Bangor Historic Preservation Committee reviews park designations, ordinance changes

[1:00] Nathaniel King: Mike's on. Good evening and welcome to the May 14th, 2026 meeting of the Historic Preservation Commission. My name is Nathaniel King. I'm the chair of the commission and the commission members will now introduce themselves starting with him. [1:17] Peter James Sachs: Hello, my name is Peter Sachs. [1:20] Katie Coe: My name is Matthew White-Camp. Hi, I'm Katie Coe. Rebecca Krupke. [1:30] Mike Pullen: Excuse me, Mike Pullen, the architectural consultant for the commission and then from the city we have a new Colette [1:38] Speaker E (unidentified): planning officer Matt [1:42] Nathaniel King: Altiero planning analyst whoops so first I'll give you an explanation of the historic preservation commission first we serve as the Bangor Center Revitalization Area Design Review Committee designated under section 71 of city ordinances which covers renew review issues in the downtown and waterfront areas of Bangor second the Commission has several responsibilities under the historic preservation section of city ordinances so section 148 including issuing certificates of appropriateness for construction of or changes to buildings within the city's designated historic districts depending on location we may need to review a proposal under both design review and historic preservation criteria if all regular members are in attendance or associate members participate in the meeting but do not vote on motions. In the event that any regular members are absent, associate members will vote such that there are a total of five votes for any motion. A historic preservation application must receive four affirmative votes for certificate of appropriateness to be issued and a design review application must receive three affirmative votes for approval. So order of the meeting is going to be fun because I we do not have any applications in front of us but we do have some old business that will need to be taken care of so we will take care of old business which consists of meeting minutes from the April 9th 2026 and April 16th 2026 meetings and adoptions of findings and decision for 198 Broadway 28 West Broadway and 218 Ohio Street then we will move on to new business which is the parks historic designation public workshop and then item four historic preservation ordinance changes workshop followed by a journey for the evening okay so as we prepare to move forward I would entertain motion to approve or otherwise modify the meeting minutes from April 9th 2026 and April 16th 2026. [3:48] Speaker F (unidentified): I'd like to make a motion to accept the meeting minutes from [3:54] Speaker G (unidentified): April 9th and April 16th. Seconded. Okay. And well, you weren't here. You weren't here. [4:04] Nathaniel King: So it'll just be the three of us voting. We can pass the meeting minutes with just three votes, correct? Fantastic. So starting with Katie. Yes, I also vote yes. Meeting minutes are adopted for April 9th, 2026 and April 16th. Mania for so for the adoption of findings, this three votes going to be acceptable for the adoption of findings. Okay, I would entertain a motion for the adoption of findings and a decision for 198 Broadway, 28 West Broadway, and 218 Ohio Street. [4:37] Peter James Sachs: I would motion it to accept the findings for those mentioned certificates of appropriateness. [4:45] Speaker G (unidentified): Seconded. We'll start with you. Right. Yes. [4:51] Nathaniel King: And I also vote yes. We will adopt the findings and the decisions for 198 Broadway, 28 West Broadway, and 218 Ohio Street. That concludes our old business. So I believe we are now going to the parks historic designation public workshop. So this agenda item is to provide time for the public to ask any questions about the proposed Opposed local historic designation of Broadway Park, Chapman Park, I'm from away, don't get me, Chapman Park, and Davenport Park. The formal public hearing for this item will be at the commission's June 11th meeting. So, mark your calendars. Okay. [5:32] Speaker E (unidentified): Just to introduce the item and talk about the background a little bit, Mike will give more of a presentation on the background. ground. But essentially, this was recommended in a recent architectural survey that we did of the tree streets area, but also the Broadway historic district. And well, actually, I'm sorry, we did a phase four survey that looks at all the parks, and really determined that these three parks were integral to the development of their surrounding neighborhoods and recommended them for local historic designation. Just to address the main question I've been getting, and that I imagine most people have, is this doesn't add restrictions to properties around the parks. It really just affects any major federally funded projects primarily that might be low that might be located adjacent to the park, like major road projects, those often get federal funding, or anything significant that might happen inside the park. But again, Mike can probably talk to that a little more, but I just wanted to mention that and this purpose of this workshop is just to answer any questions that people might have. So I'm going to hand it over. [6:40] Mike Pullen: To Mike to just give a little short presentation on this. Thank you, Anya. Yeah, Bangor's parks, the development of Bangor actually is a fascinating story. We'll touch a little bit upon it and what the importance that these parks played in the planning, the city planning for the very early layout of our city. Most of this, these parks we're going to talk about tonight were in place by 1830. Bangor saw an enormous surge of growth in the 1830s, and that's some very talented families and architects and designers from Boston that influenced how Bangor got laid out. So if I could direct you, can you all see that? I apologize, do we need to tone the lights down or is that okay? Could we do that? Does anyone know Matthew? Thank you. So this is a brief presentation, but what you're looking at there is a graphic of Bangor's historic districts, sites and structures. So any of the, kind of the pink outlines, the Broadway Historic District, the Great Fire District and others are contiguous districts. The numbered buildings and landmarks on there up to number 35 or 36 I think, we're actually at 37 now, are actually locally listed historic sites or landmarks. So the yellow, if you can distinguish where the yellow zones are here, year, are actually where the three parks that we're going to be talking about tonight. Broadway Park is the one on the upper part of the city to the right side, on the east side of the city is Chapin Park, what is today called Chapin Park. For many years it was actually referred to as the Commons. This was Bangor's Commons, and on the lower part you see a smaller Park at the intersection of Cedar and Main Street, which is Davenport Park, which actually was, as I'll describe later, is, was a part of a Davenport Square. There was actually a much larger park system there. Matthew, thank you. This is a wonderful reference map that any of you can download when you go to the Library of Congress. It's a hand-painted, what's called a bird's eye or a panorama view of Bangor. We found it to be incredibly accurate in terms of houses and architectural shapes and buildings identified and locations. So it shows Bangor in 1875. It's called the Augustus Koch map. And it was a time when they were doing panorama maps of many of Maine's communities. So Library of Congress, if you want to download it for free, it's a wonderful resource. You can zoom in on these, and they're highly important in terms of us understanding how our city was planned. So you can see this was in a time when Bangor was busy bringing logs down. You can see the logs on the right side of the Penobscot River, in the basin where logs were being brought down, mills on both sides of the city, Bangor and Brewer, that were milling out all of this lumber, and it was being shipped out all over the East Coast and as far away as London to build structures. So Matthew, thank you. So towards the bottom of your map you'll see, I don't know if I can help direct you, but Davenport Square is actually, Matthew, if you can see that, do you have a pointer? Turn, yeah. Great, there we go, thank you. So in that area at the intersection of Cedar Street and Maine was actually a much larger square. It was called Davenport Square, that went out into Main Street and actually routed a loop around a central park piece. It was cut back, Davenport Park, and all the other parks that we're talking about again tonight were from the 1830s early layout of the city. But Bangor had a lot of squares. We had Pickering Square that we still refer to today. We had East Market Square, West Market Square. We had Union Square, which was that park that's right behind where the Bangor House is, a very large park. So the urban planning that was done, and Stetson Square, which is another important one, up on Oak Street into Broadway. And that lays out the esplanade that we see in the great plantings, tree plantings that we see along Broadway. So a lot of these ideas, the Stetson family, the French family and others came from Boston. They were actually speculators and they actually wanted Bangor to be, to resemble and have some of the urban features that Boston and other great cities have. Interesting that Charles Bullfinch, the renowned architect of the U.S. Capitol building and the Massachusetts State Capitol building, in the Main. state capitol building for that matter actually in about 1801 laid out a segment of city streets which is on just the east side of the kandeski extreme where it intersects with the penobscot river that first group of streets really defined a grid system for the rest of that side of the city so charles bullfinch again, renowned Boston architect involved in laying out the city of Bangor. Matthew? So when we list any facilities or building or landmark, there's criteria that are considered. What makes these parks different or more important or as important as some other parks that are protected? expected one this these feature important Urban Park landscapes that were that made surrounding neighborhoods desirable and were essential part of Bangor's early city planning efforts. When I said it made them desirable, the plan was when they were subdivided, the park was located in the center and perimeter lots were laid out on all four sides. That's true at Chapin Park, it's true at Broadway Park, not so much on First Street for Davenport Park, but they were being sold as a as having a great amenity, which is this city park, this urban park right across from them. So Broadway and Chapin parks were actually associated with important landscape designers. Charles Bryant, the very important American architect from Bangor, actually laid out the city commons, later become Chapin Park, in 1834. Frank Blaisdell, Boston landscape architect, actually did refinements at Chapin Park that I'll share with you in 1897. Jay Prescott, the city engineer, did the Broadway Park layout in 1835, which showed two parks, you know, that were bisected by Broadway, and Frank Blaisdell again, the landscape architect, did layouts and designs fairly high level detail for Broadway Park in 1898. So these parks are really examples, good examples of American landscaped parks designs in the period between Andrew Jackson Downing's tradition for planting up urban areas and for early City Beautiful urban planning movements. City Beautiful was a movement, a national movement that came out of the 1893 Columbia Fair that basically promoted the idea of open spaces, green spaces, landscape park spaces, and improvements being made, tree plantings, really enhancing cities to be as beautiful as they could be both in landscapes and in building design. Matthew, thank you. Another map, and again we're very lucky to have some wonderful maps of Bangor that tell help tell the story. This is actually from 1853, this is called the Walling map, and I just cut a small section of it right here on the right side so you could see where City Common was, which was nowhere near the center of the city, but it was over towards Palm Street in that way where the top of it shows a curve. It's actually been straightened today. I think it's called Coombs Drive or Coombs Street, and that is what became Chapin Park again. The later designs in the late 1800s put features in that park that I'll share with you in just a moment. You also see Broadway Park at the top of this map. Broadway Park is quite a bit larger than some of the other parks in the city, and actually cutting diagonally across the park was the route of the Bangor Piscataquis Canal and Railroad Company. We refer to as the old Vesey Railroad today. Ran from 1836 to 1869. So within that park there are actually monuments with these cut in them, which represent the connection to Vesey, the Vesey Railroad, and there's some remnants. So the trail is kind of marked here through the Broadway Park, and beyond it ran all the way to Old Town, and a couple of cars on the train running every day were for passengers, and it was so it was passengers and freight, but as this plaque says it's in Broadway Park, this was one of the earliest railroads in America running from again Bangor to Old Town. So it started on Curve Street. So if you know where Curve Street is, which is down near the federal building, actually off Harlow Street, kind of near the intersection of Harlow and Curve Street, was a depot, and that was where the depot for the this train came. So most people don't even know about it, but you see some remnants of it when you ride on the interstate and you see below the Essex Street Park that there's some portion of a railroad train right away that runs up through there. Some people ski on it, Matthew. So Davenport Park, this is a beautiful park. It's a portion of what was once called Davenport Square. By the early 1900s its composition included a central fountain, curved linear paths, and mature elm trees. In 1922 the renowned sculptor Charles Teft, apologized for the spelling, it should be two F's there, he replicated in granite the ship's bow of the USS Maine, which is blown up as you all know the story, in Havana Harbor. So what you have though in the park, when you look at the photograph on the lower right, you can see that there's a diagonal path that's still there from the original days. The fountain actually was located right where the monument is today, so that was changed out in the 20s, but again this was a beautiful small park, but still a very important park in Bangor's history. Matthew? Thank you. On the upper left, you see actually Frank Blaisdell's landscape architect design, the layout for Broadway Park. And Broadway Park featured those curvilinear paths. It had a pond. It had a play area. I think it had a bandstand. You can see in the postcard below that graphic traffic there was a fairly large pond in Broadway Park, so the pond is gone, and the pond's been gone from several parks in Bangor. I think they're hard to keep clean, or they were dangerous, for whatever reason the parks no longer there, but some of that landscape, the shapes and the Knowles that you see in the park are really were the result of the shaping to develop that pond, which is still somewhat evident today. So the lower left you see a pan view looking out across the whole park, which is fairly large, still there's an important tree plantings, trees, street trees that have been planted along Broadway in French Street and around the park, which still maintain the look in the original plan for the park. So you can see the upper right graphic, I apologize, it's probably very hard to see, but there's still the curvilinear paths exist today from the original layout out, somewhat maybe slightly modified, someplace they were cut because playground or something was put in that just kind of proves the evolution of these parks is important to the neighborhoods, the people it serves, but you can see from that graphic that the landscape, the trees especially, have been maintained, maybe not all elm trees, but there's there was a period when elms were taken down in Mangor, so those don't exist so much, but replacement trees and still it's a very solid looking layout for a landscape park that kind of matches what the intent was of Blaisdell, the landscape architect. Matthew? And the same at Chapin Park. Chapin Park had actually a fairly large pool, which you can see in that postcard photo, and a big fountain. Fountains were common and in several of these parks they're no longer there, but it was laid out with you would come to a center point, central to that was the this fountain that you see, the pond beyond, and then a bandstand farther down. So if you look at the photograph taken within the last few years, aerial photograph, you can still see evidence of those pathways that were laid out there pretty much originally to the Blaisdell plan, broken in some places, the city has basically run a diagonal a Strong diagonal from one corner to the other, which is the most direct way to get to the center and the other side. So that works. Again, these parks continue to evolve, and they continue to serve their neighborhoods for various reasons. And that's located where you see that little red circle around it, which shows it fairly heavily wooded in the 75 map. Matthew? So when we do the surveys that Anya was talking about, when architectural surveys are completed, the data goes into a database called CARMA. CARMA is Cultural Architectural Resource Management Archive. And basically, you can access this map when you go to the Maine Historic Preservation Commission's office, MHPC, you'll see a link to these karma maps for the whole state of Maine, but you can zoom into Bangor, and any one of those properties you see there you can click on, you can get data, important data about the place, whether it's a park or whether it's a house or a building or whatnot. So it also tries to show you what there's a distinction between some colors, the tree streets being green as you'll notice were, because they were entered as information and there's been no action by the commission to create commission districts there, but where they are districts will be usually in the red tones, pink and red. So again, it extends into other communities around, not just Bangor, but it covers the whole state. Matthew, so kind of concluding, when you bring up that information, you're going to get something like this, happens to be the historic preservation commission's survey forms done most recently. This one is Davenport Park. It'll tell if there are important people involved in it, what the date of the development was, how important it was to the planning of the city, and I think this one goes on to say that this was actually Davenport Park, was named Davenport Park because of Isaac Davenport, who donated the property to the city of Bangor. So Matthew, I think that's all I got. Yep. So thank you. I hope you found that at least somewhat entertaining, but we're always learning about Bangor. It's fascinating the way the city developed, and research that I've done at the registry of deeds shows graphically some really wonderful drawings that were developed to lay out these neighborhoods, again trying to be a, to do city planning in the best way like the big cities on the east coast we're doing. So if there's any questions or anything I can answer. [23:14] Nathaniel King: so if anyone has any questions you're free to approach the podium just there should be a button in front of the microphone you can make sure to tap that button that it turns green so that we can all hear you and anybody tuning in via zoom can also hear you i'm [23:33] Mike Pullen: in trouble now. I'll go first. [23:37] Robert Reed: I'm Robert Reed. I live at 218 Broadway, which is on the southeast corner of the western side of Broadway Park, and the letter that we got said that section 148 or something is being amended. So my question is, does that amendment include the designation of Broadway Park as a landmark standing on its own, or is it becoming part of the Broadway Historic District? [24:32] Speaker E (unidentified): It would be standing on its own as a landmark. Okay. [24:35] Robert Reed: So how will that affect the Broadway Historic District? It shouldn't affect it. Okay, and next question I have is, how will use of the park be affected by designating this as a [24:52] Speaker E (unidentified): landmark? I don't, I don't think the use should be affected. It would really be the physical [24:57] Mike Pullen: development of the park. Can you correct me if I'm wrong, right Robert, what the park, the city of the Bangor controls, the recreation department controls parks in the city. Okay, so if for instance there was a plan to expand the play group, they would come or play yard, they would come to the commission to see if anything that would be considered character defining in that Park was being affected. That's how it, that's how it was reviewed. So it doesn't change the use. It might actually bring some attention to the importance of these parks and importance not just, you know, to Bangor but to the region as people pass by him. So I don't think the uses are changing. [25:40] Robert Reed: Okay, will there be any improvements as part of this designation to the, to the park? There's no [25:47] Speaker E (unidentified): changes planned. This is really just to recognize the importance of the park. I know since we've [25:53] Robert Reed: lived there that on the eastern side of the western side of the park there have been at least five or six trees that have been lost, usually due to weather related events or, and some were cut down because of the condition of the trees. Is there any, is there any plans to replace trees that have been lost recently? Possibly I [26:21] Speaker E (unidentified): Will say the city is actually doing an urban forest management plan right now, and that includes trees in the parks. And so there may be recommendations in that plan to maybe reforest some of the parks. Okay, of course it had, it would have to be budgeted, you know, to add those trees. I think right now the city's really focused on street trees, but you know, and you could always say something, you know, to the parks and rec director and public works, you know, about your desire to have more trees there, you know they might [26:48] Mike Pullen: they might take that into account. So I think adding to that, Robert, the fact that the history of the design of the park featured street trees significantly, would there be good arguments that could be made for returning Street trees and getting them mature as quickly as they [27:05] Robert Reed: could? Yeah, some of the trees that have been lost have been, have been very old and mature [27:12] Mike Pullen: trees, and yeah, they may been original. Yeah, and [27:19] Robert Reed: lastly, whether would there be any effects on adjacent properties, both within the Broadway district, but in non-historic areas surrounding the park. [27:35] Speaker E (unidentified): There shouldn't be any changes. There's no additional restrictions being put on surrounding properties, so it shouldn't affect you. The only situation I would see where other property would be affected would be in a very off-chance scenario of somebody coming and demoing a whole block and that somehow taking a part of the park, kind of like what they did at the Y, they took part of that Park, you know, maybe a situation like that might be affected, but I don't see that ever happening with these areas. So let's see, my questions I have, sorry. Okay, thank [28:18] Speaker F (unidentified): you. Thank you, and that, like that's why we're here though, to protect that from happening for these ones, correct? Yeah, it should protect that happening. I don't want, yeah, come in. [28:33] Unidentified public commenter: I live at 396 French Street on Broadway Park, and just a quick question about uses. We notice that there are often organizations who use the park for one event or another. I assume that requires probably a permit from the city, your permission, and will that change? Will the uses of the park change with this designation for a portion of it? Can the organization still come in, or do they have to come to you, the historic committee, to do what they want to do in the park? That shouldn't change anything [29:03] Speaker E (unidentified): because they're not physically changing the park. Okay, all right, thank you. Actually, [29:11] Peter James Sachs: well now, would the like erection of temporary structures in the park have to come before this commission? [29:17] Speaker E (unidentified): well since it's temporary then probably not so yeah any [29:25] Speaker F (unidentified): other questions oh sorry so like just as an example the broadway park has the outdoor gym that they have so in the future if they wanted to do something like that is that considered temporary [29:39] Speaker E (unidentified): the outdoor gym or is it more permanent i think i mean that would be considered more permanent right so they'd have to come before us if they were to put it permanent yeah okay that's not to say that it couldn't happen you know because Mike and I had talked before this and he made the point like there's not a lot of historical features remaining in [29:59] Nathaniel King: the park so you know they could probably still do something like that yeah if the park was listed with it could it be considered as a contributing property to the Broadway Historic District would that be something that would I think in the answer [30:14] Mike Pullen: answer to Robert's question it's a separate standalone designation okay not a continuation [30:21] Nathaniel King: of the right not that it's continuation but like is it going to be so if it's listed as a local landmark or a local historic property we've already got the Broadway Historic District you know we've got the historic districts and we have properties that contribute to those districts so it would still be its own it's not contributing so it's not contributing okay thank you within any [30:44] Mike Pullen: any of the districts in the city buildings may or may not be contributing to the district you may have a non-contributing building next to one or two that is contributing so I think what Nathaniel is asking is would this park be contributing to the Broadway one and no it's a separate designation yeah so again these are important parks I think at the end of that last phase four survey that was done part of those surveys and with recommendations to go forward this was one of those that's being put to the commission so the rest of the process is what if [31:25] Speaker E (unidentified): you could explain it after this we would put it official language through to Council and then it would come back to the commission for the formal public hearing which is on June 11th and then they make a recommendation formal recommendation to council and then that goes back to them for second reading which is the final decision on that so and that would be i can't remember what the next council meeting is after june 11th but it might be the week or two weeks after that do [31:55] Nathaniel King: we have anyone online for any comment or questions okay yeah well if they're [32:09] Peter James Sachs: May I make my additional comment? So like, I wonder, so Mr. Mr. Poland, could you talk a little bit about what would be, what would, what would be protected by this change, what specific... [32:22] Mike Pullen: Like what would be an example of specific would change? Very good question. What, when we review any prop, when the commission reviews any properties, we'll make reference to those parts of that facility or building or piece of architecture that are considered character defining features. No different for the parks. Some of the parks still retain the original curvilinear walks that were there from the original days. That would probably be considered a character defining feature that you have to be careful when you modify it. Doesn't mean you can't modify it or widen it or change the shape, but you need to recognize it as character defining. So those features would be pointed out to the commission for your decision making, like we do with any of the structures. Yeah. [33:09] Speaker E (unidentified): And I would say the form of the park, like I mentioned, and I think this is more likely on Main Street with Davenport Park and maybe Broadway with Broadway Park. But if there was a major road project that tried to encroach into the parks, which I find unlikely, but, you know, just in the off chance, you know, that would impact, obviously, the form of the park. So I think that kind of thing would add protection. [33:38] Nathaniel King: Any additional questions from the public? Going once, going twice. Okay, well thank you very much for those of you that had comments and came to attend and do the workshop. So we will move on to the next item of business, which is the historic preservation ordinance changes workshop. So in this staff will follow up with the commission on changes to the historic preservation ordinance based on last month's [34:05] Speaker E (unidentified): discussions. Yes, so I did reach out to the main historic preservation commission based on the discussion we had about materials and if we could remove that word materials from the ordinance because we didn't have it in there previously. Their take was that adding it, you know, does have us follow the secretary of interior guidelines, which is what we have to follow as a certified local government, so they did not, and it's also a state requirement, so they did not recommend we remove that, and I did Look back at the secretary standards and what we have, well, so what we were using in the ordinance before for the wording was from the preservation standards, and so I was proposing to change it to, and this was what I was originally proposing to, it was using the rehabilitation standards, which I think is more applicable to that section of the ordinance anyway, and I think it actually gives more flexibility because previously we were saying the new feature had to match in composition, and I feel like By nature, if something matches in composition, it has to be the same material. Maybe you interpret that differently, but that's how I interpret it, so, and I feel like we're adding more flexibility because we're saying where feasible, replace in materials. So I tried to, you know, say that to Rick, who had the concern, but he disagreed, but anyway, I did, Peter Kubler I think had mentioned that our wording was kind of redundant, so I did replace that one word because we were saying the materials have to match Where possible materials, I changed that first word to features, so the future has to match the original where possible materials. So that was the only thing I changed, except I did add, or Matt added, a definition of character defining future. It's still very difficult to define, and I think that's what Mike was getting at the previous meeting, because it does vary depending on the district and the property, and from what I could find online, they recommended that people have pre-op meetings, which is What we've been doing, so we can tell people, we can evaluate the individual property and advise on what is a character defining future, given Mike's professional expertise, like that's the recommendation from other places, and they did also recommend to, though, for commissions to determine in each district, what are the important features that you want to see preserved or for specific historic sites. And so I think when we do round 2, that's the discussion we need to have, and we can write that into the ordinance as guidelines for each district. What are the typical character defining features. Can you read the definition? Yeah, I do. And yeah, so it says prominent elements of a historic structure that highlight its character. These elements can include overall shape of the building, materials, craftsmanship, and decorative details. Guidance on determining character defining features can be found in National Park Service Preservation Brief 17 titled Architectural Character, identifying the visual aspects of historic buildings as an aid to preserving their character. And that brief really gives people like a step-by-step guide to determining that. So yeah, I mean, it's just very, what's the word? It's based on the individual scenario. [37:55] Nathaniel King: Yeah. And I think it was important, something that you highlighted in there was having professional opinion. Because one of the things about when you go into secretary standards is when you work in historic preservation a lot of the individuals that do that work or are decision makers in that work have to be what's called secretary of the interior qualified which means that you have shown a basic minimum competency and skill set in whatever specific part of historic preservation you're working in whether it's architecture archaeology history and I know that there was some concern last than the last meeting where it was expressed that you know anyone should be able to tell someone what a character defining feature is of their property and I'm not sure that I exactly agree with that understanding because you know I don't think everyone necessarily has the level of knowledge about architecture or architectural history that say Mr Poland has or a secretary qualified architectural historian would have so I think [39:05] Mike Pullen: that's an important thing to call out in some way yeah absolutely one of the things that would help the commission I don't know if you've all seen it but there's a book out called an American field guide to American homes something like that Virginia leash I think wrote it McAllister it's a fantastic go-by so by the styles you can open it up and you could find say a greek revival style and shows the pediment detailing it shows various column entablatures everything's there for you say oh yeah if I lost that the way I define character defining is if it's gone the piece of architecture suffers greatly think of it that way and I think one thing I had [39:50] Speaker E (unidentified): forgot to mention was that the karma forms that mike has talked about and some of the historical documentation he brings I think a lot of times talks about what are those character defining features yes so that if applicants can find that or we can give it to them that should [40:06] Speaker G (unidentified): make it easier for them to determine yeah and I know I probably sound like a broken record on the [40:11] Nathaniel King: City of Portland's handout that they give the people, I think I'll bring it up once a meeting, but in that, you know, they do show some of those neighborhoods, they say here's character defining features of this type of, and they show pictures from the property where it's sort of blown out and pulled out, and it's like, shows, you know, I have given, I sent copies of it to your boss, I'm drawing a blank, that is a good question, I found it on their website, and like the good corporate resource professional I am, I shamelessly stole it so that we can copy it, I'm selling it, that's right, but you know, we've also talked and we've heard from the public too that like, oh, they would love it if they had some sort of a guide, and we were just talking about for each of these neighborhoods of how good of an idea it would be to talk about what's character defining in the Broadway district, or you know, one of the other, you know, Great Fire, or whatever, and I think that's a fantastic idea, and I think being able to have that thing or that handout as an offshore if someone came to see on you about something, oh, what district do you live in, oh, okay, let me pull this page and hand this to you, this is from our handout where it shows this historic district, this is some examples of those character defining features [41:26] Katie Coe: But that's, you know, just an idea, no, I really like the idea of defining by district, but we also have the problem of the 27 individually listed properties and how do we address the character to defining features of those, because many of them are outside of the districts, yeah, it's actually [41:46] Mike Pullen: easier to do by style, architectural style, that's what I was thinking, if you have a style grouping, you can say you expect to see these things, yeah, and if you've got all those, you're probably a [41:56] Katie Coe: Gothic Revival household, exactly, I think that's where I would, if we had some kind of different structure, yep, for those that would be really helpful, doesn't their listing also call out what their defining features would be, or what, I think, I think that the listings maybe define architectural style, but maybe not what the character defining features are on it, so if we in our handout, if we had like, you know, this of a Gothic Revival house, the character defining finding features are the verge boards and the hooded windows, pointed windows [42:33] Mike Pullen: again, that field guide book, excuse me, that field guide book is a great reference, yeah, so we should [42:40] Katie Coe: At least get a copy for all of the mission members. I have a copy and it's a wonderful resource. I have [42:46] Nathaniel King: a copy as well and one on American Farm North New England Barnes. Really that's a great book. [42:51] Katie Coe: There's one that's called the Old House Dictionary as well, and you can. It's great for terminology if you're looking kind of for an esoteric feature on a building. It's really very useful. So how many styles do we have? [43:07] Speaker F (unidentified): Are we asking you to write a book? [43:12] Mike Pullen: Well, again, the reference book, if we could use that reference book and actually take examples of those. What we think the public would really be useful for people coming in as applicants then it's not it's not over I will continue this discussion bring some materials together and I'll look at [43:32] Nathaniel King: them together and I think too one thing I'll remember to do and I think I've told Annie at least two meetings ago I was going to do this I don't believe that I have yet I have two kids that is to provide all of y'all a copy of what I absconded from the city of Portland's website with that way you could kind of see that I could definitely do that yeah and [43:54] Speaker E (unidentified): if the commission if you all feel like you're up for kind of drawing this all together you know we can talk about that maybe at the special meeting in July otherwise you know there probably will be another ground round of the certified local government grants this fall. It could be a potential project with that. However, I do also have other ideas for that grant that we can discuss, but I just want to throw that out there. See what you think. [44:27] Mike Pullen: But it- Are you gonna make this an item of business? Can you carry it forward? [44:30] Speaker E (unidentified): Yeah, yes, I will. I will say it would be good to kind of try to sort this out over the next months, you know, six months or whatever. Because I would like to start working on round two of the ordinance updates maybe after the summer maybe in the fall so yeah [44:53] Speaker G (unidentified): yeah any other comments on that I also want to point out I believe it's also historic [44:58] Nathaniel King: preservation month I believe that May is historic preservation month so hooray I can't even believe [45:07] Speaker G (unidentified): it's May halfway through May no less I know so are we all good with the ordinance changes [45:16] Katie Coe: now as written yeah I think it's come a long way I think so yes yeah I think it may I think [45:22] Nathaniel King: changing that word to feature I think made in more sense yes thank you for your work on the matter do we need to state for the record that we were provided copies of a document from [45:35] Speaker G (unidentified): From Mr. Farron or well I guess I just say stated it for the record so you're good yeah and so I [45:43] Speaker E (unidentified): will forward this then through Council it'll be first reading on the 27th and it'll come to your June 11th meeting so if we're good with that I did just want to talk about the special meeting date I think we had said July 23rd and I was wondering if you all would be good with doing [46:00] Nathaniel King: that July 16th instead I will be out of state in Mississippi for all of July or most of July for at least a two standard week period the 12th through the 25th okay so maybe July 30th [46:21] Peter James Sachs: I will be out on the 30th as I mentioned in last month I will be out for about it for [46:29] Speaker G (unidentified): about a week at the end of July into August okay and I'm gone that first week the 6th through [46:37] Speaker E (unidentified): the 10th should we shoot for June instead push it up more a bit I mean I currently have nothing on [46:46] Speaker G (unidentified): my calendar for June other than the June 11th HBC meeting okay let me look at city calendar real [46:51] Speaker F (unidentified): quick well [46:59] Nathaniel King: that's the next HPC meeting yeah the next HPC meeting is June 11th [47:06] Speaker E (unidentified): there's nothing scheduled on June 18th or 25th the [47:16] Katie Coe: 18th works for my schedule my schedule was also open [47:19] Speaker G (unidentified): on the 18th is preferable for me other than Mr. Keebler I don't I don't know I don't have his [47:26] Katie Coe: schedule in my phone why not the June 11th meeting I'll have to attend remotely I'm going to be in Rochester okay yeah [47:39] Speaker F (unidentified): making [47:46] Nathaniel King: the shape of a creek revival house as long as I'm not making it [47:52] Katie Coe: it's going to be a more brutalist it's going to be made of concrete yeah and it's going to be [47:58] Speaker F (unidentified): square do a square and say that it's the firehouse yeah there we go it'd be our favorite [48:05] Nathaniel King: building all right so I think with that is there well I got to pull my thing back up now if there's no other business to bring up for the commission then I will happily use my one power to adjourn the meeting going once twice