Hampden council weighs three options for failing Manning Mill Road bridge

[0:17] Matthew LaChance: Good evening. I'd like to call to order the council workshop for September 28th, 2026. We do not have a, I'm guessing we don't have us playing. Okay, thank you. We have no unfinished business. We'll jump right into new business. Report to the council on the condition of the Manning Mill Road and options for remedies by Ben Toothaker, senior bridge engineer, project bridge project manager. She's, is he here? Take away when you're ready. [1:22] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options:... here to discuss the name of the bridge... as you are... options here along with... Sawyer Road bridge we have addressed with you guys. We've addressed a few [Ross (public commenter: of the, yeah.] It is on, sorry. Yep, sorry about that. I'll try and project so we've, we have been working with the town. Yeah, I think it's just directional, sorry. We have been working with the town since 2021 on this particular location. Initially when we assessed the bridge at that time, we were looking at a deck replacement. In general, the deck replacement is fewer impacts. We should be able to do things with less time. One of the issues we've faced here over the past few years as the conditions have continued to decline is the main thing that's been affected is the steel girders down below. Main DOT conducts inspections on every bridge within the state every two years. In this past August, they were out to do the routine inspection again on this bridge and found there was significantly more degradation on the beams than what we were expecting, which has unfortunately ruled out the previous alternatives that we've been investigating, which has kind of put us in a unusual spot, right? We are now looking at options to try and improve capacity in the short term so that the bridge can have more suitable load carrying capacity through the winter months, but that still leaves us with a long term. Sorry. Yep, so we have a more suitable load carrying capacity through the winter months. As I mentioned, we've lost a fair amount of steel on the webs. The girders, especially near the south abutment, have perforations through the webs. At this point there's 2 foot by 6 inch area of 100% section loss. So with that in mind, we're really left with a couple of realistic options. The three that we've investigated at this time to serve as long-term solutions at this site involve replacing the superstructure or connecting the north side of Manning Mill Road with a connector road to Emerson Mill Road, downstream of the structure. The two bridge superstructure alternatives that we've been investigating are either to work with an Acro Bridge solution, which for those who are unfamiliar, Acro Bridge used to be maybe bridges effectively they are a prefabricated bridge solution that would be delivered to site and assembled on site using light equipment. Another alternative that we are that we've been investigating is steel replacing the existing steel girders and bridge deck with new steel girders and a open-grid steel deck. And the third option that we've been looking at is connecting the connecting many mill with Anderson network to the east as we mentioned I believe the council has been has seen or shared some costs that we've worked through. These are our budget level highest high-level estimate costs at this stage with the limited information we have. We're investigating kind of a balance of impacts to the residents who are located north of the structure as well as cost and ease of construction. Looking at the two bridge repair options. We have the Acro solution and we have the steel girder with open grid deck solution. Each have their own advantages and disadvantages. The Acro solution ultimately would provide a new superstructure that is, for those who haven't seen it, looks like a truss, looks like a steel truss. One of the challenges with that solution is we cannot use the existing substructures for that. So in order to work with an ACRO solution we would need to install new stub abutments behind the existing. The existing abutments would need to retain or would need to stay where they are to continue retaining the earthen slopes for the roadway that approaches. approaches, the pier would remain in the stream but would become effectively just abandoned concrete, an abandoned pier. We estimate that the cost on that one is around about $1.5 million, which is just the construction cost. With this, there are a few things to keep in mind that aren't necessarily captured in this cost. This is a pretty tight site and we would need a crane to fit in there. In order to make that work you're probably looking at the crane because of the low posting on the bridge. Bridge, all of your equipment and access needs to happen from the south, which can cause some additional complications to the construction for the two bridge repair options. With that in mind, generally speaking, all the deliveries and equipment are going to need to be located just south of the existing structure while construction is ongoing. Going where the structure serves as the sole access point for the residences north of the crossing, for both of the structure repair alternatives, there will be a period where access is cut off to the north side of the structure. Both of these repair options have that in common. The main difference between the two is the duration. We anticipate that the acro solution can be accomplished in less time, but not by a huge margin. It would likely entail going out for a short duration closure, potentially allowing pedestrian access only for approximately a four-day weekend or similar, with work extending into the night so that the contractor could drill short pipe piles and place precast abutments on pipe piles that would remain in place while traffic is opened back up to the residence and the existing abutments are plated, or the proposed. Those precast abutments get plated over to allow for the final cure for the concrete cavities that would need to be filled with the pipe piles. Once the abutments have fully set, the contractor would need to come back in and there would be another closure for probably seven days this time with no access. And that would be the period where the existing superstructure would need to be removed and modified to allow for the new acrostructure to go in. The acrostructure would need to be constructed on the north side of the bridge while demolition is ongoing. Going and this construction would likely happen in the existing right away in the on the road to the north. Unfortunately, because of the roadway alignment to the south of the existing crossing, it isn't really feasible to pre assemble the acro bridge on the south side of the structure. The grade is too steep and there is a approximately 15 degree curve right as you get onto the structure, both of which are fighting the ability to do a launch from the south side. The other alternate that we looked at for bridge rehab is to replace the existing steel beams with new hot-dip galvanized steel beams and an open-grid steel deck. This would require approximately two-week closure while the existing superstructure is demolished and the new superstructure is assembled. Both of these options would likely have additional periods of impact, though not to the level of closure with no access, just to tie in the structure to the existing roadway, make some of the final adjustments to the approach slabs or the proposed abutments, that sort of thing, final paving, final guardrail, that's closing out the closing out the project and connecting it to the existing roadway. We estimated for the steel grid, for the steel grid deck, it's approximately one $1.4 million for construction costs. Again, similar to the ACRO solution, there is a strong possibility for utility relocation or utility shutoff while the new bridge is being constructed, at least for the portion from the existing crossing and north. Both of these options would also require the contractor to have access to a lay down area off site, probably on town facilities somewhere. I think that's something we've kind of discussed in the past, but the site is too tight to fit all the materials within the closure area that would be available. The third option to allow for access on the north side of the structure that we've looked at is connecting Emerson Mill Road to Manning Mill Road with approximately 4,700 feet of new gravel roadway. Our estimate for that is about 1.3 million. With that structure or with that option, there would be no need to cut off access for the duration of construction. At most, you would have minor impacts for the residents with flagger controlled access when the connection is being made. You would still need to work in from Emerson Mill to make the connection because, again, the posting on the existing bridge is low enough that the equipment necessary for construction would not be able to cross. With this option We're probably looking at about two weeks to complete all the clearing necessary, and then we're probably looking at 14 to 16 weeks worth of construction. A couple things to keep in mind, because the new road does not impact access to the residents, the construction could begin likely sooner. Actually, we do anticipate the construction could begin sooner. One of the headaches for both of the bridge rehab options is we are in a bit of a crunch with steel rolled shapes. I spoke with the fabric, local fabricators, rolled shape delivery is, or lead times is, four to six months and growing. Unfortunately, the data center build outs throughout the country have been eating up a lot of the rolled shape supply. Fabricated girders of similar proportions could be made on a reduced timeline compared to the rolled shape orders, but we're still looking at it probably similar lead time. Assuming that this is awarded this winter, that would put the both of the steel options for the existing bridge probably not beginning construction until mid-July. With the roadway option, you would probably be trying to make your clearing happen this winter. If it's possible to do it before April, it's usually better for permitting. There are a handful of species that are prefer winter clearing, and it can expedite the process if you're, if you're able to complete clearing before April. Usually after that, work could begin in earnest. That's largely what we've, what we're looking at here with the two options, or with the two replaced or repair options and one rehab option. With that, look to open it up public [16:20] Matthew LaChance: comment first, or, okay, anybody from public that would like to comment on this? Yep, go up to, go up to the podium please. Thank you. We're [16:50] Fire/EMS chief or emergency services official: on hideous Summer Street on the steel girder open steel [16:54] Speaker E (unidentified): deck option. Are you going to be able to reuse the existing abutments in that? Are you going to have [17:01] Speaker F (unidentified): to do a pile of buckets as well? I heard at one of the workshops that there was further doubt about [17:07] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: the reusability of those apartments. Yep, we anticipate that with the steel girder and open grid deck, the existing substructures could be reused. The part of the reason we feel that is achievable here is the steel open steel girder with grid deck is a similar weight to the existing bridge. Where we run into headaches is well with the acro, there's a couple, a couple things going on. For one, the acro bridge is heavier than what we've got existing. Additionally, the geometry for these prefabricated bridges does not work with the existing abutments. Additionally, the pier becomes an issue with the Acro bridges. That being said, these are old abutments. We don't have a lot of information. They would need to be monitored. The existing, the information that we have leads us to believe that these existing bridge abutments and potentially the pier are fieldstone abutments that were probably constructed before 1930 that have since been faced with concrete. From a structural analysis standpoint, there isn't a lot of analysis that can be done on fieldstone foundations. So we have short up the structure from scour that was part of the work that was done a few years ago. So we don't have a concern that they're going to scour out. We would want to continue monitoring them for cracking and signs of distress. We have taken approaches with these with the design that we're suggesting to mitigate these potential issues through like an approach slab and trying to balance the weight to make sure we're not over stressing the existing. But it is certainly something that should be monitored going forward. You're probably going to have to put for occasionally do concrete repairs to those abutments throughout their life. Thank [19:35] Matthew LaChance: you. Anybody else? Yeah, my name [19:49] Tom Rhodes (public commenter, 315 Emerson Mill Road): is Tom Rhodes, 315 Emerson Mill Road, and recovering from a cold, so I'll do my best. In the discussion that you had about Emerson Mill Road, you said something about a bridge is still a problem with that. Are you talking about one, just which bridge were you talking about? Oh, sorry, the one just over the stream by the YMCA [20:21] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: or sorry, the Manning mill bridge would prevent any construction [20:26] Tom Rhodes (public commenter, 315 Emerson Mill Road): from happening. All right, I got confused because I thought it was you're talking about another great. Sorry, okay, thank you. Thank you. Who knows he's [20:44] Matthew LaChance: watching. Yes, please, Linda. [20:51] Val (public commenter, Hampden): Val port Hamden. What would be the weight capacity for either one of these bridges if repaired? Will it be more than [21:00] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: it is right now? Yes. Okay, so the yeah, so the acro bridges are they are designed to hs20 loading, which is effectively what main dot uses for design. It's a little shy. Main dot designs to a slightly higher standard that wouldn't necessarily wouldn't be necessary for this approach. I have priced out the cost for the hire as well. It's about an extra 75 000 if we were to go to the main modified hl93 loading. Effectively either of these would remove the posting that's currently on it's applied to the current bridge. It would bring it back to unrestricted weight. Yep, Ann. [22:10] Ross (public commenter, 141 Manning Mill Road): Ross 141 Mandy Mill Road, how many tons is that? When you say unrestricted back to its original weight, it was 30 tons. Are we talking prior to that? [22:20] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: Yeah, it would be if the bridge was restricted, you're you're talking the current posting. No, I'm [22:27] Ross (public commenter, 141 Manning Mill Road): talking about the prior one to six ton, it was 30. Right, it would be, it was 15 tons, I'm sorry, [22:32] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: 30,000 pounds, I'm sorry, 15 times. So the unrestricted weight is actually it's based on a 72,000 pound truck, so it would be a significant increase to the [22:51] Ross (public commenter, 141 Manning Mill Road): existing. So I just wanted to say that I thank you for your information, it's a lot to take in. Yeah, so at this point I have a lot of questions but none that a coherent at the moment, you know, just to give you my business card. Okay, that'd be great, thank you. [23:10] Matthew LaChance: Thank you, yep, a [23:20] Val (public commenter, Hampden): copy of the report from two years ago, I've asked the D.O.T. for everything back to [23:25] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: 2000 but I haven't received it yet. I don't believe I have it with me but I can, I believe I have a copy at my office and it would be saved on our server. I would have to check with the main DOT before I can go to the Senate. [23:40] Val (public commenter, Hampden): Okay, the main DOT said that I have the right under that freedom of whatever act, but they said that they're really bogged down, so it's probably gonna take them two or three weeks and we need it sooner. [23:50] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: Okay, I'll, yeah, I can reach out to Ron Taylor. [23:53] Val (public commenter, Hampden): Okay, and I can give you my email address before we leave, thank you. [24:08] Matthew LaChance: Council discussion, please. Go for your free, yeah. [24:14] Speaker I (unidentified): Ben, for the ACRO bridge, you know besides all the logistic problems with steel and so forth you were talking about the difficulty of actually doing the construction on the south side of the current bridge, does that make that unfeasible to do [24:36] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: that it makes it very challenging and it will certainly influence what you get for bids. Jobs like this have a lot of risk with them and risk can be hard to estimate. What can complicate the risk and complicate the cost, the cost calculus that goes with it is when contractors are held to a tight timeline they will bid that risk as well. We've tried to incorporate that into our bids, we've found in the past that certain jobs like this can come with a cost risk. You are for both of the bridge repair alternates you are probably looking at, it's a small enough job that you will are likely to draw in not necessarily the largest contractors in the state but some of the next con, I'd say next size down, it's pretty specialty work. I wouldn't be surprised if you only get one bit, that not to say that it's impossible, I'm just we just facing Some headaches that we've experienced in the past with this particular structure. I believe we advertised for less challenging work a few years ago and got no bids back. It's in the grand scheme of projects that are available within the state at any given time. It's a smaller job with a lot of risk, and that is hard for the contractors to estimate in a way that we can also estimate as engineers. Thank you thank [26:47] Speaker J (unidentified): you for your presentation. Let me talk a little bit about the risk issue number one, and then number two, what seems to me to be the historical precedence that has been set relative to our ability to land contractors. And you said that in the worst case scenario we might be lucky to get one bid and zero bids as possible. The point being is that because of the risk and because of this nature of this project, if we, if we don't get any bids, then we're simply a July 27 just gets simply kicked down the road, correct, with no solution at all. Yeah, are there any risks in your preliminary work with the road solution, the connector [27:36] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: The biggest unknown at this point would be wetland impacts. I do believe it's likely that you're going to find wetlands. I've looked through what Maine DOT has publicly available through their public map viewer. There's a couple of areas that seem likely to trigger that. I am unfamiliar with the costs associated with that. But I know there are routes or avenues where some of the wetland costs can be mitigated with a fee. I would have to consult with some of the others. Okay, well, let's then concentrate on what the [28:17] Speaker J (unidentified): possibility might be on companies that would be willing to do that work. It sounds like it's still a medium type project, but it doesn't have the risks associated with the bridge. So my thought would be that with minimal risks, the chance of the bids getting jacked up becomes somewhat less. But more importantly, I would think there would be more companies that would be willing to bid on a job like that because of the minimum risks. [28:47] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: Yes, certainly. There are a lot of dirt contractors. They're very familiar with dirt work. You don't need much for specialty access equipment skills for road construction compared to the bridge work that we would be requesting. The bridge pricing, like I said, we have tried to capture that risk. We have found that especially if the contractors are not very hungry, the prices come back steeper. And one of the issues we've been finding, at least in the last six months or so, is contractors are bidding against a moving target, so to speak. Price of diesel today is what, two, three times what it was in January, and that impacts everything from shipping costs to asphalt costs to equipment operation costs. I spoke with Steel Foot, one of the steel fabricators, this morning about the rolled shapes. He said he's got rolled shapes that are being delivered in December that he ordered in August, and shapes that he's ordering now are mid late spring. There's a lot of moving parts with the bridge that you don't necessarily have with the road. You have a lot more options for gravel, and you'll likely get a lot more options for competitive bids just by the nature of the work, because it doesn't require specialty work. When you're looking at the, like, the roadway work, you could get a T-Buck, you could get any number of contractors here local to the greater Bangor area. If you're looking at the bridge work, I'd be surprised if you've got more than two to three, but it's not impossible to get zero. I don't think that this one is quite large enough that it would draw in some of the big players like read and read or chin bro you'd probably be looking at t-buck cpm wyman simpson all of which are capable of doing this work as i mentioned before with the time restriction comes extra risk and one of the headaches you might find is if the construction is linked to a certain time completion, with a penalty for exceeding. Sometimes contractors will bid to do it at a comfortable pace and pay the penalty, which can cause unintended headaches. That has happened on big main DOT jobs. If the disincentive is not aggressive enough, and sometimes even if the disincentive is pretty aggressive, if it, if the appetite for risk isn't there, you might still find that you're paying yourself to pay the fee. Even one last question then, [31:53] Speaker J (unidentified): relative to the connector, is the gravel road infrastructure sufficient that the council and town long term can actually think about paving over the top of that and not having to go back and re-engineer everything to essentially [32:09] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: Put a paved road in, yes, and that's what we've provided for an at what I've provided here for the gravel road estimate is assuming this work was done to main duty standards. This is a 26 foot wide roadway structure ditch to ditch, you know ditch shoulder to ditch shoulder gravel top with you know main DOT's spec for sub-base, that's the aggregate type C, I think is what we said. Yeah, aggregate base course type C, which is the same gravel that Main DOT uses to construct their roads. This assumes open swales, and I think we even included three 18-inch cross pipes in our estimate. [32:57] Speaker J (unidentified): So essentially, long term, planning out a little farther than it would be possible to essentially come in and pave over the top of that because it is built to DOD standards with minimal, if any, infrastructure alterations required. [33:17] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: Yes. Okay, thank you. Yeah, it's, to that point, we're having this discussion today partially because there's a lack of access to the north. Right. Either of the bridge options, you have that same problem in the future. Construction costs don't usually go down. You can get minor spikes here and there that might mean maybe 27 is weirdly less than 26. It's not common. Things like price of diesel can influence that. that. Price of oil can influence that, at least in the short term. But over time, construction costs are going to generally increase. Thank you. One [34:09] Councilor (acknowledging audience, asking John): or two questions for you and one I'd like to ask John in a minute. But before I do, I want to acknowledge to the audience, people potentially affected or would be affected one way or the other that we're gonna try to remain as sensitive to that as we can be. I don't know if that's always communicated, but the six of us and town staff are trying to factor information coming in like it is for you and trying to make sure that we do this right. You mentioned two things I wanted it to come back to, one has to do with steel and international markets is the way I would phrase it and I guess I'd ask the question this way isn't it possible that length of time to secure a product and its cost could even be worse than what you're presenting tonight the I [35:13] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: would say with rolled shapes certainly based on the conversations that i've had with fabricators there has been a very strong interest in strong and unusual interest in roll shapes they've linked it to data center build out build outs how much of that is them telling me something and how much of it's not i can't really say as far as steel on infrastructure projects go generally speaking the infrastructure has had by america requirements to attach to steel for quite some time so generally speaking our supplier lines there aren't significantly changing unless you are going outside of the typical routes [36:03] Councilor (acknowledging audience, asking John): another question i had and i think this pertains more to what i'm going to call the prefab bridge because i don't understand the terms yep and staging it or positioning it ready for installation is the way my brain is trying to process this and you were talking about the curve and the incline yes making it at least challenging if not impossible to do that from the south side yes so if that's true how do you get that platform in [36:37] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: position to work with yes our when we looked at the acro bridge option the only way that is feasible is if it's done in two parts kind of like I was kind of as I mentioned part one is building the substructures and leaving them in place buried while to allow traffic back through while we wait for the concrete in the cavities over the piles to cure typical curing time 14 days to 28 days depending on what you're getting for a mix once that has been cured to strength you could begin the construction for the acro bridge these prefabricated bridges will get delivered in components and they can be built on site for this particular instance all of that material would have to be craned across to the north side of the structure where it would have to be assembled in the roadway after closure has started so it would require some clearing and I would I can say to install the substructures necessary to do this work you're looking at specialty contractors and those prices are harder to predict because there is less you They are used much less frequently here in Maine. One of those items is the spun pipe piles. You're probably looking at a contractor from Massachusetts to get that work. There's a high moat cost there if you can attract someone to do the work, which I can't necessarily confirm. They do work here in Maine for Maine DOT. t usually it's a lot bigger higher quantity yeah it's easier to draw them in and [38:41] Councilor (acknowledging audience, asking John): John, if we ultimately go with the road, is there anything that you've thought of since previous conversations we should take into account about plowing or turnarounds or no? There's a chance for us to [38:58] John (Public Works/Road Commissioner): provide all the pipe needed for that project. We have quite a stockpile as it is now. We have pretty favorable pricing on that. We would still need to have a turnaround on both sides so that you still need to have acquisition of land there in some sort of fashion, but other than that, long term solution, right? Like he mentioned, we don't paint a bridge, we don't fix abutments, we don't wash a bridge every year, you know, so it's really you're just plowing a road for maintenance and paving every 10. And just one thing I think should be discussed, we can build a road with little to no engineering and we have no idea what the engineering costs are associated with either of these bridge options and that really should be played into the total cost of this project. [39:42] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: Thank you. Yeah, to John's point, these are construction costs only. [39:49] Speaker I (unidentified): Looking at the road option, you said it only take a couple weeks to clear the area but then 14 to 16 weeks to actually build the road, so during that time are the residents going to be able to have the to use the cleared road like a normal logging road? How would that how would that work? The [40:19] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: intent would be that access is maintained through the existing arrangement, essentially continue using Manning Mill. Okay. We have been working with John and with Paula to get short-term repairs to increase the capacity on the bridge adequately enough to ensure fuel deliveries to the winter. Beyond that, these repairs are intended to be short-term, low cost to the town, knowing that there is significant work coming to the structure one way or another. That would that would allow for construction without necessarily impacting the residents [41:04] Speaker I (unidentified): Okay, yeah, I guess one other question too, you said that the work may not begin until next spring. Why can't you do any type of construction during the late fall or winter? [41:17] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: Months for the for the road the there is potentially I guess you could potentially start earlier. We do get frost. There's not usually a lot of road construction that is happening once you once the ground freezes up. From a permitting perspective, you may have an easier time getting a permit for clearing and for wetland if you can start the clearing in the winter. Not to say that you can't get it outside of that, it just might require additional investigation by environmental crews. Generally speaking, the January to April block for clearing, that's the programmatic window that Mandiot would use in areas where there are environmentally sensitive species. So generally speaking, if you can plan clearing to occur in that window, it'll be an easier permanent process thank [42:19] Matthew LaChance: You did you have some clarify [42:26] John (Public Works/Road Commissioner): The contractor we discussed that was going to help us with this project never wrote in there in four to five weeks for the winter months, which would be more or less a more narrow road, and we would go back in the summer months and make it the full 26 foot route. So where's case scenario once we got a green light, if we went that route, we'd have a road in five weeks. Sorry, that's fine. [42:50] Speaker F (unidentified): We have two estimates for two bridges here. They're pretty close financially. Just reading this and I have engineering training, but it's not civil engineering. Why would we pick one over the other? What are the you've got two solutions, why would you pick one solution over the other solution? [43:13] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: What would she what should we be looking at? Yeah, when it's look looking at these two, I would err toward the one that has less risk at this stage. I would feel that there's less risk with the open girder or with the steel girder open grid because I believe more of that work can be accomplished from the south side of the structure. The acro solution does require getting some equipment across the structure, and with the multiple closures, I think you're opening yourself up to a another opportunity for schedule risk where you have folks that have been displaced that end up getting displaced for longer than planned. I do think that the schedule 14 days to demo and replace is tight but doable. I still think your risk is less with the open steel girder. How for lack of a better phrase how [44:21] Speaker F (unidentified): Incomplete are these estimates? I mean, in and of themselves, I'm sure they're complete for the bridges themselves, but you mentioned in the conversation earlier, for instance, the engineering costs. Is one of these much more difficult to engineer than the other? And are there also other costs, like approach to the bridge, or preparation to get to the bridge, or match the road to the bridge? What other costs are we looking at? And what kind of ballpark are we looking at? How many, how many 5K or 6K things are we looking at? [44:56] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: Right. I'd say the construction costs, we've looked at the major items that we anticipate. I believe we could structure language for the contracts that encapsulate some of the smaller items that would normally be paid independently in main DOT jobs. As far as engineering costs, these are pretty simple bridges. The large cost I would anticipate for either would be in plant generation. From the perspective of the structural design, I took a quick stab at it when doing these estimates to make sure that we were in the right ballpark. For the Acro solution, I've been in contact with Acro directly. They manage the engineering cost for their structure as part of their cost. That being said, with the unique staging that is required, there would still be a decent cost to get the plans set up in a way that this job could be bid by the contractors that are likely to bid on it, even though the Acro bridge itself is engineered off the cuff. For, I would say the engineering costs are probably in the two to three hundred range based on what I've seen recent, but I would have to, that's very much off the cuff ballpark for a simple bare-bones set of plans and engineering calcs. Associated [46:42] Speaker F (unidentified): with it. So to take everything into account, you know, we have a bridge here that's estimated at 1.5 million for the Acro bridge. Is it, you know, a lot of times engineers love to talk about factors. Is it, is it going to be 2x to actually produce this bridge on the ground that you can drive a car, truck? Is it going to be $3 million, or is it going to be 3x, like $4.5 million? What multiple are we looking at for a finished job? [47:15] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: Yeah, I would estimate for the plans and calcs, you're probably in the $200 to $300 range. You would also want, I believe you'd also want on-site construction supervision for this level of complexity,, which is probably another hundred-ish in engineering cost, assuming that these projects are active for about two weeks. You wouldn't necessarily need construction supervision for some of the smaller ancillary items like guard rail, but you would definitely want construction supervision on site for the duration of both closure periods so that you have someone there to answer and hold the contractors to account. So I probably looking at another four to five, I would say, between construction engineering and final engineering, if [48:19] Speaker F (unidentified): this were, have you been out to the site? Yes. If this were up to you, which bridge would you choose and why? What's, what drives you other than the risk you're talking about, the lower risk with the steel girders? But is there anything else that would [48:35] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: drive you towards one or the other? I think that the, I still, I would still lean toward the steel girder open grid. There's little that, there's less that can go wrong, I believe, with that approach. It's at the end of the day you're going to have a, from a, I guess from an aesthetic standpoint, it's gonna look pretty similar to what's there. It won't have a timber deck. You'll still have, you know, you'll have guard rail along on the bridge, but once you go to the acro bridges, they look a lot bigger that you know they have truss panels along the side. It, as i mentioned, we do have to do abutment work. The abutments that are needed are pretty close to the width of the existing roadway causeway on the north side, so you would end up with a concrete stub that is supported on short piles just past the bridge. I think Acro makes great products. I don't necessarily think it is going to be as easy here because of the challenges that we're facing with the roadway alignment and the headaches surrounding closures. How [50:08] Speaker F (unidentified): about in the future repairs, does one bridge or the other present significantly different potential repair costs, you know, at five years, 10 years, 20 years to maintain these things? I think you'd be looking at similar [50:23] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: costs. Both of them are largely relying on galvanized steel. The acro panels are exactly that, they're galvanized steel trusses with floor beams that connect between left truss, right truss, and they don't have an open grid. They do have a solid panel with a non-slip epoxy floor. Over time that non-slip epoxy floor does need to be replaced, which is, I guess that's a cost that you'd have with acro that you wouldn't necessarily have with the open steel grid. Either way you're probably not throwing salt on It just, because it's probably better practice for the exposed steel. Not that you can't, but I think you'll get more life out of your structure if you're not. Especially with the open grid, I wouldn't do it anyway. You're just going to dump your salt and string. I would probably lean toward the steel girder and open grid. Go [51:25] Matthew LaChance: ahead, John. Sorry, no, I'm trying to absorb a lot here tonight. [51:30] John (Public Works/Road Commissioner): From the steer steel girder method, how confident are you in reusing those abutments? Because that seems to be very different than the conversation we had that day underneath the bridge. Yeah, there [51:40] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: there are, I do want to stress that this, that those would want to be monitored. It is at the end of the day, this is field stone foundation or field stone with concrete face. [Matthew LaChance: There's] a lot of unknown there. That is a risk that would need to be recognized. I believe that there's the capacity there. We did have a geotech come out and take some probes. Yeah, I believe that you can get the capacity, but it is still at the end of the day an old unknown that presents a risk long-term. How [52:39] Speaker F (unidentified): do you, how did they measure? You said they took some tests, they did some capacity. If you've got stones and cement or we aggregate between them, what were you drilling into? How are you [52:51] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: testing it? So that we had the geotech on site to try and investigate the limits of the stone. We don't have capacity for the stone. We know how far back the stone extends. You don't have a cantilevered footing, so it is reliant on it being independently stable, which is part of why when you're looking at superstructure want to make sure you're not changing the weight significantly. It would probably be beneficial to get a bit more information behind. The long-term fix, if you wanted to ensure stability, may involve soil nailing, which is not something that's been investigated to date. [53:48] Speaker F (unidentified): Say again, what would that be? Soil nailing. [53:53] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: Effectively, dewey dag anchors or steel rebar that is drilled through the face of the concrete and pinned at some distance behind the abutment to increase your failure plane, essentially mobilizing the earth behind in a way that you would normally do with a spread footing behind a traditional abutment. [54:15] John (Public Works/Road Commissioner): So can I clarify that if we did the steel girder design without further exploration or anything, you would probably exclude that portion in your design for liability, right? I mean, you would exclude any liability for the current abutments that are in place. Yes, it would be a, we haven't [54:35] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: changed existing conditions and have no reason to believe that it is causing a new problem, but from a liability perspective, it would be prudent to investigate further. thank [54:52] Matthew LaChance: you. yeah, should we [54:58] Councilor (acknowledging audience, asking John): end up deciding to go with the road? yep. and i'm not sure who to direct this question to. what do we do with the old bridge and it stay a footbridge? is it, you know, is there liability? would we have maintenance costs even though not full traffic is using it? how does that play out? yeah, so from a from a capacity standpoint point. [55:26] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: It is stable under its own loads, and with the short-term fixes it would be even more so. This I would anticipate would become a foot traffic only with a probably use at your own risk disclaimer. It would still be a span that's over 20 feet, and it would still be listed in Maine DOT's inventory, and Maine DOT would continue to inspect this bridge on a two-year cycle, as they do with all structures that are over 20 feet in the state. I had a structure pretty early in my career that was an unused structure that was the old alignment for U.S. Route 1 out in Whiting. It hadn't been used in easily decades because there were three-inch trees growing out of the deck. And DOT was still inspecting it. [56:30] Matthew LaChance: i guess we're all set. thank you for your time, very informative. that's why we, that's why i asked, we want to public comment first. [56:44] Speaker E (unidentified): currently i've heard three options, two bridges and a access road. yes, what would be the risk of having a temporary access road so that you could have access to build the bridge from both directions, north and south? you could not have to crane anything over, and you could then have access to bringing in equipment. and based on what I'm hearing, it's going to be a couple months that we're not going to get propane. we are working with the town, I know you're working with the town for that, but it would be still, you know, it would still be those issues, and you know, firefighting, ambulance, all that stuff would still be in place. so if a temporary road could be, you know, set up, you could then build from both sides, and your average wouldn't have to be, i guess, you know, would that be, it would that be an option? i know, yes, you're going to be paying for a road and a bridge, but it would reduce, would it not reduce the risk of, and also maybe increase the number of bids you might get. i guess i, to what i guess [57:54] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: what is the intent with the road? Are you talking a road adjacent to the [58:00] Speaker E (unidentified): Existing structure? No, it'd be the access road that is planned from Emerson to Manning Mill. It would be a temporary road just so that construction could commence from both sides of the bridge. You know, to make it, like you say, from one side it gives you more headaches. If you could do it from both sides, would that reduce the headaches and the risk and maybe [58:26] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: increase who might bid for it i mean yes you as you pointed out you're effectively paying for both solutions correct and so that i guess would become a financial decision with the town right [58:40] Speaker E (unidentified): At that stage you wouldn't have to pave the road, which would be then again another, that it sounds like you're going to be paid, paying the road, you know, building the dirt road, then paving it, and in theory being doing twice again, since it probably wouldn't be as costly as the bridge and a road and a dirt road option. Yeah, again, it's up to the town for that particular question. But in my question to you was [59:08] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: does it reduce it if you have a road access from the other side? It does simplify construction because you have more access. It doesn't change the risk [59:19] Speaker E (unidentified): of your substructures, correct. But I was thinking more of the risk of having to beam something over and it drops on somebody's head. That won't, I mean, craned over the, that was the risk I'm thinking, the crane, the risks [59:33] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: associated with the bridge construction are more related to extended current construction duration, which lengthens the outage time. Okay, so you're talking [59:44] Speaker E (unidentified): You're talking about a construction risk of a snowstorm, tree, what we're having today, rain, and it can't do any work. [59:51] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: Something that ends up causing a delay and increases the impacts. [59:55] Speaker E (unidentified): I was thinking more of a risk to having to crane that over. Somebody falls in the river, falls on somebody. I thought that was more of what the risk was. [1:00:05] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: It's more of a timeline and construction cost risk is the bigger issue there. [1:00:12] Speaker E (unidentified): Okay. Thank you. Yeah. [1:00:15] Matthew LaChance: Go ahead, start [1:00:27] Val (public commenter, Hampden): this fall, this winter, and then it would be a temporary road, and then either next summer, if it wasn't too wet, or the summer after that, it would be paved to the town standards. [1:00:38] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: It doesn't sound like that's what you're saying. I'm talking about gravel. I would, I need to chat with John about that. I had assumed a different, a different timeline to start. It wouldn't impact the costs necessarily. But your cost is not including tar? No, it's just gravel. [1:00:57] Val (public commenter, Hampden): And we were told tar, so do we know how much more it's going to be to tar it? [1:01:01] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: It is going to, the cost for pavement right now is historically high. Largely driven by the changes in cost of fuel and diesel. Currently Maine DOT is paying on the order of four hundred dollars a ton how much it would cost to pave it can largely depend on when that's done the paving plants around this area will shut down mid-november and won't pick back up again until mid-may based on the work that they do with main d.o.t because main d.o.t has specific requirements around what the ambient temperature can be when paving can happen we're guessing at a moving target i guess is what i would say as far as [1:01:54] Val (public commenter, Hampden): what I don't know about how many tons isn't another million to pay better. It's I don't [1:02:00] Engineer/consultant presenting bridge options: believe it would be another million. It would largely depend on what sort of surface you're looking at. Different roads get different surface types. I would have to discuss with the town what they're looking to do there before I give you a more accurate price. And you said you have the engineer drawing where the wetlands are? I don't have an engineer drawing. I have the Maine DOT's public map viewer. We would also like a copy of that too. Oh, it's, it's actually just, it's public info if you just, if you look for Maine DOT has a public map viewer which has this information. It doesn't have the boundaries for the full boundaries. It would be a survey by an environmental firm or by a surveyor, but you can at least see loosely where some of this would fall. Doing [1:03:05] John (Public Works/Road Commissioner): quick math, we need around 3,050 tons of asphalt and at our current contracted costs it'd be about 262,000 to pave the [1:03:15] Matthew LaChance: road. Thank you. Anybody else? It's only seven o'clock. This is important. I appreciate you folks coming here and I appreciate your time too. Thank you. I think everybody does. I can't speak for everybody, but I'm pretty sure that it's been very informative to me. Thank you. Item B, request for town council to review the 217 26 amendments to the shoreline zoning ordinance pursuant to section 8 of said ordinance requested by Jim Kaiser. I don't see him here. I [1:04:06] Councilor (acknowledging audience, asking John): would suggest after reviewing the material and not seeing Mr. Kaiser here that we take no action on this tonight. It struck me as a straight compliance issue in which the code enforcement officer did his job and we're following state guidance, so I'm not sure even what the request would be. That's my [1:04:29] Speaker I (unidentified): my take. I was going to ask Paula, can you elaborate a little bit on what Mr. Kaiser was requesting [1:04:36] Town staff (general assistance ordinance): From my understanding is that he has always planned on at some point in time building houses or selling house lots back in there, and because he states that it was zoned limited residential at one point in time by some board in the past, but now because of the changes to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife maps and the FEMA maps and all of that, it is, it's now called freshwater emergent wetlands, so it's in resource protection, and he is wanting the town to take a look at amending it back to the way it was. Now Miles did go through minutes to board of appeals meetings going back to the 90s, which was when shoreline zoning became a thing, and found no, and these were paper files, found no mention of any type of shoreline zoning variants or changes, couldn't find any reference to shoreland zoning at all. There is also a planning board permit that does allow a road to be built to get to usable property, and this I think would be something that an engineer could do, so Mr. Kaiser might be able to do that for himself and go to the planning board and request that permit or waiver or whatever you would want to call it, but I also think that if you vote to amend or you give the nod to amend it back to limited residential that I instruct Miles to check with the DEP first before we went through all the steps to have a public hearing and do all of the amendments that might not be approved anyways. [1:06:39] Speaker I (unidentified): Right, I [1:06:42] Matthew LaChance: made a mistake, I didn't ask for public comment. We have any public comment on that for [1:06:50] Speaker F (unidentified): the council comment? If the federal government has gotten involved and I read that it's a 10 acre or higher lot size and he's got 22 acres or something, it's, it's not going back if the federal government has decided this is what this is, at least I would be very surprised, so I would be very hesitant to move along on any special requests without getting, you know, approval of the DEP and the state, Mr. [1:07:28] Speaker J (unidentified): Vice Chair, I think I would concur with Councillor Marvel in the absence of the resident being here to at least address the specifics of what he's concerned are and the fact that these amendments were actually approved seven short months ago, and again, it seems that the background for the preparation of those original amendments was well thought out, well researched, and well documented. I'm not so sure I would concur. I don't think council needs, there's any reason for council to move forward on this item. [1:08:02] Matthew LaChance: Agree. Let's move on then. Item C, council consideration for the adoption of the town Hamden. count of hamden resolution of an emergency medical services transport plan i assume that you yeah stated [1:08:28] Fire/EMS chief or emergency services official: In my memo this was part of a blue ribbon commission actually i may not have put that in my memo i'll i'm just going to give you a little bit of background there's been a few blue ribbon commissions that have been doing some work in the state of maine to address the issues with the main EMS system the structure support delivery funding of EMS and some of those recommendations or a few of those recommendations were codified in LD 245 which is the statute that I included in the packet with memo One of those recommendations was that each, the municipal officers of the municipality shall adopt a plan stipulating the method by which transporting emergency medical services will be delivered within the municipality. So codifying one of the recommendations, actually a couple because they're putting together a permanent EMS commission that will be overseeing and evaluating and providing recommendations to state agencies and the legislature on the status of the EMS services in the state of Maine and how they're going to address the underserved, non-served parts of the state, the ambulance deserts, they call them. There's a lot of work that needs to be done to address some of these issues. issues. So part of that is for municipal governments to adopt a plan. And that's why I'm here tonight. In the packet was a draft resolution. There's no funding attached to this in the sense of There is no requirement that municipalities adopt a service, even though it is an essential service. There is no mechanism to force communities to contract or to have a transporting service. service. So what I think is going to happen or what will happen is this information across the state will go into mania mass and to the commission that's been commissioned to look at these services and it will be some data points and they'll be able to see some of these areas in the state that are that are unserved or underserved and make some decisions funding or whatever they're going to be recommending to the legislature so this is part of that process tonight very questions do [1:11:45] Matthew LaChance: Is there any member of the public who wants to comment on this also comment really [1:12:01] Speaker I (unidentified): You know talking about the ambulance deserts and that does ham and then currently help out other local [1:12:08] Fire/EMS chief or emergency services official: communities and provide emergency services. We don't, we don't have a contract with other communities, although we do assist other communities in the area. We have a policy that dictates when we leave the community, under what circumstances we leave the community. I can forward that to you sometime if you're interested. We're not as liberal as we used to be back several years ago. We try to stay in our community more because our call volume is not going down, so we need to be more available for our citizens. But we do, we do help out when our staffing levels allow us to do that. Right, yeah, I read the article [1:12:55] Speaker I (unidentified): in the Bangor Daily News that talked about this. Maybe just kind of question, you know, what communities are in need and, you know, what services can we [1:13:09] Fire/EMS chief or emergency services official: or do we provide? So thank you. 're welcome, and it also gives the citizens an opportunity to see or to know or unders, maybe not understand the full capacity, but to know that there is a transporting service in their community. Thank [1:13:29] Matthew LaChance: you, sir. Mr. [1:13:32] Speaker J (unidentified): Vice Chair, in lieu of the information Chief Bailey has provided and with the background information, I would ask that maybe full consideration of the emergency medical services transport plan be considered for a vote at our next full council meeting. Agreed, thank [1:13:53] Speaker F (unidentified): you. I [1:13:57] Matthew LaChance: am D council discussion of the on the annual adoption of MMA general assistance appendices and we appendices and recovery residents. I do have a doctor's appointment, die doctor's appointment next month, discovery recovery residences maximum, whatever that means. Shall I read it again? It didn't make much sense to me the way I read it. Try it again. Council discussion on the annual adoption of the MMA general assistant appendices and recovery residences maximums. I think that's you, isn't it? That's [1:14:48] Town staff (general assistance ordinance): you, isn't it? So I can give the background information on this. Every October we're required to update our general assistance ordinance. So this is a standard procedure that we have to engage in. These maximums are set by the state of Maine and the language is actually provided to Maine Municipal to distribute to all the towns. And so we typically, we always adopt the recommendations and when they talk about new maximums, it's what is allowed for the applicants, and they might increase the maximum allowances for food or rent or whatever the issue might be. The reason we adopt the state guidelines, the state ordinances, is because we are allowed to give greater than what the state allows. We're not allowed to do less. So if we ever wanted to do our own ordinance, we would have that ability to, but we have always just adopted the state set standards, and this would be our first hearing before the October 5th public hearing, public comment, council. Councilor [1:16:19] Councilor (acknowledging audience, asking John): Jarvie's comments about the previous issue and simply say this should be on the next agenda, the next council meeting, for a vote to adopt, and it is just a regular compliance issue. [1:16:35] Speaker I (unidentified): Have state maximums increased? [1:16:39] Town staff (general assistance ordinance): I believe they did, for they added a new category, which is for the recovery houses, and the rental and food allowances have increased. How [1:17:18] Speaker F (unidentified): many folks is the town helping out at the current time? Is it, is it five, or is it a thousand, or you [1:17:29] Town staff (general assistance ordinance): know where we at? I don't know a lot of that information because it's confidential, so none of that information is shared with me, but we have a very low rate for general assistance in Hampden. [1:17:45] Speaker F (unidentified): And this does show up as a line item in our budget, right? It is. [1:17:49] Town staff (general assistance ordinance): It's an expense line for general assistance, and then we're allowed to, the state will reimburse us up to so much depending on how much we spend out. So that also shows up as a revenue line on the other side of the budget. It, but I don't, I'm not privy to who or how many. You do have the number though, you do have the number, because I've seen, I've seen it in my, I know how much we spent, and I know, yes, just not, yeah, it's not who and how many. As a matter of fact, Amanda is the general assistance administrator for Hamden, and she will be here next Monday night taking minutes, and if you had deeper questions that she can legally answer, she'll be here. I'm [1:18:47] Matthew LaChance: going to say this quickly. Meeting adjourned.