Bangor council weighs railroad encampment deadline and housing update

[0:12] Susan Deane: Click your live. Good evening, welcome to the city council workshop. It's Monday, December 8th, and it's 5 15. Around the table we have Councilor Fish, Councilor Deane, we don't do this enough, Councilor Walker, Councillor Carson, Councilor Faloon. We have Mike Myatt from Bangalore Housing. I'm sorry, I didn't know you're Bethany. I'm also with Backward, okay, and so Bethany. And we also have Councillor Leonard, and we have now just being seated, we have Councillor Beck, who has now joined the discussion, and I believe Michael you're [0:55] Mike Myatt: first on the agenda. Yep, I wasn't sure how much time you wanted me to have. You can go 15 minutes, questions and answers. If you both want to interrupt us, please do. We're happy to answer, but we like to come and do this every couple years as members change and sort of introduce you to your local housing authority. We kind of like to say at Bangor Housing, we're the largest public housing authority not in the housing business, and what I mean by that is we're in the family business, and one of the people business. Our number one overarching goal as an agency is to reduce or eliminate generational poverty for our over 2500 residents that we serve every day, most of which are young families, almost a thousand kids in our projects, mostly in the Cape Hearth neighborhood. In any given year, we could be 20% of Bangor's public school population, which is pretty amazing, because in terms of our history, we bought the old airport space. When Dow closed, Cape Hearth essentially was for sale, and that's the housing that we own and operate. Collectively we have nine projects right now, three in the works, for almost a thousand units by the time we finish what we have in the works. We have a project at the end of Sunset Avenue, 50 apartments for seniors currently under construction. We have a brother sister project going to be in the same piece of land for another 50 for seniors, and we also have a project Home for Good project that we're partnering with Purple Street that I want to talk a little bit more about a little bit later, and we Focused on the development of senior housing more so right now. Our waiting lists are not measured in months, they're measured in years, to the fact where we actually, Counselor Hawes, have closed a lot of our senior housing waiting lists just because it's five or seven years deep. I never want to produce sort of false hope for a lot of our seniors, and our philosophy is if we can build a home for a retired hired person, someone who's worked their whole life and doesn't have a lot to go with, maybe they've lived, maybe they're living on in Tree Streets or something. And if we can get them to sell their house and move into one of our projects, that single family home that they raised their kids on becomes available to another young family here in Bangor. And the rental that young family was starting out in now becomes available for maybe one of our college students that wants to stay in town, so we sort of look at it as a three for one. Obviously we want to develop more family housing. We've recently determined as a city that we're 700 units short right now of all shapes and sizes in Vancouver, so we're trying to do the best that we can as one housing agency to try to put up any sort of dent in that we can. In addition to that, we also administer a voucher program called the Housing Choice Voucher Program administered by us through HUD. It's over 400 vouchers for over 100 landlords here in Bangor. That's a $4 million investment in Bangor every year. That really goes to the small owners, the two units, the three units, the four units that really want to participate in that program, but that's really good revenue for them and I just think that 's worth noting that 's a four million dollar investment through HUD that goes to Bangor every year. We work hard to try to make sure that continues to happen. There's a lot of proposed cuts in the HUD budget through the administration, and we're working hard to make sure that we try to keep what we have. When I also talked about our families, we have a lot of young, work-able folks with kids living in Cape Park that the number one thing they want to do is get out of public housing. They maybe grew up there as kids, maybe this is a second or third generation household living in public housing, and they just may not have the opportunities or the path to sort of figure out how to get out. So what we've done through our family self-sufficiency program is if a tenant comes to work, comes to live with us on minimum rent, which is 50 bucks, and says hey, I want to go back to school, I never fit, I started college but I needed, I needed to finish, I just, I've had, I've got kids, I can't afford daycare, you know, all the stuff that people struggle with on a day-to-day basis, we're like let's get you enrolled. So as they start with 50, the one really good thing HUD makes us do is as someone increases their life and makes more money, we just charge them more rent. That's just how public housing works. It's not really fair, but that's just how things work. Well, we can say if you're in FSS and your income goes up, so now you're renting $200, you got to pay us the $200, but the difference will set aside an escrow for you. So when you graduate and achieve your goal, which at the end has to be meaningful full employment, which is different for all of us, you can receive that escrow. So we've, I've got some data here where we've had income growth on average for residents have participated in this of over 36,000 by the time they graduate, and we've had 25 families leave public housing and buy a house. So we always say we want you to leave, we never want you to come back, and we never want you to let your kids come back, end it, end poverty right now for your whole family. And we don't do the work for folks, we show them pathways, and it's been the number one success story for us is helping families. Those are the cards we've been dealt. A lot of our colleagues across Maine and across the country serve mostly seniors, we serve mostly families, and so to the extent we can engage in this and help our folks improve their lives, it's been a huge success for us. So I talked a little bit about we've got 50 units under construction We've got another 50 units that we're hoping to start, although I think Main Housing is going to see probably no resources next year based on how the federal budget looks. We'll see how the continuing resolution may come out at the end of January, but we do have an award for Main Housing for a project called Home for Good, which is 30 units for the most chronically homeless folks living here in our city. And the one difference, I mean, people we've done housing for homeless, permanent housing for homeless but the one difference here is it comes with state funding for 24 7 on-site services and we've chosen to work with Preble Street for that Preble Street as you know now Preble Street's been in Bangalore for over 15 years they've worked had a veterans program here in Bangalore but more recently have taken over management of Hope House and i think done a really good job with that so when we approached mark and his team we knew it would be a good partnership but and these are state dollars this is not federal stuff, so we don't have to worry about the legislature. Was really supportive of understanding that we have a chronically homeless issue in our state, and so they've diverted part of the real estate state transfer tax that used to go to the general fund and added it to this pot for Home for Good. So we've got construction money, ready to go. We've got a site, we appreciate this council support for the site at 55 Cleveland, which was the site of the former homeless encampment, although we're going to carve off about a five acre parcel on the Main Avenue site as Main Avenue sort of elbows up to Corporate Drive. That site sort of tucked in behind those long, those really nice mature spruce trees along Main Avenue. We've got a contractor we've hired, the Joy Brothers. We've got design ready to go. We're in the midst of executing our option agreement with the city and we'll be ready to go i'm going to start construction mid-2026 on that 'll take a year to build but we will be able to say in mid-2027 we'll be able to start making a permanent dent for 30 folks struggling with chronic homeless here in homelessness here in bangor i think that 's that's not a short-term solution necessarily because we've you know we it doesn't help anything today but i think you can you can say that is part of a longer-term strategy for working on Homelessness here in the city, there's a second phase that's open for that. We're considering applying for a second phase and additional 30 units. We're just trying to work to make sure we have capacity to do that. We don't want to over promise and under deliver, and we partner with a ton of agencies. Our biggest partner is the Boys and Girls Club of Bangor. We support them because they help kids before school, and the Bangor School Department drops them off at the club after school, and we love to support that because it allows our moms and moms and dads to the work. Healthcare obviously is a large expense for our families, but I know that was a lot. I do have a fact sheet that I that I do have, I can hand it out. I don't think I have to point to you, so I'm still okay, and Counselor Dean, I have one for you as well, but I'm happy to answer any questions anyone may have of what we do and [10:30] Carolyn Fish: the 30 units that you would plan for the homeless, would they be the Bangor homeless [10:38] Mike Myatt: community? That's that's that's the intent. Yeah, so it's not based on a typical waiting list where okay, you were the first one to apply, so you're the first one we talked to. Home for Good sites are based on something called coordinated entry, so Purple Street is going to be reaching out to the folks that they feel will be best served by this project. So it's not you have 30 people lined up at the door the moment we open applications. It doesn't work like your traditional affordable housing project. Pebble Street will use the coordinated entry model, and Bengal Housing will provide vouchers to folks, so it's really not everyone who's homeless may be the best fit for living and inside frankly, so Preble Street will work to determine who needs it the most and really proactively go and work with those folks. I have one other question [11:33] Carolyn Fish: on phase two. I suspect is that the same location just expanding? I think if we were to have a we [11:41] Mike Myatt: could we could go up this up the hill a little bit on Cleveland Street. I don't know if that might be too much concentration in one area, but I think that's that's certainly a possibility, that entire site, Counselor, is 20 acres from Cleveland Street all the way to Main Avenue. We were just we're we're purchasing a small 20 of it essentially along Main Avenue, but it's it's like 4.8 or five, it's just over five. Yeah, we just had we said that before we had the survey, but we have to we actually surveyed The entire 20 acres, so the city has the benefit of the other piece. It's an option, it's a possibility. I like, I like that site because it's close to where Preble Street already is, so they have resources, they have staff, they have services around. But you know, you don't want to have too much concentration on any one thing, so we'd have to talk it through. [12:40] Susan Deane: Yes, could you remind me what the design is for these third units? Were they individual units or was it a more of an apartment type dwelling? They're 400, [12:47] Mike Myatt: they're more commonly known as like what you think is an efficiency apartment. They're 400 square feet, there'll be a small kitchen area and open living space. In one [12:59] Susan Deane: building or multiple buildings? 30 units in one building. How many stories? [13:04] Mike Myatt: We're actually going to do one story, so if you picture the site, it slopes up a little bit on Main Avenue until you get to the spruce trees. What we're thinking about doing is, it's important programmatically for Preble Street to be able to say I can see every door, I can see every hallway, so they're going to be in the middle. You're going to look one down, one down one hallway this way, line of sight, and you can see down this hallway, other line of sight. It's all on the first floor, which we like because we don't have to necessarily do like multi-story, we don't have to build elevators, all that stuff's expensive. We wanted to put drains in the floors for cleaning purposes, but Prebble Street didn't want to have the ability for folks living outside to knock on someone's window, because that's what happens when it gets cold. You and I get housed and the group of folks that we've been living with outside for years didn't, we're going to want to let our friends in, which then jeopardizes our house so the point of the 24-7 services is that privilege there to support, so we don't jeopardize our housing, even though we dire, you know, and dyers need to help our friends outside. So the way the building will be set up with the elevation is that you won't be able to reach the windows, even though it's a first floor establishment, but to not have to do additional stairwells with elevators is going to save a bunch of money [14:26] Susan Deane: so this is a tried and true design used elsewhere. We're using an architect firm [14:31] Mike Myatt: Called Garvin Turgeon Dylan, they've designed a project called Florence House, which is a home for good project in Portland, and my previous employer 20 years ago, I helped to build one with the rest of Housing Purple Streets, the only entity in Maine that's helped provide services to the other three. I will certainly sit here and say to you that the team that we put together is extremely capable of doing this, and it'll be a success. Thank you. Yep. [15:04] Michael Beck: Another question about, you know, with all the talk about the funding changes coming from the federal level on vouchers, do you have a sense if the 400 voucher that you're administering, how they're going to be affected by those changes at all? That's a great question. HUD and Congress [15:19] Mike Myatt: us really like the voucher program. They really don't like public housing, so we're actually trying to divest ourselves of our public housing and essentially flip it to private based ownership with project-based vouchers. So our operating subsidy, which is public housing, which is Section Nine, has just gone like this over the years. Vouchers, which is Section Eight, has constantly sort of gone up. So I think as we convert again, if Congress just does another continuing resolution, I think that's good for us, that's good for our vouchers. If Congress actually approves the HUD appropriations bill that Senate and House debated, that's even better for vouchers. It's horrible for public housing. So I think vouchers historically have been really good, and I think they'll continue to grow. But I will say one thing is we only get, even if we grow as the market, as the price of a voucher goes up, we continue to somewhat not necessarily grow the number of vouchers, we're just keeping up with the demand of the [16:26] Susan Deane: inflation on the units until Walker. Yeah, I was just when you talked about the self-sufficient [16:32] Angela Walker: program, is that the in initiatives? I'm wondering who does that, who helps individuals with that. Is it case management? Do you guys have those kind of resources? Yeah, it's [16:45] Mike Myatt: almost outside of maintenance, it's our largest division housing. We have five coaches that will work with folks, coaches as in life coaching, sorry, I mean we call them achievement coaches. Okay, so if we have a, you know, sort of a young mom that just moved in and she just doesn't have that ability necessarily to go back to school because she has daycare and transportation issues, we can help provide resources and sort of how to get there, because we've got success stories that we've had other moms Young moms sort of achieved that [17:20] Angela Walker: goal. Do you have resources? I didn't see anything. I know you mentioned the Boys and Girls Club for substance use recovery. Are you guys resourcing out for [17:35] Mike Myatt: that or I don't think we have anything specific for recovery, but we work with a lot of other different agencies, so if we if we identify someone who may need that, we certainly would direct them to a partner agency. The only sort of on-site sort of somewhat clinical stuff we do is a program called Moms, where it's a partnership through DHS and Yale University, where we actually have a of a licensed clinician on site that helps identify moms suffering with depression. And we have a cohort that's been pretty successful so far. [18:14] Carolyn Fish: Dr. Fish. I think the latest main economic and demographic forecast report for 2026, they indicated they suspect 33% to 35% of funding toward housing to not be there. It'll be you know 33% less. SNAP is going to be substantially perhaps affected by that as well. So with this has that taken that into consideration? The report [18:46] Susan Deane: also mentioned vouchers being greatly impacted. Yeah, that study was I think [18:52] Mike Myatt: related to funding through the continuum of care. Those are more sort of state vouchers. There's over 1,200 of them that would just disappear overnight. Essentially ours are federally subsidized, similar in terms of how they work, different funding stream. The state stuff could be the state stuff that flows through the feds through the continuum could all disappear literally overnight, which would be really scary for thousands of folks here in Maine. You don't see that impacting your projects don't no I don't this is the home for good resources were dedicated through the legislature that doesn't mean legislatures don't change over time so we're going to have to I think the counselor Dean's question about how they're designed, we're going to design it so that if it wasn't a home for good site someone would still live there, but like I said the other projects in Maine that have received similar type support have been ongoing for 25 years [19:58] Joseph Leonard: I guess I have one. So we had a very interesting comment regarding how the federal government is starting to really not support public housing. And I, you know, it, this isn't something I expect you have an answer to, but my worry is that moving further toward a private model is only going to become a predatory for venture capital firms to eventually just acquire these properties and then just never rent them out, artificially decreasing the amount of the housing in the area. I just, I do worry about that. I know you have to make that move and completely understand where you're coming from, but there's a tremendous amount of [20:45] Mike Myatt: controls as that happens. I don't know that HUD would ever allow a transfer like that. So, and I mean to cut you off, but I think it is, so we have a related partner entity, the Bangor Housing Development Corporation, is a separately managed in terms of its board, but it's a, it's a 501c3 non-profit. So all our new development kind of happens through agency. So we're going to sell actually 75 units of our public housing, hopefully in the first, we were going to do it this month, but the shutdown kind of wrecked all those plans. So we have two projects, Griffin Park, First Circle. We're actually divesting out of public housing, selling it to the development corp, incorporating about our public housing subsidy converts to a voucher. So the tenants see no difference, but the really cool part for us is I can now go to a bank, which I can't lend on public housing, I can now go to a bank and say I've got this asset that's worth, that's got some value. So we're going to borrow $3 million from Bangor Savings Bank do a bunch of upgrades to those units. And the cool part is that residents don't have to leave, they can continue to access all of our programs, we get to make the place a better place to live, and we'll have, we'll have revenue certainty for the next 30 years, versus waiting on what Congress may do every 30 days with a continuing resolution. If we were going to just flip it to market, HUD would never allow that. They may let it rot to the ground because they won't provide resources to it, but they would never allow those sort of negative impacts to the residents, which is a good thing. Yeah, I hope. Well, yeah, as it stands [22:26] Daniel Carson: right now, anytime you're divesting from public housing, it has to be transferred to a non-profit [22:31] Carolyn Fish: and for government plans, that protection, to your point, for now is still in place. Yeah, things can [22:37] Mike Myatt: Change but things can change. At least the one thing with us is we wanted to be able to control that. The number one, we had two goals. One, we wanted to get out of public housing, and two, we wanted to make sure our residents were always protected. So this allows us to be able to say, okay, Griffin Park and Burke Circle are now, they have a solid plan for the next 50 years. They're going to be good. We applied for tax credits for Nascent Park, which is our mid-rise on Hancock Street. Didn't get those. Resources, a lot of those state resources for new construction outside of home for good are gone. So we've got to figure out what to do at Nascent Park, but in the meantime it's fine, it's ongoing. But and K-Part's the big bear. It's it's 440 units that could be 115 million dollar project that and that's not something you just get from a local bank. But and it's 80 something years old. It's going to need more work than the projects we had that were built in the 90s. But we're not going to give up and we'll make it happen. It might be in phases. And I had three things that was not necessarily asked, but things I wanted to just mention to the council. We have, we built a splash pad, which I think is the largest city Park here in Bangor, and sometimes during the summer we might have four or five hundred people there. It's now become a destination. We have the Lincoln and Wynn schools always come down the end of the school year for field trips. It's people are accessing that splash pad, which is why we built it. But when you drive on Davis Road from Ohio Street to Finson Road, it is a it's a 25 mile an hour zone. Speed limit signs are at each corner, but it's a dead shot flat three quarters of a mile. And if we could incorporate or have conversations with public works about some sort of traffic calming measures, particularly right in front of the opportunity center where we might have 120 kids in and out of the club every day, plus traffic calming stuff sort of maybe like from Acadia Place to the opportunity center. I mean, people can go pretty fast. It's 25 and even if you're going 45 and you've got cars in the road, I just if we could come up with some sort of solution together about traffic calming, I think would be really important. One thing that we also struggle with is board membership. This body appoints our commissioners. We have seven of them and we currently have six. We just had, you just appointed a commissioner to us last month, and when I had my intro call with him and he realized We met at a certain date and time. He was like, well, I can't do that. So he literally resigned before he started, which is good because he was committed to his other work. The state statute allows commissioners to be within the area we serve, which is Herman, Hamden, Glenburn, and DC. I know it hasn't been the traditional additional situation where you wouldn't, you've always appointed members from Bangor, but the statute allows you to appoint from within the areas we serve. So if we had someone that lived in Herman that wanted to apply to be on our board. You can appoint that person. It's consistent with the statute. You have the authority to do that. We've just never done that. that but we have a staff of over 50 folks we have a 20 million dollar budget we have to have meetings because there are business items that we have to do and our volunteer board is amazing awa who works here for the city is our chair she's a wonderful spokesperson for our work but we've also got board members that have been on our commission for over 20 years who understand the way hud works and they're incredibly valuable i think they're closer to retirement we 're asking to see if we can expand the pool of folks interested in working with us. You know, we don't mean we need 11 times a year. We don't, maybe we might take a month off in the summer for vacations, but I would encourage the council to, if you happen to see an application from someone, I don't have anyone in mind, but if you had someone from another, in one of those areas that we served, or we could even work with the city clerk to advertise in that way, you are allowed to appoint. Point, and I think we are in dire need of having more folks interested in working with us at a, at a board level. So lastly, our resident council brought to our attention that we just have, we have a handful of streets, six or seven streets that actually don't have sidewalks in Capehart. Most of Capehart has sidewalks, and public works has done a good job expanding stuff along Finson Road, but all of the kids that go to Downey School walk to Downey School. The bus doesn't necessarily pick them up to Downey School, and I think as maybe budgets are being worked out and you're thinking about infrastructure grants, sidewalks and traffic calming measures I think are something that's absolutely needed in K-Power, and that was it for us. Those aren't necessarily asked, but things I'd like to just put on your radar screen, and I probably took up too much time, but no, you're fine. [Carolyn Fish: Okay, yeah.] Anyone's always welcome to call, consider us an extension of the housing brand for the city. If you have any questions, always just pick up the phone or come because we'd love to show you what we're doing for work. So thank you for having me. I always appreciate the update. Thank you. [28:21] Susan Deane: Have a nice evening. Jen, just start making your way here, please. All [28:47] Carolyn Fish: right. Looking at time, I think we should try to target to [28:51] Susan Deane: be going into executive session around 615. So I'll keep an eye [28:56] Carolyn Fish: on that. So it's been about two weeks now that we've been discussing the railroading encampment. And so I wanted to start by giving you an update on where we are, and then at last council meeting there were some discrete items that you asked us to come back to you with, and then I have another item that I'm hoping to get your input on. So first, it has undoubtedly been a challenging week for our neighbors living outside. Over the course of the last seven days, it's been freezing cold and we've had two instances of snow last week and over the weekend. The cat and the park ranger have made frequent visits to the encampment on the railroad to check on individuals and to offer transportation to warming centers. Also in that space, as you know, last week the city heard from the main Department of Environmental mental protection about concerns associated with the encampment and the river. This was triggered by a report of items including trash and human waste being either thrown into or nearby the river, and expect inspection was supposed to occur today and I had emailed you about that. It did not take place because Maine DDP wasn't able to coordinate with the railroad. So I don't have a substantive update for you on that particular topic today. In recent days, since we talked last week, we have heard from the railroad and they've started to express their own safety concerns with the snow and the folks living next to the railroad, and so we do expect in the next couple of days to receive a formal request from the railroad to ask people to relocate, and the conversation today has been, can we please at least keep it to the December 19th date and not try to expedite that, because I think that could be very disruptive to folks who are living there if it is more quick than that, and I think we all acknowledge that December 19th date, it's already a pretty aggressive target date. Some of the other things that are happening right Now, in preparation, so we are, or we will be in the next day or two, set up to formally offer storage to folks who need it if they choose to move from that space and need to store items. A con xbox is being delivered down. Many of you probably don't know, but we're at the engineering department was temporarily located during the city hall renovations. It's going to be located down there for easy access, and we have staff that are going to manage sort of a formal process to store items. Jen has been working closely with the hub 7 coordinator. The hub 7 and coordinator has been hosting care coordination meetings and maintaining a by name list, and Jen has been sending out information and hosting office hours with the service provider community. We've also been slowly chipping away at remedying the transportation barrier that residents might face if they choose to go to a warming shelter. The city has and will continue to purchase tickets it's for public transportation, whether that's local or if folks are looking for a broader sense for doing that. We've also learned that there's some service providers that are going to assist with van transportation for folks who need it, and when that info is firmed up, there will sort of go out to the broader service provider community. Public health has historically assisted case managers with procuring documentation that folks need IDs or birth certificates to assist them in applying for vouchers and benefits and will continue to do so. I think I already mentioned to you single paper pet boarding if there are individuals who have pets with them who would like to enter a living situation where they cannot bring their pets. Jen has also compiled information about warming center utilization so far this winter. Sort of swimming with a broad stroke, there have been roughly 80 individuals utilizing warming centers overnight currently, and the city's total capacity is about 160 spaces. Spaces so we're about how half full, and that does mean that there is adequate warming centered space should books not move into that space. Certainly the place where the city is weaker is with respect to day Center space, which is something we've already communicated to you previously. Anecdotally, the BCAT folks that are most frequently in the encampment area have sort of anecdotally reported that they do sort of see more vacant spaces than there were previously, but not sort of large scale. Any questions on that before I move to sort of the deliverables and [34:46] Susan Faloon: Items that you asked for, thank you. So regarding, so you're procuring a space for storage of their belongings, will that include helping them move their belongings as well? So typically, [35:04] Mike Myatt: If you know, typically the way that works is someone works with a case manager and one of our staff members, and there's a process where we inventory, take pictures, put things in a bin, wrap it up, give somebody a copy of the inventory, and hold on for so many months. If somebody doesn't have a case manager, and BCAT or our city outreach person will help that person, but usually this is something that the case manager will do with that person as part of their ongoing support. Okay, and what would happen, Yeah, so what would happen is the case manager would contact our department and we would set up a time to go through the inventorying process, get the bins sealed and put. [35:53] Susan Faloon: Would they have access to their belongings during that time, or is it like they can't, if they want to just get something out of it, you know, they don't necessarily want to take everything out, but they can access it. [36:04] Mike Myatt: So that's a balancing act. We want to set expectations realistic. So yes, they can access. They do have to set up an appointment with us and we'll try to make it as quick as possible. But just because we basically have one part-time staff person working on it, we usually say, do you have everything that you're going to need for the next couple of weeks? We understand that things come up and we would help people access what they need, but we try and keep it organized as much as possible. And so that our staff are able to do the other things that they have to do for their work. [36:38] Michael Beck: It's okay, so now that we're getting the railroad involved and it sounds like the Main DEP got their attention, I guess my question is this is railroad land, and when the Main DEP comes through and they cite it and they will, we know it's there, this is going to be the responsibility of the railroad to do the cleanup and everything, I'm assuming, like that's where I'm at, is that the railroad now needs to foot the bill for this, not us, and that also goes with the closure, I mean, they want folks off that. Land I guess now I've kind of changed my perspective that why are we being the bad guys now you know at this point I think the railroad needs to step in because you know this is their land so I just want to make sure we're very mindful and we're talking with them that they need to understand that there's gonna be some big costs involved and they need to write the check for this that's that's where I'm at I just want [37:37] Daniel Carson: A voice agreement that I don't think we should be doing an expensive cleanup for a railroad that makes as much money as it does I [37:51] Susan Faloon: Guess my concern is will they do the cleanup that's a concern I don't expect anyone to be able to answer that but that's just a concern that I want to vocalize because I don't think we want to just leave it in you know as a hazard I think you know I agree I think we have to be [38:14] Carolyn Fish: Aggressive they've ignored us they really haven't been cooperative so I feel the same way and maybe we build them and we leave you know I just think we have to just not say well they're not going to do it oh well I think we have to think about being a little more aggressive about cooperation in this particular case it's the railroad but I can see other avenues where there's other towns or other residual you know topics related to this that I think we have to be more aggressive to get better Cooperation communication and collaboration so I totally agree [38:57] Angela Walker: So I was thinking about the what it looks like I know having one part-time case manager whatever you said to move the stuff to storage and being able to access the storage there's going to be a lot of panic there's going to be a lot of uneasiness about this and I understand that you know I've read a ton of emails about the support of the camp and I came in here with my mind set on something else with you saying that we actually heard from the railroad. I actually, I do agree with the counselor back on. We need to ask them to help fund some of the, all of it at this point, because we're asking a community, our friends, our homeless community to uproot their home. Like if I was to go home tonight and have to move out of my home, I don't know what I would do. I would probably not be well and I think that I'm just beside myself as far as like the storages are a good idea but like they go so we're using 80 beds and there's 160 and how many do we have down at the camp do we have a number of [40:10] Mike Myatt: People do you know John? I believe when I looked at the banning list that Path just talked about with the care coordination, I think they were talking [40:17] Angela Walker: about the 42 people i do like that you know now there's talk because i do i believe there are pets there i do like that we're willing to that there 's a plan for pets to go with their owners somewhere that where they'll be safe but i just think that there needs to be a lot more planning and it needs to happen immediately the 19th is right around the corner like some of us are like oh christmas is right around the corner like the 19th is right tomorrow and it's cold out. I did hear somebody in the building say something about how they're gonna move their stuff. It's gonna be with a shopping cart. We see it all day, every day. I wanna make sure that some of these things aren't just, we're just not sitting here saying it. I wanna make sure that there's a plan. If that involves you guys reaching out to me, I will help with that as well to help people move their stuff. I don't know what that would look like, but I mean this is their property, this is all that they own. I do get emotional about it. I think that all the concerns have been read. I read every email that came through and I'm in favor of, I really just scary, it's very scary and I appreciate you bringing the information, but I definitely we need more of a plan to really support it. Like what, we can't just go in and be like the 19th here, let's go, like and we're going to be in our homes, but like you know I'm one bad decision away from being homeless, you know, so like I have goosebumps right now because we can sit here and say oh we got to be in a different meeting in 15 minutes, but like what does this actually look like? And I'm glad that the railroad did reach out, but we as a city and a team need to come together and be like what can we do? Let's be boots on the ground and help figure this out because it's going to come and then it's going to be bad. [42:20] Michael Beck: That's it, thank you. That's okay. Yeah, I mean this is my concern is that we're 11 days away, we're just now, just now talking about storage and the one thing I'm not hearing anything about is the 19 strategies because we've been, what, two closures since we knew about it and like to me that should have been the lead and the conversation that the city manager and I had with residents. It should have started with that as opposed to here's your, you know, BCAT gotta get out with, you know, three-year-old. Resources that part of them not even accurate anymore. This is just, it's not enough time, and this is going to be a disaster. And I and I, you know, I'm, I'm well aware of all the risks at the railroad and everything, but to do this well, we need more time. We just need more time. There's not enough people working on this. You know, the outreach workers are doing the best they can. We need more time. I'm in favor of just not a date, but a goal. We can't work towards a date, we have to work towards a goal. And in this case, and I think that this is what's probably gonna come up next in this conversations about the possibility of a safe outdoor space or an incentive camera, but we need to work towards a goal not a date, because we're not going to make the date and this is just gonna be bad for everybody. [43:44] Carolyn Fish: I think it's less than 42 now campers. I just got an email this afternoon and I'm, I will [43:59] Mike Myatt: will get back to you with the accurate number. But I remember seeing 42 in that email. But again, I will recheck that number. [44:05] Carolyn Fish: So of these, are we, you know, no matter how much time we get, I'm wondering about the 42 individuals, I think we have, there has been housing opportunities, but many of them have not been able to go for various reasons because of, well, some of it's because of the housing has been too expensive, it's not as their vouchers don't cover it, and so what percentage of the people could go to housing if they changed maybe some behaviors, or how many of the people just choose to be where they're at and don't really want to be open-minded to some of the other possibilities that we could get them in a safer space? [44:50] Mike Myatt: It's a great question. It's really hard to measure because people who have vouchers, so just to give a little bit of background, the PATH team is going into that space three days a week, Monday, Wednesdays, and Fridays. And they are sort of the first line of defense to go in there and work with people who have vouchers. And you're right, people are at many different categories of that voucher. some are they've got housing lined up they just have to sign a few things and they can move in some have a little bit more of a harder history whether it's with evictions or some criminal records that have a little bit more of a struggle and you have to find the right landlord some of them are waiting for documents and the path team and other case managers in that space are navigating all those pieces for those people to get eventually successfully housed and stay house and then there are people who don't have vouchers, and some of those people will go to warming shelters, some will not. It's a moving target every day for an individual person. Some days they just might be in really tough crisis and they are not willing, but not that they're not going, they're just, they don't know how to take a step forward. And there could be somebody who has decided I just can't go into a physical space because I have mental health challenges and it's, being in a warming shelter is really traumatic for me. So it's, it's kind of a moving target for everybody, depending upon where they're at that day, many times, and what it takes. What we have seen in our experiences, it's just that constant engagement, constant engagement. So to answer your question, what percentage are we at, I really don't know, because whatever I told you today, it's going to absolutely [46:35] Carolyn Fish: change tomorrow. It was just, the reason for the question was I just didn't know it, if we had a goal and not a day, if that, if the situation was going to change, whether we said 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. I think the complex situation with the group of people is going to be the same whether it's the 19th or 30 days or 60 days. So I don't know that time is probably part of the equation, and I think we're missing something else here. [47:06] Mike Myatt: Just to answer your question, I think if you're going to talk about time, we also have to talk about resources. I think you have to talk about both at the same time. We could extend for as long, but if we don't have additional resources, then we're going to be in the same place a month, two months, three months from now. [47:29] Susan Deane: Mr. Payne? When you were talking at our last meeting, I believe you said something about, you know, of course the date was set at the 19th, but you had mentioned if the individual actively engaged, that we would work with them. And what did you mean by that? Did you mean that we would extend their stay there until we could actually get them somewhere because they were actively engaged? Or did you just mean that we'll continue working with them? Oh, continue working. So the date was set for everyone. It's not... [47:56] Mike Myatt: No, my understanding is... [47:58] Susan Deane:...that you have a voucher that's being utilized or not. [48:01] Mike Myatt: Right, my understanding based upon decisions here and that we've been working with is December 19th was the day and people are just continuing to engage with people in that space to figure out where they're at and what can be the next step and what do they need to get there. [48:17] Susan Deane: And we haven't yet discussed, have we considered another area, have we found a place for them to [48:23] Carolyn Fish: go? It's actually number three on my list, but I sense an appetite to move to that one. So, at the last meeting you started discussing the idea of a sanctioned location for individuals to be directed. So we did start looking at a list, but I first want to sort of make sure that we're, we're all sort of talking the same language about what we think that means, because in sort of getting together with city staff and talking about the city's history in this space, it's clear to me that this is sort of a strategy that maybe has at least implicitly, if not explicitly, been tried before without the provision of resources as Jen just discussed, and site after site it seems like there's a pretty common pattern of directing votes to a particular location, the gradual increase of the number of people in that space, a decline in health and safety for those individuals living there, concurrently, an increase in the amount of public health and public safety resources that had to be directed there, and then the eventual decision to ask those people to relocate again. And that is not a good pattern for those people. And that is not a good pattern for the staff responding to it. No one is doing well with that situation. And so I'm hopeful that when we're talking about the idea of a sanctioned location for people to go, that we're also talking about the provision of resources to support those people, because I don't believe that it will otherwise be any different than the prior experience. I think Jen is pretty well versed in what best practices look like for something like a sanctioned encampment. She sent me a whole bunch of things on this topic for me to get versed, and some of the bare minimum components that I've seen are the room and shower facilities, stocked with supplies, electricity, potable water, garbage disposal, ADA access for people who require it, well-articulated and communicated policies and standards for behavior, as well as staff to enforce those standards for behavior, a perimeter fence that's controlled for entry and exit, so that the number of folks as well as folks who've had behavioral challenges can sort of be controlled in that space intensive on case services for folks to help them transition to housing without those sorts of services I think we're going to get back into a cycle that has not proved effective previously. With that being said, we did take the task of looking at some potential sites and as you might imagine there's no perfect site. There's no site where it's like yes everyone will be happy with this site, it will work seamlessly, let's go forward. Some of the sites that the city's staff discussed, one is was referred to as the bird sanctuary, which I understand to be near to the water power. There are some cons to that site, it's near to a child care center and I think we could anticipate that neighbors would not be pleased for us to identify that site and frankly community acceptance of the site would be a critical factor for success for everyone. We have talked about Co Park, particularly Co Park is bisected by a road and there's one side that could be used that would undoubtedly impact folks who use the park and could cause neighborhood upset. City staff discussed the camp hope site, there are some cons to that site and I think I was going to lead with Councillor Beck. In my meeting last week we met with some folks who are currently residing in the railroad area, I think they expressed some concern with that site as it relates to past trauma and experience there, so it might although it might be the most acceptable to the Broader community, it might not be great for the folks who would actually be residing there. And then we discussed Bass Park as a potential location because of the golf course and because of fair operations. That could not be a permanent location because that is a space that we have historically used for other purposes. The other option that city staff discussed extensively, instead of or in addition to a sanctioned encampment, is the possibility of the city investing heavily in day space to discuss to supplement the overnight warming center space. I think we have service providers already in that space who have provided resources could supplement the day space. We have opioid settlement applicants who are proposing to do a day space with services, and so that may be something that we want to talk about in addition to or in supplement of Ascension location. It's [54:58] Susan Deane: everywhere. Council Member Drew had [55:00] Joseph Leonard: your hand up. So because we now have the option of a site, regardless of the problems that come from any of these sites, we have to pick a strategy at this point and start the moving goal of rehabil, starting the rehabilitation process of making sure that these individuals are actually given a chance to survive and live. We have to do this humanely, though. And we also have to do this logistically in a rational manner. And so I also have to concur that if we're going to do this rationally, that the idea of getting everyone out of there on December 19 is a really great idea. Let's just be real, it's not going to happen. It's just not going to happen, and there's just going to be a lot of people who are going to be swept into the Bangor area system, and we're going to have the same issues like we did with the Camp Hope sweep and all the other sweeps beforehand, just more preventable trauma, more preventable diseases spread, not just throughout the ones critically affected, but also ones that interact with that community as well, because that negativity is going to spread to other individuals. So we have to get our strategy in place and we have to do it very quickly. So I mean, I think the idea of having a city day center is going to have to be something that we're going to do in the future. It's just a absolutely something that we're going to have to do in the future. I don't like the idea of utilizing a temporary site, but in lieu of some of the other issues related to the other site, the golf course area being a temporary site, if we know for certain that we can transition that encampment into a potential encampment into other housing or into the warming shelter and we actually give ourselves a hard set plan date of, this is where we are now, this is where we project to be in the future. I'm okay exploring that, but I don't want to set ourselves up for failure. I think we need a plan for the idea of a permanent site at this point. And we're going to have to come to terms with, we are not going to pick a perfect place, but we have to pick a place. So I guess that's the decision that we're gonna have to talk about now,, which is what is the site? What is the plan before we start the logistics of this? I [57:59] Daniel Carson: am interested to know. I know that there's not a perfect solution. I know that no matter what is available, some people choose not to go to places. But I do wonder, I am in favor of heavily investing in day space, especially if there are people who are going to do that. If we're able to do that, do you have then a recommendation on a location if both are true, right, if we're gonna have day space and does that sort of narrow down what the and piece could be here or I [58:41] Carolyn Fish: think the question is really challenging because when selecting a location it's not just about in my mind and I don't have a quote right it's not just about what is best for the people who are asking to move we're talking about the well-being of the broader community who have very diverse interests and needs and I think it would take a lot more time and thought to really go through the list of our complete community's entire needs to identify what would be the best location and would meet the most of those needs. It would be really premature to say one of these works best. [59:35] Susan Faloon: Have a couple of questions, I'll try to keep it quick in that deadline which is causing anxiety for the entire community. I think the kind of a soft deadline where you know we're working toward, you know, getting to zero, but if we get to the 19th and there are still a few folks there that we just don't like drive them out with no place to go, well, can I offer a [1:00:02] Mike Myatt: Strategy that we did with the encampment, just to throw this out there. Well, there are many lessons that we learned from the encampment. Some we never want to repeat again, some that we do. One strategy that was employed was as we got closer to the deadline, if someone was consistently engaging with outreach, caseworker, BCAT, city outreach, that there was more flexibility until they found their next right spot. So that is something that we've done in the past that could be considered. Again, if any of them who wasn't engaging in a regular basis past the deadline was asked to move on, and if they needed some help moving on. I'm just offering that as a strategy that was used previously. [1:00:53] Susan Faloon: My thoughts were that even if we do find a location for a sanctioned encampment, that it wouldn't, it maybe my understanding was kind of different, but that it wouldn't be permanent. That was sort of our short-term solution until we come to a longer term solution. I don't know, it sounds like maybe some of the folks might have different ideas of what that might be, but that was sort of what I was envisioning. That said, I think that having something like Bass Park that's got kind of a shorter deadline for moving on might not be the best spot, because we might need it for a little bit longer. But I'm not thinking this is something we're going to do forever, that we're going to, you know, as we work on a strategy come with, come up with a more long-term solution. It's just that, you know, we needed a place to send people rather than just say we don't know where you're going to go, but just you can't be here. So my thoughts, I know we're running out of time. [1:01:54] Susan Deane: So I'll just save my other questions. Council Dean, I have concerns about the bird sanctuary near Hilltop. Anytime children are involved, it's not a good situation. And Camp Hope, initially I thought that was pretty decent location, but we had a lot of folks from the university come to us with concerns. So once again, we're going back to an area that has already expressed concerns with what went on, and the changes won't be that dramatic. Bass Park, I don't know, because that seems like sort of a, yeah, there could be a lot of pushback on that. But are any of these places you're going to provide running water and electricity? I mean, these are just outdoor areas. So we still [1:02:41] Carolyn Fish: haven't addressed that. That would, that would have to be infrastructure that the city put [1:02:48] Susan Deane: In place. Absolutely. And we don't have an empty hotel anywhere. There's nothing, no actual dwelling that could be utilized. [1:02:58] Mike Myatt: No. I think what's interesting about that thought that is, we have warming shelters available. So if you're looking at because we have had the conversation with do we have an empty warehouse size building or whatever that could be for the city, but that is basically replicating a warming shelter, which we have beds available in three different locations. So I think that's part of a challenge to is there is availability at the moment [1:03:31] Wayne Mallar: Answer mail I'm curious when we close the lasting camera we own the land now the we're dealing with the railroad now if they say the 19th is the day we don't have any say in the matter because we don't own the land so I think we have to find out where they stand before we make too many decisions and be great to make a decision and then have them say no out today this is it and they can sweep the area and we have no control over it at all so I think you have to deal with the railroad first Before we can make any sound decisions [1:04:16] Joseph Leonard: What leadership do we have when we're discussing with individuals in the railroad encampment I don't think we're gonna be able to be successful in whatever measure we do unless we have consistent communication with them. Do we have individuals that we have identified as leaders of the encampment? And are we maintaining communication with them and sharing their strategies and insights with us as well? Because it's also gonna be really important to hear their perspective on all of these sites, not just Camp Hope as well. [1:04:51] Carolyn Fish: All your question was leadership within the folks that are living yes so counselor Beck was invited I don't speak for you Bible last week was invited to a meeting with folks who currently reside at baby cabinet and he invited me to come along so we both went I think it was very valuable to discuss with folks what their concerns and fears are. And they expressed that is something that they would like to do on more of an ongoing basis as we sort of march through this process, whatever it winds up looking like. And so one of the things I wanted to get your thumbs up on, because I feel like if it's going to be a more formal all ongoing thing council should weigh in on participating in those meetings, but I was looking for your feedback on empowering. I think Counselor Beck was willing to continue to meet with folks, and then we would identify someone on city staff to go as well. It likely would not be me, just because I don't think I have the qualifications or expertise to be engaging with folks about, you know, in-depth public health issues. We have staff who are that is their, you know, area of expertise, but I do think it's important just [1:06:18] Susan Faloon: a quick comment that might be kind of intimidating to have like the whole council show up, so yeah, probably just having wondering about public meetings. Yeah, so I'm just thinking that could be very overwhelming for those folks, and then just one other quick comment is like I know this is not the only encampment in Bangor, so have we considered, you know, if we have a sanctioned encampment, like are we going to have folks from those other areas, because we probably need to like, you know, size it to accommodate more than just the folks at the railroad encampments. I [1:06:59] Michael Beck: just want to share it. So, you know, as I've come to learn more about the idea of a sanctioned encampment, you know, the thing that drew me to it is the idea of a safe outdoor space model or the village model, I've also heard it called, where the idea is very temporary. You know, this is just a chance to give people a place to stabilize while we figure out a way to get more housing stock, because we're just woefully short. Short. And I don't want to set it for a date, but I want to set it for a goal, because we have a lot of work ahead of us to do with the long term strategy. And, you know, as we work on that, you know, there are just folks that this works better for. And to me, it's more than just here's a place to go to make you happier, that works for you. But it's also the outcomes that come from this when it's done well, when it has, you know, the infrastructure invested in it, you know, where, you know, in some areas you're seeing better access to housing than congregate shelters, you know, there's a success story to be had here. So this is more than just what do we do for these folks today. There's a success story to be written here with savings to the to the city, for better outcomes for the people, for just basic decency. You know, so that's what I Hope comes of this is that we do this, and maybe even do what other sites have done where they've actually expanded and, you know, there's been local businesses will say, hey, well, give up part of our parking lot for this or, you know, it's worked. It's going to take a whole community to step in and say, you know what, let's really get our arms around this problem. If this is one of our arrows on our quiver, let's take it and, you know, let's turn the tide on this. So hopefully we can explore this model more and make this work, and that includes good neighbor agreements because I know there's concerns with neighbors, neighborhoods about, you know, if you put this here, you know, statistics they're shown though you get the folks who are going to be living there involved and give them autonomy to help set the rules so they get buy-in, you know, and the rules they come up with are almost identical to what we would probably get because it came from them. There's more buy-in, you know, so I just hope that we can really look at this model and study it and make sure that we're doing it this way, not just here's a spot, we'll look the other way and, oh by the way, here's bathrooms and power and water for you. [1:09:28] Carolyn Fish: I agree that, you know, the long-term solution would be to find something and again my mindset is it's not a permanent but transitional housing and with rules and regulations and thoughtfulness for safety and where we place it in the community. And I think a more immediate idea you mentioned that there's the immediate thing we need right now is day shelters, day places, and it sounds like there are some things coming up on that. So if we can coordinate where we could have a space for our campers as they transition, that would be helpful for us to know, to have an immediate place for them to go, and we should continue. I know we've had a lot of emails, a lot of ideas and model ideas. I've reached out to other communities and other towns with similar little populations that seem to have some homeless ideas as well as transitional housing, so maybe somehow we start coordinating that, and even if we have to have another special workshop day once or twice a month, I think we really need to be aggressive about trying to come up with a [1:10:46] Susan Deane: a long-term solution that's true. We are now [1:10:56] Daniel Carson: the chair's presented to one MRSA section 40568 and one MRSA section 4056c. I'd like to make a [1:11:04] Susan Deane: Motion that we go into in seconds second okay and move in front of it I believe we have to and I mean I have to say my regard for the second session but correct did you report [1:11:19] Daniel Carson: Now one MRSA section 405.68 just now and one MRSA section 505.68 disposition of real property [1:11:33] Susan Deane: Yes,, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And that will be in this we are an executive.