Bangor council hears homelessness system overview, BCAT staffing update

[1:29] Susan Hawes: welcome to the special city council workshop it is tuesday january 13th 5 15. we are in council chambers around the table we have an attendance counselor fish council letter counselor dean council walker director anderman we have city manager lear who's moved his seat again and I am Councilor Haas. Our one item tonight is public health overview on existing service network and services and strategic plan examples. And we're going to turn it over to Director [2:13] Speaker B (unidentified): Gunningdon. Thank you. Thanks for having me here tonight. One of the observations that I had is there's been a lot of conversations around addressing homelessness and bangor and i hope tonight i can provide a little bit of sort of a snapshot of the landscape of what's happening here in bangor particularly as the council moves forward with a committee and strategic planning and other conversations i know that you are being sort of thrown a lot of ideas and a lot of feedback and I just thought it'd be helpful for you just to understand what's happening outside. I did add, so Courtney, am I able to see the presentation? So I did put together some slides. I know that you weren't able to get them too soon before this evening, so I apologize for that. But I understand that you'll have them. So I started off by providing a few disclaimers about the conversation. And the first one is that this is just to provide a broad overview of services with the major players of moving people along a pathway to getting housed. There are so many organizations and people that are doing really great work. I am not going to be able to touch on them all. This is not an exhaustive list. I feel like if I even tried to list, it would be, I'd probably exclude somebody and I would not want to do that and the focus of tonight's conversation about this landscape is really on those people who are experiencing homelessness the resources the system is different for people who are housed who are that as you mentioned counselor Carson that's close to being homeless like that 40 that just about has 20 200 in their bank this isn't the system that I'm describing tonight this is the system For people who are unhoused, and what I'm also hoping for tonight is that not only am I providing you with a little bit of a landscape and answer any questions, but I've also embedded a number of resources that you can go back to if you have questions based on some of the observations that I've had from questions that you've posed me or opposed to others. I also hope to show you that your public health department, public health and community services, we are a wealth of information for you as well. So if there's any follow-up questions or any other information I can provide, you're here for that. Next slide, Courtney. It's not all right. I thought I would just kind of ground us in the first conversation of the drivers of homelessness again, not an exhaustive list here, but just to remind us why people lose their housing. Economic factors, they don't have a livable wage, debt is more than income, the complete lack of unaffordable housing. I don't probably need to go into that too much detail. We can we may even feel that personally. Domestic violence can cause somebody to be homeless if they need to escape their home or their living situation and not have a place to go. This next one, the age out of foster care without supports, I'm seeing this actually anecdotally as a significant factor in Bangor. A number of the people who are experiencing homeless right now were in the foster care system, and the foster care system isn't built to really provide that handoff into adulthood, and people are left without supports and resources, which leads to the no family or supports, but particularly when you get into those tough times, as we've talked about here, mental health challenges, addiction can cause housing closing challenges. Other life events, you know, how often have we heard that one medical issue put somebody into bankruptcy and they've lost everything, you know. Those stories are becoming more and more familiar, and then again that bucket of many other very complex factors, a lot of them having to do with a structure that isn't built to provide the best help sometimes. Could you change the cycle. So one of the things I want to start off with is one of the questions that I was posed to the last time I was here is like, how many people are homeless in Bangor, and I provided a number from what I had heard and talking with circles around, not talking in circles, talking with the circles of community partners, you know, we said the number was maybe around 300. So I did a little digging, and I want to make sure that you had the resources available to you so that you can understand what that number is and where that number comes from. So I've provided the links right there, and you'll have them in the slides. This is a dashboard that's publicly available where you can see, and it's done on, I think it's a monthly basis. The inflow is the number of people coming into homelessness. The outflow is the number of people leaving homelessness for different reasons, and then that active homelessness of 614 is for all of Hub 7, that is Penobscot and Piscataquist County. This data, as I mentioned before, is not perfect data. It's based upon our HMIS system, which has some challenges. But that and the point in time count are the best data sources that we might have at the moment. And this 614 is, again, reminding you that this is the number for the person who meets the HUD definition of homelessness, which mean it doesn't include the people who are couch surfing necessarily that aren't in the system or the people who haven't entered into the system that I'm about to describe. Our point in time count is two weeks away. January 26th is when that count will happen. Next slide, Courtney. So in talking about the system that currently kind of exists right now,. I wanted to start at the beginning, sort of where it starts and on the ground activities. So how do people who are experiencing homelessness connect with the first on the ground resources? So one of the things that services provided by say, for example, the city of Bangor outreach, ECAT, options, PAF, home team, shelters, even the Bangor library, the service providers,, all those entities have staff members that are designated to do this type of outreach. There are many other organizations. There is churches, there's Penobscot County Cares, there's Dignity First, there's many other organizations that are doing some of this type of works, but I just highlighted the ones that are specific organizations that are charged with this on-the-ground activities. So what these entities do is first they engage and listen. They engage with people experiencing homelessness, understand what brought them there. Is there family and friends that they could reconnect with? Just to hear the story, because when you hear the story, you can help find those places to build trust and to link to the right resources, which leads to linking to the local resources. Does somebody want to go into shelter? Finding out if there's availability, providing bus tickets, providing with the resources versus where they can get meals and other daily needs. This touch point is also where sort of people kind of enter the system, and I use that in quotes because it's not a perfect system by any means. But what I mean by enter the system is someone gets logged into that HMIS system, and I'll explain why that's important. But by getting entered into that HMIS system, they have their information recorded as well as they have an assessment done. That assessment looks at how long they've been homeless, for example, any other complex factors that may be impacting their housing status. In Bangor, there's a number of those entry points. The library is one of those entry points, and there's other organizations that can enter people into that system, and there's many organizations who link people to the people who can put people in the system. Also on the ground is again provided those basic needs, food, phone storage, narcan, and then this on the ground work also includes referring to other services and program that can provide that next step of engagement and that next step towards housing. Next slide. Oh [11:05] Speaker C (unidentified): yeah, I just had a quick question [11:07] Joseph Leonard: on the HMIS system entry points. Does it behoove us to invest in more of those entry points, assuming if they're cost-effective entry points or not? I don't know how invested an entry point is at the end of the day, but would that help the overall number of the data collection? [11:31] Speaker B (unidentified): That's a really great question, and I would save that for another. I can't answer that. But Jen Lawler, who's the hub seven coordinator, could provide, and I was, you may want to have her come someday to talk about her work, answer questions just like that. Thank you. [11:47] Carolyn Fish: With the entry points of the different service providers, is it shared with the other service providers? So you all know what's been offered and where they're at? Yes. And so the HMIS system, [11:59] Speaker B (unidentified): System, many entities have access to that database. You have to go through a training, you have to sign off, you know, because this is very private information. So there's a lot of checks and balances to make sure that is ensured. But people are able to see that the right people, not like I don't even have access to that database because I don't need to. My work, but I have some staff members who work in this field that absolutely have that access and so they can go in and say oh I'm working with so and so I'm going to go in have this have their information been updated have they had an assessment who are they working with where are they at so that system is really part of that glue. So what's the next step? So after there's like some engagement in that first level of outreach work sort of getting people to the next place on that path to housing So providing this more in-depth support. So who provides this support I'm about to describe are case managers and I'll talk a little bit about that the path team and the path team is out of Community Health and Counseling Services CHCS the home team which is a Medicaid funded team that lives at Penobscot County Community Health Center at PCHC shelters, case managers and housing navigators that are at the shelters, like Bangor Area Homeless Shelter, Hope House, Shaw House, and Partners for Peace, And BCAT also does some of this work. So when somebody is assigned to, not assigned to, but when somebody accepts services from those types of entities, the assistance that's provided includes such things as helping to fill out the paperwork for MaineCare or SNAP or SSI or whatever that person might be eligible for. It's about helping to get down birth certificates to get identifications because you can't do many things without identification. It's talking to people about shelter and housing options. Where are they at? What is a good fit for a person? Doing housing applications, vacations, going to apartment showings, helping to do lease signings, and actually helping people move in. Some entities then also stay to help stabilize that person in housing. Now, how long an entity, a case manager, a PATH, home team, housing navigator, stay with a person is really dependent upon the funding that funds that position. So for example, with PATH, once somebody is housed, they're not with that person much longer. They'll close that, transition them to a case manager, close out their case, and go back to who they can now take on from the beginning. This is a little bit of a challenge, and I'll talk about that in a moment. And then case managers and those other entities do other really important things, like linking to health care, to mental health, to transportation, to getting those basic needs. And the resources that they leverage for housing, I've listed there. I won't go through all of them, but there's a number of options there that people try to work with their clients in being able to understand if it's the right fit and how to put in applications and see through that process. I will say that the HOPWA one is maybe one you haven't heard of that is actually funding specifically for people living with HIV. That's a program that's run out of Franny Puberty in Portland. I added the Landlord Liaison Program that's run out of CHCS. That is a program that provides landlords with a financial incentive up front to help house people that might be more challenged to house. That is an upfront incentive that CHCS runs. There's stipulations. There's many pieces to that program that I know enough details to get to trouble, but that's all I'll say. The Bangor Rentals Registry is also a tool in the toolbox because whenever a property owner registers at the city of Bangor's rental registry, there's other benefits that they can get, such as, for some of these vouchers, the location needs to pass some inspections. Our rental registry program helps in some ways to get people up to that inspection. And then in the future for Bangor is the Good for Home program. That is a housing first model that is main housing funds. It's not federal funds for you because we know that's been precarious. Those are main housing funds to build a building that is focused on housing first that Preble Street and others will be helping to run. So those are again not an exhaustive list, but the big list of what resources then are leveraged. Next slide, Courtney. So this coordinated entry system, you may have, oh, back, is that right? No, it should go back to the one with the arrow. There you go. So the coordinated entry system, coordinated entry might be a term that you've heard, maybe you have been involved in it. But that coordinated entry system is a one of the paths, one of the ways to coordinate the services and the people involved. So again, we talked about people are connected with an access point where they enter the HMIS system. Next in that is when people are entered into the HMIS system. They have an assessment done and they're provided with a score. That score will dictate how resources are allocated, and I'll explain that in a minute. Now, every, oh gosh, all of a sudden I went for a blank. I believe it's every other week, if not every week, there is a case conferencing virtual meeting. The Hub 7 coordinator runs this meeting and they go through what resources are available in terms of housing vouchers and then link it to the people who are been up in the queue based upon their score. There's also a conversation around, hey, has this case manager seen this person, where is this person at? So there's some conversation about where people might be at and what resources are needed and being linked to. So there is that coordination that's happening is predominantly focused on, here's the number of housing vouchers that are available between Bangor, between DHS, between other entities, who is next in line to get that voucher, and then do they have that case manager reach out to them to coordinate getting that voucher and then that housing. So that's like the system. Next slide. Another term that we've talked about a lot here is the main hub configuration. I've provided a map here of the hubs. We are hub seven, which is Penobscot and Piscataquist County. I've also provided the link to this information, which you can see every hub has one hub coordinator. So when we talk about the staff of the hub, we are talking about one person who staffs this hub and the activities that are associated with it. This hub framework is out of linked closely with main housing and the main continuum of care. That's not, we didn't dictate that, 's a system outside of us. Next slide. So hub seven, I, this is where I have enough information to be dangerous. Again, I would encourage if you want to learn more about the Hub 7 coordinator and their specific roles, that might be a conversation you want to have. I did outline a few of those activities. They manage the HMIS data. They run the case conferencing. Jen Lawler, the Hub 7 coordinator, is also the person who gathers all the warming center data that I then share with city manager and with you all. She often convenes regular conversation. She convenes a monthly meeting of homeless providers. She does a monthly warming shelter meeting, many other meetings, but that's just to highlight a couple. She is also the point person for coordinating the point in time. She's getting the volunteers, she's getting all the tools ready for people to do the work. She hosts training when she does some by name list and care coordination. When we had the train track encampment, she was the one who really took ownership of the by name list and working with PATH and others to see where people were at what they needed and to do that work and the overall job is of that position is assessing gaps and collaborating for problem solving next [Speaker C (unidentified): slide] wanted to mention something about housing stabilization so I just talked a lot about people who are experiencing homelessness up the different paths on how they get and the resources to get housed I can't talk without mentioning housing stabilization and housing stabilization includes once people get housed how can we help to support keeping them housed and then there's also people who are really like they have gotten the notice that they are going to potentially be evicted and this is an area of absolute opportunity. There's very limited resources in this area. Case management is a tool that's used to keep people housed. However, case management is a big term for lots of different entities. And that case management, again, can be different based upon funding sources. And case management doesn't pay for some of the important things. For example, transportation. It does not pay, main care does not pay for somebody to transport their client it doesn't pay for the case manager to drive around looking for their clients so there are a lot of things that are really important to case management that just are not paid for what also happens is case managers once they get somebody stabilized right and they're in that housing sometimes they make it demands that somebody who isn't housed they've got to work with so they're working with you know that conflicting Demand all the time. I do want to mention the city of Bangor program that we've done for the past year with Bruce Hughes leading the ship here. This was Maine housing money that we have for another year, and the success of this program was really built upon a lot of the partnerships that we built with landlords. In just one year, we have kept about 90 people housed in that program in one year. Those are people who just got housed, and it was really tentative, and they were gonna like be able to succeed. To people who got that eviction notice, some of the strategies that Bruce employed was again building that landlord tenant relationship. When like just having a conversation, maybe the landlord didn't understand that person got on a payment plan for their back rent, everything would be okay because otherwise they were a great tenant. Or maybe it was a conversation with the tenant and it was like, you know what, I am just in housing that I can't afford anymore, and Bruce would move him to another. Housing or sometimes there's a case where somebody just was challenged with their cleanliness upkeep of their apartment and just needed like a hand getting organized, coming up with a checklist list. So that work really filled a whole lot of gaps. And one of the things that Bruce did is Bruce was not a case manager, but what he did is he worked with clients to advocate for themselves with case managers and helped to guide case managers. Sometimes case managers just don't know what to do. They don't know what resource to go to. They don't know what hoop to jump through. They don't know what paperwork to fill out. Bruce, he's now the master of filling out a maximus, which is a paper to help people get into assisted supportive living, right? He's now the person that case managers are calling to say, how do I do this? Put me in the right direction. So there's a lot of strategies that he's employed to be able to be the successful. This funding does end in December of 2026. The funding also included us being able to provide tangible items like pots and pans, a bed, you know, we were finding that people were getting housed with nothing, they were living out of a box on an air mattress, so that's the housing stabilization program, next slide. And in terms of like the overall coordination collaboration, I know that's been something that's come up a lot, it is mostly informal on the ground right now, who knows who, can you call that person who's working with whom case. Conferencing is another place where coordination collaboration happens. Whenever there's an encampment response, that's where sort of like all hands on deck happen. There's the monthly homeless provider meeting. There are lots of opportunities for coordination collaboration. This is the what I call the low-resource, high-impact opportunity. It is the not millions of dollars to do, not controversial. This is an area that can improve. For example, one opportunity that we've talked about in different conversations is what PCHC calls a hug meeting. It's a high-utilizer group. Who are those people in our community that are struggling the most, that are in the hospital quite often, that EMS is called on or police are called on? How can we do some case conferencing around that group of people to make sure that they're getting the support that they need. [26:08] Joseph Leonard: I'm so sorry to keep asking questions. How, annually speaking, how much money do those organizations and the city itself go to those very immediate low resource high outcomes so like what's the overall annual cost that the city puts into [26:31] Speaker B (unidentified): That you know I don't have that number and I'd have to think about how to calculate that I would [26:37] Joseph Leonard: Actually like to have a conversation about that and to see if there's actually a certain because if it is low cost resources that we can provide I would actually be amendable I physically separate conversation completely I understand that I would be amenable to having a annual ongoing council ordered account for specifically that type of funding like no questions asked as long as it's going for certain priority needs for the for those and if it really is that impactful then I think that's a Worthy conversation to have I mean if a dollar can be turned to $10,000. Why not? [27:22] Speaker B (unidentified): That's a great question. I will say anecdotally, if I was just to think immediately about what that looks like, that looks like helping with basic furnishings for a person. And it keeps them housed because they have a home. Right. Right? That's exactly, I think, what you're talking about. Yes,. [27:39] Joseph Leonard: Can we have a conversation about that sometime in the future, if you don't mind? Absolutely. [27:44] Speaker B (unidentified): We'll actually, through this main funding, we'll actually have a little pilot where we can say, this is how much we spent and these were the number of the people that we were able to keep in housing. Okay, thank you. My apologies. Oh no, that's a great point. Next slide. So in mind before I jump to the strategic planning examples to keep in mind as I sort of reiterate to summarize, everyone is funded differently with various requirements and expectations. Asking organizations to do certain things that they're not funded to do, you can imagine, doesn't go over super well. So as we talk about coordination and collaboration, it's about how we keep the eye on the prize in terms of supporting our community in many different ways and bringing people together in that way and working with the variations in funding and requirements. Another really important principle in this work is autonomy. People get to choose what they want and don't want for resources. People can choose to not have a case manager, and we have to be okay with that. Right, so we work really hard to encourage, to explain the benefits, not just me but we as in terms of the city, but all the people involved in the system. But people do have the choice to say I don't want that resource. The current system is not flowing efficiently. I have talked with number of people within our staff and outside of our staff that right now, the housing vouchers, for example, are not necessarily going to the people who are most housing ready. And this is leading to evictions because the people who are getting housing vouchers are people who are scored super high. And to get that very high score, it means that you have been living outside for a very long time. When you live outside for a very long time, you start to develop different skills to live. and there is there what we have seen is that when there's a transition between being completely unhoused to all of a sudden being in a rental unit where you need to abide by some really strange rules sometimes that it may seem, there can be a disconnect. Case managers is the key to stabilization. As I mentioned that case management has restraints and case management availability does become limited at times. We work really hard. If somebody says I really could use a case manager, like all those partners out there are hunting somebody down to be able to link the person to case management. For people with complex health challenges, the options for housing and support is really lacking. We don't have the right fit for like might be a small proportion, but that's the proportion of people that we hear about most often that are unhoused. And adult protective services is not necessarily prioritizing people in the same way we are for getting that support. It's incredibly frustrating on the ground. And I would say transportation is the key. I won't go into details, else, transportation unlocks a whole lot. Next slide. So I know the second part of what I was talking about is around strategic planning. So I just wanted to mention a few things. So I just wanted to kind of ground the work again a little bit and sort of some key elements. I have done some perusing of strategic plans addressing homelessness and housing affordability across the United States. I'm going to say Denver is just the coolest strategic plan. I'll explain why in a minute. These are just some observations from the strategic plans that I have looked at. The first thing is that the strategic plans categorize the work. They bucket it to make it tangible and doable, and those are some examples. The really good strategic plans have what are called smart objectives. That means that they are, and I put a little graphic there for smart objectives. They're measurable, they're attainable or actionable, they are time sensitive, they're specific. It allows us to measure if what we're doing works. They're evidence informed and evidence based. That means there is some research, there is something that says, this has a high likelihood of working. And there are tools out there that say, this is what the evidence that says that works and I've provided a cup of resource there and it's based on collaboration the strategic plans that are done by counties municipalities doesn't mean the county or the municipality is doing the work it means that there is a shared accountability that we're working together towards the same objective and then I provided a resource there 's actually a resource where you can look at homeless strategic plans by city by County by county, by state. So your reading pleasure. Next. And so the one example that I just wanted to show you was Denver. And they have what's called WIGs, Wildly Important Goals. And this is just an example. They have a third bucket, but it was more about their internal organization's accountability. But I thought these two buckets were like so spot on. Deliver at least 2100 units of newly developed or preserved income restricted housing units by a date. And then when you go into their plan, it says the actions that they're going to try to get to that and who's going to be involved. And then they can go back periodically and say, how close are we to that? Where have there been some barriers it is so well laid out it is simple to read it's 12 pages and i just think it's so incredibly well done as a possible model so all of that to say it's possible municipalities are doing it they're doing it in a really smart way we don't have to reinvent the wheel here we could probably steal a lot of these measures and just change the numbers if we felt like it related to the work that wants to be done here in Vancouver. All right, that's all I have. So again, my point tonight was to set the landscape of the work that's being done here, at least a highlight of it, and then just to kind of ground you in what other strategic planning has looked like in other places, in the hopes that this will be hopeful as you think forward on what comes next fantasy other [34:33] Susan Hawes: questions for jim before we ask the chief to come up and talk a little bit about okay quick questions we talked about the foster care system [34:50] Wayne Mallar: for people what percent of that of the foster care people in our area are from bangla i [34:59] Speaker B (unidentified): I don't have that number for you, I could look it up. I will have to say that 's going back to sort of like high impact, low resource. I've often thought that, is there a way through collaboration that we could be doing more for this population in terms of helping them transition from foster care? I don't have the like specific data. I don't believe that's captured in HMIS, but I'm sure there's some research out there that gives like kind of a proportion. [35:27] Wayne Mallar: It would be interesting to know that because I don't believe 100% of the foster care is done in the Bangor area, it's spread out county-wide, but it'd be interesting to know what percentage of it is in this area that we're getting the brunt of the problems from or if we're getting them from the whole county. I would assume the whole county. That's just me. Mr. Carson? [35:58] Daniel Carson: Would you consider that to be our service area, that we are a service center for, or would you suggest that it is larger than that area, or how are we envisioning what we're actually servicing? [36:13] Speaker B (unidentified): So I don't, again, I would look to the HMIS data on what that looks like, but what I can say anecdotally from the people that we serve, it certainly extends beyond us. We have worked with people to get them housed in Millinocket. Wait, that's Pascataquist. I'm probably still in hub seven there, but I believe that, you know, we have worked with people that are coming from Washington County or other locations, so I would say we have provided those services. I don't know what the proportion is. That would be an HMIS data question. [36:49] Susan Hawes: Yes, of course. [36:52] Wayne Mallar: Do we work, coordinate our work with Shelter Plus Care with PCHC? [37:00] Speaker B (unidentified): Yes. So Shelter Plus Care is what it used to be called. It's now called Rental Assistance. That is operated out of our department. We work very closely with PCHC in many different ways. We work with PCHC with their home team. We work with PCHC with their street outreach team. We work with PCHC and their other mental health substance use disorder treatment. So very closely. Oh, sorry. I don't mean to digress, but I have good news. Thinking of Shelter Plus Care, the HUD NOFO that supports our rental assistance program. The last I spoke to you, it looked like HUD was going to, for that second year of our funding, completely changed the table on us. There has been a temporary injunction. At this moment, as I speak, any project that is a renewal project, which includes our voucher program and the DHEA Just Voucher program, can continue as originally planned for the remainder of the contract year, which is basically another. Another. So in August of 2027, is when our funding will end. As I sit here today, I have good news. And I hope that continues. [38:25] Wayne Mallar: Finish up on Shelter Plus Care. How many other cities in the state are involved in Shelter Plus Care? [38:34] Speaker B (unidentified): Oh, many. Because it's not just us that runs that voucher program, is also Maine DHHS. And Maine DHHS gives their vouchers to all of the hubs to give out. So if I was in one of the southern Maine hubs, they would have vouchers and they would be giving them out. The Bangor vouchers are predominantly up here in Bangor. We do provide some housing for people in Hamden, Old Town, Orono, very few, but these rental assistance vouchers are throughout the state. [39:11] Wayne Mallar: Well, who does PCHC provide theirs to? [39:14] Speaker B (unidentified): They don't provide vouchers to anybody. [39:16] Wayne Mallar: Under their Shelter Care Plus program? [39:18] Speaker B (unidentified): They don't have a Shelter Plus care program. [39:21] Wayne Mallar: You just said they did. [39:23] Speaker B (unidentified): No, they have a home team, which is a team of- [39:25] Wayne Mallar: But you said it's the same thing. [39:26] Speaker B (unidentified): No, sorry, I didn't explain that right. [39:29] Wayne Mallar: Because originally Shelter Care Plus used to be under PCHC and CHCS, one or the other. [39:36] Speaker B (unidentified): ELLEN FITZPATRICK- So we've always owned Shelter Plus Care in the city of Bangor. [39:40] Wayne Mallar: JOHN WHYTE, JR.: But there was always a second provider in the area. That's why I'm asking again if there is a second provider. ELLEN FITZPATRICK- No. JOHN WHYTE, JR.: It used to be just Bangor and Portland were the only two cities in the state that provided Shelter Plus [39:54] Speaker B (unidentified): Care. ELLEN FITZPATRICK- It's the city of Bangor and DHHS. We are the only ones that from this. [40:00] Wayne Mallar: COC. You said, I assume that's a state organization? [Speaker B (unidentified): Maine DHHS. Yes.] Why are we competing with the state? [40:08] Speaker B (unidentified): Oh, we're not competing. We put in what's called a collaborative application. So they put in their proposal, we put in our proposal, and we were both. [40:20] Wayne Mallar: But would they have been funded for what we wanted if we had not put in part? Well, we can't say for sure. That's true. I just find it because with every program comes administrative costs, what are the administrative costs for shelter care plus? [40:36] Speaker B (unidentified): It's a staff member. [40:39] Wayne Mallar: So that might be one less staff member we need if the state were only I'm just questioning because I know how programs work, there's always a certain percentage that goes to administrative costs. So if you have one group administering, it's much cheaper usually than having two or three administering the same program [41:03] Susan Hawes: yep i'm set council official and councilman we have one person [41:11] Carolyn Fish: lens of setting and is kind of the coordinator it sounds like a lot of things and there's approximately 600 there about unsheltered homeless in the hub second region is it Is it primarily the consensus within the whole network that Bangor primarily ends up providing the majority of the services and the coordination? [41:43] Speaker B (unidentified): Again, I would have to look at the HMIS data on where people are accessing services. The PATH team, for example, they extend into Piscataqua. they do work in Piscataquist County, they do in Aroostook County, they do in other parts of the state. So in terms of coming to Bangor for services, I mean Bangor has the two emergency shelters unlike other areas, so yes people would be coming to this area for that. In terms of the proportion of people that come from outside to access the inside systems, we don't have that data. [42:22] Carolyn Fish: Do we know in the categories that we don't, we broke out as far as all of the different reasons people become unhoused, do we have any idea what percentage falls into those categories? I don't have that. [42:40] Speaker B (unidentified): And I don't know what I'd have to look into what HMIS collects for reasons for homelessness. I don't know if that's a variable. [42:48] Carolyn Fish: Both of the last two, because I know, you know, we have a lot of resources, and just looking over the last couple of years with all the funding we have, you know, applications we've made for grants in the 8 to 12 million dollars, and yet it seems like we, the city, and you know, our departments seem to really still carry the blunt, and I don't know how we can move forward with a strategic plan and to not have a start base. Well, we don't know the percentages, we don't know where we're at, we don't know how. Many are from this cataclysm county, we don't know how many have dental health and how many are used that have fallen out of the bus here. It just would be, you know, I just know with business, you know, it's a lot easier because I know this is more facts, but to know when we're making progress or where we're weak and where we're falling through the cracks, we kind to have a basis, and I just feel there's so many questions we have about where's the 8 to 12 million, and I know there's different. Non-profits doing different services, but then seem to be working, so if we don't have some percentages and some strengths and weaknesses from each resource, how can we collaborate, and how can we have a basis to even calculate? So that's why it's just, you know, we keep saying percentages and where they're coming from. I've gotten a little bit broader minded that they may be from our sister neighborhoods, but I also know that they're getting, you know, I heard about one last week from Texas and New Jersey, and, you know, I understand we have a lot of smaller communities, and we have a lot of, we are the service hub, but I also think somewhere along the line, you have to have expectations, we have to have accountability, and we have to set our own limitations, and it's hard to do that when we don't really know. Where we're at, no. [44:46] Speaker B (unidentified): Criticism, no, and you know this is this is the challenge with working in this area, you know, working in public health. We count a lot of things, and some things are really easy to count. This is not, this is so complex. I will have to say that the HMIS system, it's a love it you hate it type of system. It's it's built to do many things, and if you've worked with any type of data systems, it usually can only do one thing really well. What I will say is I am feeling optimistic that the data will become better out of HMIS because there's now a new contractor for the state of Maine that is doing this work, and this is a company that does the HMIS system for many other states that have been very happy with their work with reports that are being pulled out. So I think I think there's more to come on this data. And I'm with you, like I'm an epidemiologist by training, data for action. I think we're gonna have to use the best that we've got to just get us started. And part of a strategic plan, like I've seen in other ones, are about improving data. So what's the strategic plan? What can we include in our strategic plan that prioritizes and focuses on improving data quality? [46:05] Joseph Leonard: Well, I guess first, who is the person in your department, if it is one in your department that tracks all these different grants from the federal government that are available,, any changes in COC or any state-regarded funding source or any type of resource? Who does the majority of that organizing of that information? Because it changes practically at a daily point at this point. [46:41] Speaker B (unidentified): There's no one person. We as a team are keeping an eye. We know specific sources nurses to keep an eye on and then we don't have a writer grant seeker kind of do it as a team. Okay. [46:55] Joseph Leonard: How much of your work and administrative,, purpose requires a lot of those governmental fundings? Like, I know when we talked before, back when we had continuous finance through the federal government is roughly about 75, but is it still roughly that much right now? Okay, and I know you just gave us some good news today about like a certain program that we're relying on now, they're they're being extended because of the nature of this problem, because of just like how expensive it is. I feel like a lot of that expensiveness comes from this mystery of not knowing when we're going to get certain Funds for certain priorities that we have. Is there a way that we can administratively organize that information so that it gives us a better pathway for what is the best strategy to go forward, specifically considering what our limitations are as a municipality for going into solving our homelessness crisis? Or is that like, I don't want to like pressure a question on you, but I feel like because of the intensity of this changing information non-stop over and over and over again, it for every time you detail us and i appreciate your details it almost always feels like it 's overwhelming that information for resources and funding. I feel like in order to really get a handle on this, we almost need a dedicated person to strictly look at that entire apparatus, because I feel like we're only getting a foggy image of what we're capable of doing right now. And to be honest, is like I really feel that for you Jen, honestly having to do what is, I it looks like two jobs basically, so I don't, I don't know if you have an answer there, but I feel like in order the best way to go forward, we really need to try to organize how we look at our funding sources and then organize those funding resources to all the individuals that are working as 501c3s or private entities in this area that focus on that said problem. The more we can organize those resources and incomes based around those people, we might have a better chance at actually organizing the problem. I feel like you're doing a lot of your work with one arm tied behind your back though. So I don't know the correct course of action, but it seems like to me, it would behoove us to manufacture potentially another employee to specifically look into those issues, because this is costing the city a lot of money and I think organizing, having a city employee that organizes grants and any type of resource allocations probably going to behoove not just your department but the city in general, so I think this is, this might actually cause us to have a specific type of discussion for our upcoming budget anyway I don't [50:32] Michael Beck: Know if you had anything that they wanted, okay. So the criticism, I'm not the levy are to the state, not locally at all, because yeah, I've only been digging into stuff like this for all four years, but it's like, seems like everyone's got a different version of the same tune of the system, so you know. And then we've got a different piece that's broken, and my problem, this might be a an opportunity for us, the council, to start making a little more noise about accountability, you know. At one point in the last four years, the city or not, I'm sorry, the state had four plans running concurrently. They had the homeless response system redesign, built for zero, frequent user system engagement plan, as well as the plan to end and prevent homelessness. All had deadlines that came and went, no forensic of accounting, but why those deadlines were never met, funds were spent, but no accountability for the funds. And sometimes they allocate funds for things like coordinated entry, and then main housing never spent the money on, and then if they report about how they're doing better, they're doing better. Well, my problem with that stuff that we're getting from the state level is we're being told like, well, we've got a pilot program in 2022, we were told in October, and then come December, oh, the pilot program's completely looking great, but then two years later, we're talking about it all over again. We're doing ornate, you know, trying to improve coordinating entry again, and it never improves, and there's never any kind of accountability for why it's not improving. And other hubs, you know, when you sit in these, you know, statewide homeless Council meetings, the regional Council, and you get these hub updates, other hubs are doing great with it, other hubs or not. It just feels like there's not enough talking between them, like, well, if it's successful here, how do you duplicate that over here? Because to me, I guess because I'm a data guy, and you know, you're training people who need to entry, you know, if you take the information in Portland, you should do the same kind of, you know, process in Bangor, you know, vice versa. That's how it becomes Universal. And now, you know, even in 2022, we were several years behind HUD deadline meeting that quality data level. It just, it's just a track record of just zero accountability for all of the money that we put into this at the state level to do this coordination. And here we are, the city, we're drowning, we're trying, we're doing the best we can, the folks on the ground are doing Heroes work trying to do outreach, everything else, but this a system where your odds of being housed has to do with that you had the right case manager who is in the right meeting writing down the right resources. The fact that we don't have a repository with all the resources in them that you just go to, that we have to wait for a weekly case management to then go through and then compare notes and tally things down 2026. Like this should be computerized. I get that we have to protect individuals' information, but we should be able to coordinate all of this information from, you know, the resources we're funding them, and that should be a piece of it. If we're going to fund you, then you need to plug into the system and tell us what you got in real time. So I'm just, what can we do to make more noise about, you know, the level of coordination that's happening, because this is bigger than us, much bigger than our city, you know. We've got the hubs and hub seven, and I feel like there should be more coordination from them, you know. For example, with the encampment closure, like that was, you know, to in a short amount of time that we had to bring the band together and pause together, where if the hub is truly doing all of this coordination, it should have been a matter of, hey Jen, we got this situation, got on, get on it, can you court you bring it, bring the band, let's, let's do this. So I don't know what's happening. I would like to have a conversation with the hub sudden coordinator to get some answers, but also what can we do as a city to lift our voice up to the state level and say, hey, your statewide homeless council, you know, you keep making these plans and you're setting deadlines, what's the deal? Or you made a big deal out of built for zero and then you unceremoniously cancel the contract and said nothing to anybody, and you know, meanwhile we're all waiting to see the success from any of it. So you know, I just, what can we do to all of the people on the front lines are doing all this hard work, what can we do to fix the system so that they're not having to spend so much time, like when you mentioned the fact that, you know, there's case managers out there who just don't know what resources are available, like what a lost opportunity that is, and I don't know how, you know, what kind of education program we can do to make sure that everyone knows, and again, it goes back to having that repository, but here's all the Resources that everyone else is feeding into it so we know, rather than again, yeah, what meaning were you in and did you write down the right stuff? So it's frustrating because we're all sitting at this table trying to figure this out and do this, but where the real money is and all the coordination's happening, it's just, I don't know what they're doing. And it would just be nice to, if you make a plan and you set some deadlines at the state level, then by God, follow through or explain why you didn't, rather than just move on to the next thing and pretend it didn't happen. You know, so sorry to rant a little bit, but I'm just, it's been years, I'm frustrated that, you know, we're, we're trying to figure this out and this is bigger than us and this is something that the state should be able to get its act together on and coordinate all of us together to work together rather than just expect us to make the partnerships and figure it out. You know, what are they meeting for if they're not coordinating us? [56:12] Carolyn Fish: And then where you talk about this brings me back to the conversation about the legislative committee and that being a real opportunity to leverage that committee and at least some initial conversations with our delegation to see how that goes and whether they can help us raise our voices a little louder. [56:35] Daniel Carson: I was just going to chime in with the same thing that I think this would be a great opportunity to continue, you know, outside of here, but a discussion about a committee like that has the ability, right, to hear from different departments across the city and really find the gaps that we need to be advocating for and to do that with our legislators and to and some teeth and make some noise also. [57:01] Susan Hawes: Fish is the [57:02] Carolyn Fish: Part of the problem of confidentiality and so therefore they're keeping their data because they can't share it, but if, there's a patient that I give, you know, maybe you don't have to know their name, within the database could it be like, you know, patient, you know, I don't know, coded somehow without actually giving their name, date of birth, or any, is there a way of creatively getting around whatever law about confidentiality so at least the data, so the powers that be, that the people, the service Providers know that you know patient P34 A B or you know whatever, they know who that is, but it alleviates the confidentiality issue enough so that it's maybe step one of getting a database. Are you following me? They're coded or they're giving a system so the service providers can watch where they're going and what they're getting and what they need and where to put them next, rather than have it so segmented so that no one knows where they are and what they're doing, what they've gotten. Is there a way around that so that HMIS [58:11] Speaker B (unidentified): system is built so that people who are working with clients can go into that database, update anything about that client, that's what it's predominantly used for. It's not really used for someone from the outside of that to come in to do data analysis, and so it would just be a different use of the system, and that's what we're hoping with this new contractor for the system, they might be able to be building in some reporting that can just be generated ad hoc or on a regular basis that can be provided to understand so that someone doesn't have to have access to the database, scrub the confidentiality names and run some data. So they're trying to automate, that's what I was looking for, they're trying to like potentially automate some [59:01] Susan Hawes: of that as well. Some of the other things I think we need to remember is we have had conversations already about changing some of the guidelines when we do give grants to how do they report back to us. There's going to be accountability built into those right from the start. Now that's not going to take us back, we're going to have to work forward. The other thing I think is the committee that's going to be formed with the homeless response person and your committee that you were going to put together, there's going to be ideas come out of that too. I mean these are all the experts are going to be sitting around and talking about the same kinds of things that we are. I think we need to find time to have conversations including what they're working on after they get up and running. We've got to give them a chance to meet and decide what, how they're going to form the strategic plan, but as those plans are formed we all have access to ideas about what the strategies are going to be, how we're going to get there, and it's going to take a few conversations to get that done. So we've laid some groundwork. It just doesn't, it seems we've been stagnant for so long that now we wanna really go and get moving, but lay the groundwork and give it some time. I'm not saying I won't have this conversation a year from now, but I think we should be well on our way if we get that committee formed. [1:00:38] Speaker B (unidentified): And I would say, you know, it's so easy to see the challenges. There are some sparks of interesting things happening. For example, just to go back to the work that Bruce was doing, is one of the things that he was able to do is work with landlords and explore shared housing options. So that means a landlord has three bedrooms. It's rented to three different people with three different leases so if one person doesn't follow the lease not everyone is kicked out you know and sort of exploring what would that option look like what are the ordinances and the zoning that we may need to look at so there is some of that spark of creativity to think about how we can do things differently and get people support that they [1:01:25] Susan Hawes: that they want but those are also items that can be worked on together absolutely as we're doing this piece we can be doing absolutely this piece did you have your hand up before you did [1:01:36] Wayne Mallar: yeah okay well no you were talking about landlords do we do you work closely with the I don't remember the name of it but the Bangor landlords I can what is it something yeah the [1:01:52] Michael Beck: greater Bangor apartment owners yeah do you work with them I don't work with them Bruce has worked [1:01:57] Speaker B (unidentified): worked with and a couple of other staff, our shelter plus care worked with them individually, but we have not. [1:02:02] Wayne Mallar: Because I got a call from one of the board of directors of that group, wondering why no one's working with them because they were willing to do some work. [1:02:14] Speaker B (unidentified): And to Bruce, our new homeless response coordinator, you'll absolutely have conversations. There's a question. [1:02:23] Michael Beck: So the main recovery advocacy project has got a training coming up where they allow anybody to come and basically it's a simulation of folks who are coming out of prison, what it's like for them to get housing, to go through, like you were the person, what are the hoops, what are the barriers, and a chance to see. Do you know, it's going to be in Augusta, do you know if that's something that's the kind of training that's been done elsewhere? [1:02:48] Speaker B (unidentified): I'm not aware. I know that Jen and Jenna had put on some local trainings here around motivational interviewing and trauma informed, but I'm not aware of something that's been done more locally to do simulation. Okay. [1:02:59] Michael Beck: It's a great idea. Yeah. The reason I'm asking is because I would like to engage in something like that just in general. Absolutely. You know, seeing it firsthand as opposed to firsthand you can get, gives a better understanding. It is easy for me who's not on the front lines to sling arrows in what I see, but to actually be in it. It I think would also be helpful. It'd be phenomenal I [1:03:23] Speaker B (unidentified): could see that repeated for different situations. [1:03:25] Joseph Leonard: Yeah. Okay. [1:03:28] Susan Hawes: Any notes for Jen? The chief is making his way to the table. Thank you, Jess. Okay. Good evening. Good evening. Would you like to give us an update on BCAT? What's going on? Well, sure. [1:03:54] Speaker C (unidentified): Sure, so BCAT was formed in 2023. You know, the purpose of BCAT is to have a alternate response model other than a police officer to issues such as a personal crisis, welfare checks, mental health issues, something where a call for a person that's in crisis where a police officer may not be the appropriate response and somebody with a different level of response who can spend more time with the individual and find a solution in that moment is the better response model and that was the reason for BCAT and BCAT was modeled after programs on the west coast Olympia Washington had a program that we were very interested in and that's that's how we modeled BCAT stands for Bangor Community action. [1:04:45] Susan Hawes: The job question I thought I saw your hand twitch. [Wayne Mallar: My bad eye.] Any general questions? [1:04:57] Carolyn Fish: And also, you have a community and officer I don't I know, I wrote I had the pleasure one day of meeting Officer Asha Bluegrass. And is that a different position? Or is that is she part of the VCAT? [1:05:09] Speaker C (unidentified): So she's on a military assignment, but we still have that position. It's unfilled right now. That position is separate from CAT. So BCAT operates with our community service group, the community service officer. Ash, that program was developed to engage our seniors, to work with our schools, to be more community based, but both BCAT and the community service officer have been drawn into the unsheltered population issue and they spent all their time dealing with that and they're not really focusing on the intent which BCAT was going to help folks in crisis and the community service officer was going to work with our seniors and our school-aged children and so forth. Neither of those do everything is everything is homelessness now and that's primarily our focus for those two programs. [1:06:05] Carolyn Fish: So, you know, our offices are typically the first ones that will recognize a new homeless person. Typically, I know there's two or 300. I know it's probably hard, but I think that day after day after day you kind of come familiar with those that are part of our community and those that arrive new. And if they are camping and we have rules and ordinances against camping, how do your police respond? Well, even with, I guess, our Bangor area that you're used to seeing, how is that approached? How do you enforce the laws and the rules and for no camping so the encampments don't [1:06:54] Speaker C (unidentified): get engraved? So it depends where that's occurring. We don't allow camping in parks in uncertain public areas. Virtually all public area is off limits to overnight camping, but as you remember the campsite behind the Hope House that was a permitted site and that grew considerably. When we engage somebody who is as say just for conversation purposes is camping in a park, we ask BCAT to engage them first. We would like to find a better option for that person, help them into a shelter, into a better solution or if appropriate and if upon their request return them to their home community where their support is and where their family is. Rarely is the first contact with a police officer unless BCAT is unavailable. And if BCAT is unavailable, then a referral is made for BCAT to connect with that person the following day. So in every instance, we try to find a sensible solution before having to force the person to relocate based on the fact that it's not permitted behavior. Camp sites form largely because where they are located is either a private property or in the case of the site again behind the Hope House on Cleveland Street it was permitted. Questions [1:08:24] Susan Hawes: I'll ask one oh just [1:08:27] Wayne Mallar: because I haven't said anything I know he's waiting to hear from me. I'm curious how important do you think it is to get back to servicing the senior citizens in the area? I think we are a [1:08:41] Speaker C (unidentified): Community of seniors, we have a very large population of seniors, and you referenced Liz Ash. Liz was very closely connected with the eastern area. I always, I can't say this right, but Agency on Aging, and we were, we were very much in connected with our senior population. But I mean, we are taken away from you now, so yeah, we are, we're much like all of the city departments. We respond to what the need is currently is to stress our unsheltered population, and that's where we spend a significant amount of Our time. BCAT, you know, its formation was a four-person team. We only have two at the moment. We've never actually ever had a four-person team. It's a difficult work. We've had significant turnover in that group, and we're struggling to find enough members to actually build a four-person team. We are still working six days a week with them. We are working them well beyond what we should be. They're working a lot of hours, but the need is there, and we're doing our best to meet that need. [1:09:43] Wayne Mallar: They would be available if seniors needed assistance. Absolutely. I'm pushing for the seniors being one of them. [1:09:53] Speaker C (unidentified): Yeah, I mean, if we're going to talk about seniors for a moment, you know, during storms, when we become aware of seniors that don't have family support, we are very concerned about our seniors, certainly during storms or suspected potential power outages. We want make sure that we are checking on our seniors and that, you know, that's important. That would be a BCAT function if not otherwise engaged with current duties, for sure. Yes, yeah, so [1:10:25] Joseph Leonard: When asked, this is years ago, so it's okay if you don't want me to answer off the top of, I recall that BCAT originally falling under the police department, and please correct me if I'm wrong, Chief, was it the plan to try to eventually turn BCAT into either its own entity or to get it out of the umbrella of the police department, or is currently right now the idea to maintain BCAT under the umbrella of the police department? [1:11:00] Speaker C (unidentified): So initially BCAP, so, and that was a good model, but there was some structure issues and the manager eventually left that program. So we absorbed the program into the police department and that's where it sits today. Would there be a time, and I have talked with Director Gunderman about this, would there be a time when BCAP might be better suited for public health? Very possible, yes. Yes. It didn't really change the way they worked or the way that their model to responsive. We, BCAT works very closely with public health staff, with fire department, EMS, with the PATH team, the home team options. They work with social workers from both hospitals, with the warming centers, with the managers of the shelters, and BCAT is very much in the community working with the providers. So, yeah, I mean, currently right now, the model is working. Working well. We have a new supervisor who is very much engaged, and we have one team member who joined us a year ago, and she did this work in a suburb of Phoenix. She very much understands this work, and she's been a phenomenal addition to our team. [1:12:16] Joseph Leonard: To follow up, what has been really at its core the primary struggle with BCAT in general in terms of maintaining and growing the department at this point in time? [1:12:40] Speaker C (unidentified): Well, I think it's difficult work. We certainly put a lot of pressure on him during the winter months. Right, it is difficult work. They responded in 2025 to just over 1,800 calls, and these are calls that would take, these aren't calls that are 10 or 15 minutes, these are calls are sometimes gonna be two to three hours trying to find a solution for a person, reconnecting that person with their case manager or relocating them back to their home community, where in loading their property and so forth, and helping them get back to Rumford or Portland or Millinocket. So these calls take time. And I mentioned a moment ago, we're operating a four person team with two. So we are expecting a lot of them. But they get the work done. But it is, it is taxing, and it is, it is difficult work for sure. [1:13:29] Joseph Leonard: Sure. I guess the reason why I asked that, and you actually answered one of my upcoming questions, which was the average call time for specifically calls that they go to, like two to three hours. So with 1800 calls that they about answer right now, and what was the annual amount of calls that we had last year? Do you know off the top of your head? Total call? Yes. 36,000, 36,000. Okay. So and the amount of training that it takes for a BCAT officer to go through, as opposed to a police officer's training? Just in comparison, just so that we can all be aware, how much training does it take to create a Bangor City police officer as opposed to a BCAT officer? How much time and training does it take? [1:14:23] Speaker C (unidentified): Well, a police officer attends a police academy and then comes back to us for training, it's a year. It's an entire year before a police officer is able to, before he and she gets ready to respond to calls by themselves, a bcat officer. We like them to attend mental health first aid, arcane training, personal safety training. There's a number of trainings that we do internally that might align with some law enforcement type training for, you know, how to, how to remove yourself from a dangerous situation, things of that nature. But it's far, you know, it's, it's months, it's months. I think we have created a training module for bcat, and a quick study of that would suggest that we can fully train a bcat responder in six months fully with, so they understand everything that we're hoping that they can get, they can accomplish when they're by themselves. The intent of bcat, I will share with you, is to be a two-person response model at all times. Obviously, we're not accomplishing that right now because we have two people working opposite schedules, but they always have a police, they always have a radio, they always have contacts, so if they need a police officer or another responder to be with them, we're quick to respond [1:15:30] Joseph Leonard: respond to help of those 36,000 phone calls. How many of those phone calls are calls that if we had the manpower to send a beat cat, what percentage of those would you say at the top [1:15:45] Speaker C (unidentified): yeah, it's okay, you can guess, it's general. I mean, generally speaking, 20 of our calls during the course of any day is related to the unsheltered population, which we want to talk about, we want to include mental health calls, called with perkins struggling with substance abuse issues or mental health complications, that jumps it up to just about a third of our calls each day. We could most certainly, with a larger bcat response mock team, send them to more calls, we absolutely could, but i will share with you that i feel that this team is being, it's very successful. And with just two people, we are indeed doing very good work. If we had four people, it would be that much better. If we had six, even better. [1:16:33] Joseph Leonard: I guess my last question is because I'm glad to hear that's 20%, whereas I think years ago it was like about half of all time for an officer was spent with people that were unhoused. So it seems like that number has gone down. And please correct us if that changes. But even still, with that number being so high, it tells me that there is a lot of value to maintain at least this four-person staff, if not to expand it further. there. I guess so. So we can, we don't need to talk about that the latter. But my, initial question I want to really try to solve right now is, what is what can we do as a council to make sure that we can maintain a four person team? Because it seems like that's going to help us out immensely in the aggregate and also in the police department's aggregate when it comes to answering 911 calls? [1:17:40] Speaker C (unidentified): Well, I don't know if there's anything you can actually do at the moment. I feel that the council and the city manager's office are most certainly supportive of this program. We are in the process right now of conducting background investigations on two potential employees. One we're fairly excited about and believe that this person is going to do, will be a nice fit and we'll join our team hopefully in the in the coming weeks and I don't I can't speak to the other person I don't know where we are with that the next time we speak I'd like to be able to report to you that we are fully staffed I feel like if we are fully staffed and then maybe six eight months down the road I can speak with the city manager and say you know we might want to consider adding another Person if this if the funding is available I can't I can't provide you that information I don't I can't tell you if we need four we need them we've never had four I will tell you that we've had three pretty steadily and three is fantastic so four must be we'll get that much better we'll get there it's much like you remember we talked about you know just three or four years ago we were down 11 12 police officer positions and this past summer we were fully staffed we're down six right now it's Everything is a moving target but I'm pretty confident that we'll be able to fill our staffing. I think both in BCAT, dispatch, and patrol, I'm not all that concerned about it. We will get there. [1:19:02] Susan Hawes: I'm sure we'll have further discussions as well during budget time and others. [1:19:08] Joseph Leonard: So I have a fairly complicated question. You might not be a Lancet chief. Jen might be, though. Certainly, she can. But if it comes to the HMIS entry point system, and I'm just curious as to if an individual person a BCAT officer could be an entry point for that data. Is that something that we can do or like implement? [1:19:35] Speaker B (unidentified): Yes, right now for, sorry. Right now, our city outreach person is an HMIS data entry person. So if BCAT had somebody that needed to be entered or reassessed, that would be an easy warm handoff to us. However, if that was ever something BCAT wanted to do, we could work with the Hub 7 coordinator to make that happen. I don't think it's been a barrier. I don't think there's anybody who hasn't been in the system or assessed because [1:20:10] Joseph Leonard: they went to bcat and couldn't get it no thank you that 's they're very informed if you yeah i'm good thank you yeah you have a question for the chief [1:20:29] Carolyn Fish: and for the downtown section, and I know we have a downtown priest, and if you had to guess, has that helped where you showed on BCAT, have that interaction, or for the interaction that DCAT had with our homeless and the issues downtown? I guess where I'm going with that, I'm just wondering if the money and this and the effects, the money we've got down there, if that might be better rethought and we've had more BCAT, or if you've seen a significant improvement with [1:21:06] Speaker C (unidentified): that, and it's very helpful. I don't know that there's been a significant change with regard, got the BCAT responses downtown. BCAT is still responding to persons in crisis issues, mental health issues downtown. So I don't know that there's been a significant change with Street Plus. I don't have a really good answer other than I can tell you that BCAT is called to all corners of the community when there's a person in crisis and it's not a dangerous situation where they can, they can intervene and hopefully engage the person in some of that current situation than what they're currently in. She wanted to piggyback off of your question [1:21:53] Joseph Leonard: does G Plus share any information with the police department, if any at all, you know, it [1:22:01] Speaker C (unidentified): the answer is yes, it's, we're, we're building that process now. I don't know that there's been a constant sharing of information, but I believe that Jeremy Brock, who's the new supervisor in the community service unit, is building that relationship right now and working with the downtown partnership to maybe forge a more fruitful partnership than [1:22:30] Joseph Leonard: maybe what we've had previously. So, but up to this point, pretty minimal though, yeah [1:22:37] Speaker C (unidentified): that, I think that's fair to say. Okay, thank you. Okay [1:22:41] Susan Hawes: all right, do you have any wrap up, anything [1:22:46] Carolyn Fish: Else I guess the only wrap-up item I have is I'm very actively working on a draft of a committee that tries very hard to do what I think you told me to do, incorporate some of the concepts from Counselor Beck's proposal with the one that the city created. Very hopeful that it will meet that call, and so that will, I think, the next opportunity we'll have to show that he will either use at maybe the next council workshop or gov ops meeting, depending on how it all works out, but that's very much in the works. Next step will be to sort of circulate it more broadly to all the departments to give their input to before it comes to [1:23:32] Susan Hawes: So, great. Well, I'm sure we'll have more conversations around these topics the further we get into this. Thank you, Chief. Thank you, Director Gunderman, for your presentations, being willing to come and talk. So if there's nothing else, I think we will adjourn. It is 6.45, somewhere thereabouts. So have an enjoyable evening. We do not have a meeting of the council tomorrow night. We have a few things. We do. Well, thank you all.