you