Portland ZBA grants variance for St. Paul's Anglican Church accessibility project

[0:42] Speaker A (unidentified): Last week felt like it was six days. I know Monday felt like it was two days, and then I just felt [0:48] Speaker B (unidentified): like a whole time. I feel like it's like still the same amount of work. [0:56] Speaker A (unidentified): I didn't realize that with the last recode that you can do only units and then be beforehand. Before you couldn't, but they still have a dozen square foot minimum. Lots of the single family is legally non-conforming because they can't add like [1:20] Speaker C (unidentified): a single building. I feel [1:21] Speaker A (unidentified): that I need you. I just didn't think they made their house bigger. They can do an addition. They just, they can meet the setbacks. I think they added it, but they didn't, I guess. Most lots probably in the before, if that's worth it, but there's some old single whole family homes along there that were built before that public one more now. [1:48] Speaker C (unidentified): It was love passing the occasional single family home with more than half. So like, [1:53] Speaker D (unidentified): interesting. [1:55] Speaker A (unidentified): Oh, it's like Riverside Street, which is industrial, and you can't have them there. But they're old houses that were there for him industrial, most [2:14] Speaker C (unidentified): occasional read store as well. So it's not just interesting. There's the occasional read store as well. That's true. [2:22] Speaker A (unidentified): A friend of mine was saying that, because she goes to Home Depot a lot, that she said, I get gas at the gas and grass, you know, I'm worn out. [2:30] Speaker C (unidentified): Wait, you can actually get gas there? What's that? You can actually get gas there? [2:33] Speaker A (unidentified): It's still a gas station, I think. Wow, interesting. I remember when it was just a gas station, when my kids were playing indoor soccer, and they were out at that sports arena place. [2:43] Speaker C (unidentified): Is the gas cheaper because it's subsidized with grass? [2:46] Speaker A (unidentified): It's always been cheaper. It was like a sick gas station. It was always cheaper. And I was a 10th and sophomore at Cumberland Farms. I always go to the one right on Washington and Ocean. [3:00] Speaker C (unidentified): I fall into the Costco trap. So now I always want to go to Costco. [3:07] Speaker A (unidentified): What's that? You get really overwhelmed. I went with my daughter out in Colorado. And we had cam, too. We had migraine. So I was pushing. It's overwhelming. And I was like, Morgan, how do you get used to where things are? [3:32] Speaker B (unidentified): off and like that. But Vernon, they do. [3:35] Speaker C (unidentified): They do. Thank you. And then they don't let things go. But quite a little. Yeah. I agree. I was like, I'll just go tonight. Anyone can [3:44] Speaker A (unidentified): Have a meeting. Well, it's like even greater jobs. There are certain things I like and my daughter goes more often. Like Alex, whenever you're there, pick up this waffle for me. It's always been so fun for me to see that. Cheryl Walsh, yeah, when she moved in, I wanted to go to Hanover. If I was going to visit her, or if I was going to visit her, you get her Trader Joe's list. There's nuts like around Hanover, New Hampshire. [4:18] Speaker C (unidentified): Well, my grandmother lives in near London, New Hampshire, and she comes here for Trader Joe's. [4:29] Speaker A (unidentified): I just remember when they were talking about whether it was going to be in Garland or Portsmouth and it came here. There is one there now. One of my good friends from high school is in Portsmouth. You got it. [4:45] Speaker B (unidentified): This is me, Abby. I mean, I typically go to Portsmouth, like, if I get old, because they're, you know, [4:53] Speaker C (unidentified): easier to drive from, you know? I'm not sure. I've been home so far. I love Portsmouth. [4:58] Speaker B (unidentified): I mean, it's just, like, that district or here, they're always, like,, you risk your life. [5:04] Speaker A (unidentified): I don't know. Well, that's one of the parts of this area. Someone was like, how come they didn't provide, because it was retail, it was like a, it was a natural food store. I can't think of the name of it. Wild oats. Wild oats. [5:20] Speaker E (unidentified): That's right. It's sort of a chain thing. [5:26] Speaker A (unidentified): I'm just thinking of the wild oats that's in Brentswick. It's at a Canadian station now, because it was a bakery and everything. When Martin was at,, they'd always go there. [5:36] Speaker D (unidentified): I'm guessing Tom and Rico did not review the parking lot for. [5:41] Speaker A (unidentified): You didn't have to, because it wasn't, it was refilled every time you were still here. No,, I'm saying when they built it for wild oats. [5:51] Speaker B (unidentified): I don't drive there. I walk right there from here if I'm going to go. [5:55] Speaker A (unidentified): Sometimes I would park, like if I had a Hannaford's list, I'd park at Hannaford's and just walk over to Trishard's and walk back. Put the windbag in the car. [6:04] Speaker F (unidentified): If you scratched on your car. [6:07] Speaker A (unidentified): There's still a split screen there. [6:11] Speaker G (unidentified): I'm not a good job. But that's what [6:14] Speaker B (unidentified): yeah, I can get automatically shifts. Yeah, I'm not right. [6:19] Speaker C (unidentified): Maybe I think there's a pan on zoning moderators. You know, it's so [6:24] Speaker A (unidentified): funny as I can, like, reach into the nation. Yeah. Oh, [Speaker G (unidentified): yeah. All right.] Let's see. Oh, and you just have to go to the picture and then how are you? see. [6:53] Speaker B (unidentified): So I mentioned Nathaniel that he wasn't here last meeting so he'll see what's on the record then. [6:59] Speaker C (unidentified): As we have to start recording now, how precisely do you put on the record? Because it's not something we vote on. It's just that we asked him during the course of the meeting. [7:20] Speaker B (unidentified): Yeah, I think you can just say that when you start it, you know, you're right there on the end to say review the [7:28] Speaker A (unidentified): where you want to go to the watch party. [7:35] Speaker C (unidentified): I was trying to also take public comment. [7:39] Speaker B (unidentified): Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. Okay. [7:41] Speaker C (unidentified): Yeah. Because we need to see the information. So I think. [7:44] Speaker B (unidentified): We could limit it to that. I don't agree. Yeah. [7:53] Speaker D (unidentified): It's not a simple one. It's not a problem. No, I won. [7:57] Speaker C (unidentified): I won. He gets through because I have a bride and business account. [8:03] Speaker G (unidentified): So I have to fly there, but it's Spain, Saudi Arabia. [8:09] Speaker A (unidentified): I don't know, Spain's not looking at us all sharp either. After this game, I'm sure they'll be fired up. You're next to Todd. There you go. You got it. [8:31] Speaker C (unidentified): I'm actually going to switch. No, I'm actually charging now. Now that people are here, they might. [8:49] Speaker A (unidentified): I'm going to wait a minute. Well, that thing was going to get a little back change. [Speaker D (unidentified): But you] know what? If we're going to see the Mac, are you doing that for? No, I'm just trying to get it out of the. [9:04] Speaker D (unidentified): Oh, it will correct. [9:06] Speaker A (unidentified): Yeah, we want to be able to see. [9:09] Speaker G (unidentified): Yeah. Oh, probably aren't going to have any quality problems tonight. [9:35] Speaker A (unidentified): I don't know, is there a show I didn't even sleep? Yeah, there's something going on. Yeah, there's something. If it's ever a real issue... There's a part of the rest of the list, huh? [9:51] Speaker B (unidentified): Yeah, but I can walk you out with my bag. [9:54] Speaker A (unidentified): We do have, we could grab one from upstairs that's like a, So you can get a pass to not have to pay for your parking at Elm Street. [10:04] Speaker B (unidentified): Turned up for the Planet of the Apes? Yes. What's [10:12] Speaker C (unidentified): that? A group of chimpanzees living in a rescue sanctuary gathered to discuss their own potential liberation. That's good. [10:20] Speaker B (unidentified): No, you guys. Other poor ticks look like that. [10:24] Speaker A (unidentified): That's looking pretty good. [10:27] Speaker G (unidentified): Actually, they're human after it. [10:29] Speaker F (unidentified): They're not actual human pets. [10:30] Speaker C (unidentified): It was actual chimpanzees, I'll be very, I'll be very, I don't think it's 99% true, but I think it's 99% the same. [10:40] Speaker E (unidentified): Is that right? How long was your ticket? [10:43] Speaker A (unidentified): Oh, come on, I remember when the first Planet of the Apes movie came out, Charlton Heston. [10:53] Speaker C (unidentified): I've only seen the old ones, but the new ones were very, you know, actually, they're like the old ones for most of the, like, files. [11:00] Speaker A (unidentified): Yeah, less action. Okay. There it is. All right. Do we have meetings? I don't know. We don't have one on the second. Okay. So thank you for that. [11:41] Speaker D (unidentified): Okay. You're at six. [11:43] Speaker C (unidentified): So let me get us started. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the June 18th, 2026 meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Portland. The Zoning Board of Appeals will conduct this meeting by hybrid methods in accordance with the requirements of 1 MRS Section 403B and the Zoning Board of Appeals remote participation policy. This meeting is being conducted using Zoom. Before we begin the public hearing, I would like to read you our rules and procedure. The Board and members of the public are expected to act with civility and to treat each other with mutual respect. Applicants will state their case before the Board and may present witnesses and offer and offer documentary evidence. Following the conclusion of the applicant's case, the opponents may present witnesses and offer documentary evidence. Applicants and any abutter or similar person withstanding shall have the right to present witnesses on the applicant's behalf and offer rebuttal evidence. Acting through the chair, parties may cross-examine witnesses. Chair may limit irrelevant, immaterial, or unduly repetitious evidence. [12:43] Speaker D (unidentified): At the conclusion of the rebuttal evidence, [12:51] Speaker C (unidentified): the public portion of the proceeding will be closed and the board will rule on application pursuant to applicable provisions of portland's land use ordinance city of portland work code ordinances and main law no business shall be transacted by the board of appeals that a quorum consisting of four members in the present the majority of the members present shall be necessary to authorize any action by the board meeting is being recorded a link to the recording and recordings of past meetings is available on the city's website appeals from decisions of the board will be filed in superior court pursuant into 30a MRSA section 26912g. All other matters pertaining to the conduct of hearings shall be governed by the provisions of the relevant statutes chapter 14 of the City of Portland Code of Orphanses and the rules promulgated by the Board of Appeals. Thank you and we start with our roll call. [13:40] Speaker A (unidentified): Todd Morse. I'm here. Dan Black. Here. Andrew Weaver. Here. Nancy English. Here. Brian Lozaner. Here. Nathaniel Ferguson. Here. I [14:03] Speaker C (unidentified): think we have two items of business. Both are under old. Have you seen the administrative appeal before? I'm sorry. That one's been [14:14] Speaker B (unidentified): tabled at the request of the applicant. It'll be re-noticed if a hearing is required. Okay. [14:20] Speaker C (unidentified): Sorry, I missed that. So the first item is tabled, which is the 570 Congress Street Ralph H. Prye, trustee owner administrative appeal. So we have one other item of business, which is the practical difficulty variance appeal from the previous meeting. That is 279 Congress Street, St. Paul's Anglican Church owners, tax map 021 block E, block 7 and 8, and the Indianapolis Street point-based zone, new annual sub-district. And before we start, we do have one board member who wasn't at the previous meeting, and I would ask, have you reviewed the previous meeting, the video of the previous meeting, and do you feel comfortable discussing this issue tonight? Yes. Just for the record, I reviewed the written materials, and I watched the recording, [Speaker G (unidentified): deliberating them. Okay.] Okay, Alkin, thank you for picking up. So we've reviewed your previous materials, your new materials, and feel free to present the materials as well or anything that you'd like to add. And we can ask you questions, but also if you feel the materials speak for themselves, it's up to you. [15:45] Speaker E (unidentified): OK, once again, I'm just not seeing the shears. There [16:07] Speaker D (unidentified): should be a green button at the bottom. Here we go. Hey, [16:55] Speaker E (unidentified): there you go. Oops, last page, but I can thank you at the beginning. So I have, you know, you've seen this slideshow last time. Some of the slides you saw before. I will go through those a little bit more quickly this time. And then just highlight the ones that are new, which is just a few slides. Right. So this slide shows you on the right, that's the oldest photograph that we have of the church and the rectory. It's from the 19th century, and it shows you that the rectory is wood. There's a entry chapel on the left of the church, but the church is stone facing Congress Street and facing Locust Street. And then on the left, the west wall at the back of the church was built to be temporary and I guess it was well enough built that it's still there. And then you can see facing the courtyard, the backyard of the church, the finish is brick with the stained glass windows again mirroring those that face locusts. So that's just giving you an overview of materials around the church. And this you saw last time, this is there's one step upper left, there's one step into the vestibule. This is the main entrance to the church currently. Then to the right of that you're seeing the same door from the inside. It's tough to tell, but there is a short makeshift ramp going up to the sanctuary level. It's 12 inches of changing rise from outside the door to the sanctuary floor. On the lower left, this is the parish house entrance. There are two steep steps getting up into the parish house and then on and that's a rise of 21 inches from the church and then on the right you're seeing a long walkway that heads back from the church to the parish house so directing you again to the upper left that for to get for the coffee or Bible study or other things that happen going from the church or a reception going from the church to the parish house you go out that door to Locust Street sidewalk and then along this walkway back to the parish house so that it's all none of it is under cover or enclosed and it's over 90 feet to get from one to the other so one of the goals of this project is to provide accessibility and to provide amenities that modern churches have that people did not expect in when this church was opened in 1868. This is a site plan. The church sanctuary to bump out on the lower part of the page that's that Locust Street entrance and you can see the walkway that heads back to the parish house. So this is a plan that you saw last time. It shows a five-foot setback that we are asking for this connecting building that we're calling a cloister that leads from the church. So on the bottom is the church and you'll come out the doorway up a short ramp six and a half inches and then up 19 and a half to get us our 21 inches to the parish house which is at the top of the sheet i explained last time about the we tried to go straight we desperately thought all we need to do is do a straight run from the church to the parish house but by the time we accommodate a minimum of 21 feet of ramp and landings and turning radiuses to make the ADA and also clearances for every doorway. This is what we ended up with and this is the same drawing except that I have added more information than it's in your packet on exactly what we're asking for with this variance. We learned last time that if we ask for five feet, we don't just get five feet all the way along. We need to be more specific. So we got together at the church to say, okay, what do we really, you know, need to do here? There is a jog of three-tenths of a foot at the upper left property line, and so that means that instead of a five-foot variance in that particular, I don't know, 16 inches or something before you hit the parish house, we're asking for a 4.7-foot variance setback reduction. Sorry, and then the other dimension that's added in this is at the bottom to the left of the corner of the church I've noted two feet that is a dimension from the corner of the church down to where that new wall returns, turns and goes into the church and I'm doing that because oh yes. Sorry, the photo on the right shows you that the brick wall that faces the backyard turns the corner and you see brick there. And they don't want to cover up all of that brick. We want to cover up the temporary asbestos and that's in the next slide. But we don't want to cover up that brick, especially above the roof of the cloister building. And we'll still see that and we want to see that original brick. It also gives me the clearance that I need for the door that goes from the oyster outside to the left and that's the door on the bottom to the far left. I need 24 inches to the left of the handle of that door and that gives me that 24 inches so this has more new information in the center we are requesting a main entrance vestibule we did decide since the last meeting and we need definitely need a new entrance that is wider than any of the entrances we have now the cloister that's been designed for three-foot doors. I tried to make them bigger. I would lose those magical required dimensions for the doors and the mandates for the Americans with Disabilities Act. And so these are a pair of three-foot doors. So when the doors are fully open, we get a six-foot opening into the sanctuary. We're doing all of this to provide access to both the church and the parish house for people in wheelchairs, people with walkers, people who need to hold a companion's arm to navigate. We also have music and the sanctuary actually had been carpeted. That's been removed. Now it has a hard surface. The sound is wonderful. So we've had choral groups and music groups wanting to perform here, and the church is very excited about that. And so bringing in equipment and things will also be, as well as caskets with the people with pallbearers and funeral directors making it easy easier for that, which is really not conducive from the entrance funnel focus. You'll notice we have ramps up and level landings outside also. Those are not actually structures, they're just following the gray. Then also on this sheet you'll see the dark red colored in outside of the existing wall of the church, and that is that temporary wall again. The best way for us to secure that wall and to also secure the foundation, which is rubble stone, it's not as it's not as completely built as the other stone foundation for the church. You can see daylight when you're down in the basement, and of course every critter and bug once can get in there as well. So the best way for us to close that off is to build a new foundation against that stone and then encapsulate this asbestos material by building a stowed wall above the foundation, outside of the church wall. We can then insulate in that wall as well, and we'll have a brick base at the foundation level. We want to keep the materials of the similar quality to the church, but for the historic, the guidance for changes to historic buildings and in particular additions is not to try to make them look like they were always there. So we're not building out of stone, we're not building out of, you know, a whole brick facade like we have in our backyard, but we do want to build a quality wall there. And then at the bottom of the page there's a note that says the new wall ends at the existing stone. This is the same detail that I have at the prick at the other end of that west wall. I don't want to cover the stone corner. I want you to see that the stone has actually formed the corner of the church, and then the new wall starts. And so this drawing simplifies everything that we're asking for. It's showing the dimensions and it's showing the footprints what we're asking for, and I'm just noticing that it does not show that two feet. But getting at the top it's the 4.7 foot setback instead of 10 feet. At the cloister it's five feet. At the new foundation and stud wall it's nine feet, and then at the main entrance vestibule, it's six feet. You have [28:55] Speaker D (unidentified): that two feet which shows in the other drawing. [29:00] Speaker E (unidentified): So, also with me here is Tim Renner. I also have a pronouncer. I couldn't remember emphasis on the second syllable. Renner? Sorry, we know each other very well, but we don't call each other by full names. Yeah, that's the way it went. And we both thought that we were second on the agenda. We thought we'd be sitting there, we're happy we're not sitting there waiting. [29:33] Speaker D (unidentified): And also when it's, I've seen it working after two. Hello, Danny, who are you with? Oh, great. [29:39] Speaker E (unidentified): That's fine. Oh, great, I didn't see people coming behind me. [29:45] Speaker D (unidentified): So I'm the treasurer, and also just with a head up to sitting in the back, both with the back of my hand. As usher, there are all the issues of the acts of the promise, with what is really the temporary, what right now serves as the entrance, the temporary. You can picture the back of the church is really not attractive, and this question came up. The last time I was able to find it, there's history that the building, the building, 1868, after the fires, 1806, and there's a side note, I'm reminded that, which basically was driven by the Moody family. So I just told Lemuel Moody, but actually the Moody's were founders of the church in the 70s. So Lemuel Moody built as the first caretaker of the observatory, 23 miles down the street. And his family lived in Kitty Corner. They had a property in Kitty Corner for a long time. And then the son of Enoch second caretaker of and also his brother really decided to provide us a building in the church at this location so it was quite a connection to the which ended up being in the church for a long history but so it was temporary and so the church did have much more property, but right away records, 1868, this was decided right away that they were trying to pursue expanding the size of the building and they leased the property next to them to the architect, George Pelham, Who was a well-known architect and they felt it would help him financially this way. And then he ended up the next year selling it. So that happened right away that time so before there were any setback so the figuring at this time you know as Carol was mentioned in our view we've put in back doors and we've made a use with the building and requiring some accessory vestibule, and also with the cloister, so that's really, Yeah, [32:40] Speaker E (unidentified): And thank you because I went through the slides, but I totally forgot about why you should have proved it. And so Jim has commented on it. Yes, the cloister and the vestibule are both circulation spaces. As such, they are accessory uses to the church, and therefore it seems that they are approvable. They're necessary items to add to the church, to support the church, to allow more use of the church and the parish house by more people, you know, not just those who need accessibility, but also just different groups. There are groups now who use the parish house, and as we said, there are more groups who would like to use the church. There's also another church, an African-American group, who uses the church for their own services. So we want to expand the use of the church and the parish house, the whole grounds. We want to encourage more membership in the church which brings in also more collections and more support for the church and I think you know we talked about that quite a bit last time so we're happy to go on and on if you like but I think that's what I covered [34:36] Speaker C (unidentified): To do very well thank you thank you so much I had one quick question so you mentioned the vestibule and the cloister and you also mentioned the retaining wall she explained but in terms of the motivation for us these new walls would you say that it might be kind of irresponsible to do the rest of the development and not kind of shore up this wall [35:04] Speaker E (unidentified): Yeah the foundation wall is rubble stone it's not very stable it has holes in it and then the wall that you see in the photo with the asbestos that wall we could strengthen it but our worry is disturbing the historic plaster that's on the other side of that wall. So we would rather build outside, build it, you know, I would want to get into taking off the siding and the sheathing on that wall and opening it up to damage or it's just when you touch things sometimes you create more problems than you want to it also will allow us to add some insulation which will not hurt on this pretty much northwest [36:10] Speaker F (unidentified): Thank you any further questions from the board and what did I may have misheard did you mention there was another two foot setback that wasn't on the plan or was that yeah it shows on the plan [36:25] Speaker E (unidentified): I just didn't mention it and so that is at the bottom of this slide it is in your packet the corner of the church to the outside lower corner of the cloister [36:42] Speaker F (unidentified): That dimension this can speak, okay, but that's not a set, that's not a setback, all right, it's just about the footprint. I think I just miss her and I just want to make sure we in this one. Thanks. Any [36:55] Speaker C (unidentified): further questions from the board? Okay, seeing none, I'm going to open this up to public comment as well. We are mostly considering the new material, so if you would try to keep your public comment to the, to the newer material, that would be helpful for us, but feel free to step up, say your name and address, and make public comment if you would like. See none, it looks like there's no attendees on Zoom, just give people one last moment. Seeing no public comment, I think we can reopen deliberation, have the decision open in front of me. I can start kind of refreshing people's memory on this because there's a few pieces that have changed. So recall we did kind of draft it last time, but we didn't vote on any of the elements, so nothing in here is final. This is just kind of our thoughts from the previous meeting. So this is an appeal on the industry reform-based zone, UN and UA sub-districts. It's a practical variance appeal. For St. Paul's Anglican Church, 279 Congress Street, the applicant is seeking a practical difficulty variance from section 9.1.7c of the city's land use code, which requires a rear yard setback of 10 feet. The applicant is requesting a variance to reduce the rear yard setback as follows. Reduce the rear yard setback from the required 10 feet to 5 feet for the construction of a cloister connecting the church to the parish house. Reduce the rear setback from 10 feet to 6 feet for the construction of an enclosed vestibule with vestibule doors providing a new main entrance to the church. Reduce the required setback from 10 feet to 9 feet along the west wall of the existing church to allow for construction of a new foundation and stud wall outside of the existing west wall, and reduce the setback from 10 feet to 4.7 feet to account for a jog in the property line that occurs near the carriage house. The board has the authority to consider a practical difficulty variance application pursuant to land use code section 2.3.9b, and our findings are as follows. Based on the board's review of the written materials and oral testimony presented at the hearing, as well as the applicable standards, the board finds as follows. An applicant for practical difficulty variance must meet all of the following standards. 1. The need for variance from dimensional standards of the land use code, section 2.3.11d. We have draft language here. This one seems fairly straightforward. There are specific asks changed, but all of it is from setbacks from shared dimensional, so thank you. I would entertain a motion to accept this finding. [39:35] Speaker D (unidentified): So moved. Second. [39:37] Speaker A (unidentified): And a roll call. Todd Morris, yes. Dan Black, yes. Andrew Weaver, yes. NC English, yes. Brian Lozanik, [39:46] Speaker C (unidentified): yes. Nathaniel Ferguson, yes. Okay. Two. Strict application of provisions of this ordinance would create a practical difficulty, meaning that it would both one, for good use of the property, which is permitted in the zone in which it is located. So I think this one is kind of one where there was the most back and forth discussion last time, so the language might end up looking different because there's new material. So at least for me personally, the accessory use, I think, changes this for me, because if you look at the definition of a place of assembly, it references that the place of assembly doesn't need to be the whole structure, it can just be part of the structure, and they specifically reference the part of the structure that's actually used at the assembly place, and even other facilities as part of the building, like food preparation, are an accessory use under the place of assembly. And when it lists accessory uses, it lists uses like food preparation, which are not uses in the list of uses for the zone, which, but it also says that the list is not exhausted, because it says such ads, so it sounds like other accessory uses are allowed as distinct uses from the place of assembly that wouldn't occur with the place of assembly. And I think a vestibule and a hoister are such accessory uses. So at least for me, I think this is, I was hesitant last time, and I think it's new evidence that's kind of shifted my thinking on it, but I will open up to the rest of the board. [41:30] Speaker G (unidentified): My only bias is not the, I mean the cloister use is, the connected nature of the cloister. A cloister use is only allowed by this variance, but just having a cloister in itself is not dependent upon having this. Does that bring it true to you? [42:10] Speaker C (unidentified): I need to think about the context of the property, because I was looking into what a cloister is to be honest, because I'd always thought a cloister is just the whole of a monastery. I think that a cloister might be, by definition, connected to a courtyard. I'm not, that's what I read personally, but I'm not an architect, so I, but it does, that's how I read it, personally. [42:36] Speaker G (unidentified): Yeah. I guess it's a cloister use, or is the use here is, yeah, I guess, I guess, clearly, I'm still struggling with this, but if others are feeling like it, elsewhere, I'm welcome. Something, in my opinion. [42:54] Speaker C (unidentified): The advocate wanted to say something? Yeah, so [42:57] Speaker E (unidentified): I understand the struggle because a cloister associated with a church, especially when you think of a monastery, it actually is a place for meditation. But this, we're calling it a cloister because stylistically I'm able to make it look like that [Speaker B (unidentified): from the] from the backyard side, but it's really a circulation space that provides a connection and accessibility between the two buildings. Also, because of the ramps, you're not going to sit there. You could walk there and that's about it. it thank [43:40] Speaker C (unidentified): you anything for the board i would i would view this as accessory use to the core place of assembly that is precluded absent the variance and so because of that i think that the standard is met right that we would otherwise be permitted to put this cloister in the zone if the setback climate was not there. And so we can grant a variance for private approval. I agree. I think it seems like we have enough consensus to at least put some language down and vote on it. I also think it's worth mentioning that the code specifically typically says that the place of assembly use is partial to the building. So [45:06] Speaker A (unidentified): the accessory uses are? [45:09] Speaker C (unidentified): Yeah, so even though it's part of, yeah. All [45:15] Speaker B (unidentified): right, can you repeat the, which would be? [45:17] Speaker C (unidentified): The place of assembly is part of the building, can be part of the building and accessory uses are additional to, or can be part of the building. and accessory uses are allowed or permitted sorry we also want to reference the main entrance or [45:38] Speaker F (unidentified): like the vestibule space in here as well to not just be so yeah you want [46:00] Speaker B (unidentified): to mention the retaining [46:01] Speaker C (unidentified): Wall as well. We might think that the retaining wall is necessary for the project overall at all. So it's also not allowing, it is also kind of preclusion of these two uses. But the retaining wall isn't in itself a use, but for planting the variants for the wall though. Yeah, I wouldn't be able to use the property in support. Yeah, very [47:24] Speaker F (unidentified): minor. I would call the retaining wall the stud wall instead, just to match what's on the plan. [47:37] Speaker B (unidentified): Todd, you mentioned something about the code [47:39] Speaker C (unidentified): being attached to the building. Yeah so in the their application they mentioned sorry let me just pull up the language they used for the not the language this is actually from the code the place of assembly can be a portion of a building which I feel like is necessary for these to be considered different purposes for instance the place of its assembly itself can be part of building not necessarily the accessory it's sorry and not necessarily the whole structure or something or maybe say a place assembly but that's more of like yeah give people a moment to [Speaker D (unidentified): do this. I] would accept a motion to accept this finding for entertainment. Oh sorry, it can help. [49:11] Speaker D (unidentified): Should you also take up the great thought? Oh yes, thank you. [49:22] Speaker C (unidentified): Okay, now I would entertain a motion to accept this place. So we have a second, thank you. [49:30] Speaker A (unidentified): And we'll call both. Todd Morse, yes. Dan Black, no. Andrew Weaver, yes. Nancy English, yes. Brian [49:39] Speaker C (unidentified): the snack, yes. Nathaniel Ferguson, yes. Okay, moving on to the second item of this first professor of this second item of the second standard would result in significant economic injury to the applicant. Significant economic injury shall mean that the value of the property, if the variance were denied, would be substantially lower than its value if the variants were granted. We have some language from last time. I'll just give people a moment to refresh their memory whenever someone's ready. I would entertain a motion to accept these findings from here on out, just because we've already talked about them. So move. Okay, we have a second. [50:33] Speaker A (unidentified): Yes, Dan Black, yes. Andrea Weaver, yes. Nancy English, is Ryan Lasanic, yes. Nathaniel Ferguson, yes. [50:43] Speaker C (unidentified): Three, the need for variance is due to unique circumstances of the property and not from the general conditions of the neighborhood. I'm gonna, as soon as people are ready and they're looking to move, all right, you have a second. Okay, remember we'll call [50:59] Speaker A (unidentified): this way. Yeah, okay, good, it's just the boilerplate. All right, good, thanks for the video. Todd Morse, yes. Dan Black, yes. Andrew Weaver, yes. Nancy English, yes. Ryan Lasanic, yes. Nathaniel [51:12] Speaker C (unidentified): Ferguson. Yes. Yeah, or the granting of the variance will not produce an undesirable change in the character of the neighborhood and will not happen with a reasonably detrimental effect on either the use or fair market value of a budding property. [51:23] Speaker B (unidentified): I had a similar line based on the mirror. Feel free to suggest any additional. [51:28] Speaker C (unidentified): Let's just maybe take an extra second on this one. Yeah. Three out of there for this. I will. Do you entertain a motion to accept this finding? Second. Todd Morse. Yes. Dan Black. Yes. Andrew Weaver. Yes. Nancy English. Yes. Brian Lozanek. Yes. Nathaniel Ferguson. Yes. Five, the practical difficulty is not the result of an action taken by the applicant or a prior owner. I would entertain a motion to accept this finding. Todd [52:26] Speaker A (unidentified): Morse. Yes. Dan Black. Yes. Andrew Weaver. Yes. Nc English. Yes. Brian Lasanic. Yes. Nathaniel Ferguson. [52:34] Speaker C (unidentified): yes no feasible alternative is available to the applicant except a variance i've used hold on slightly there's no comments on the recent change i would entertain a motion to accept this finding [53:11] Speaker A (unidentified): So moved. Okay. Sorry. Five more. Yes. Dan Black. Yes. Andrew Weaver. Yes. Nancy English. Yes. [53:19] Speaker C (unidentified): Ryan Lasanic. Yes. Nathaniel Ferguson. Yes. Seven, the granting of a variance will not have any reasonably adverse effect on the natural environment. I would entertain a motion to accept this finding? So moved. Second. [53:37] Speaker A (unidentified): Todd Morse. Yes. Dan Black. Yes. Andrew Weaver. Yes. Nancy English. Yes. Brian Lozanek. Yes. Daniel Ferguson. Yes. [53:47] Speaker C (unidentified): The property is located in whole or in part is not located in whole or in part within a shoreland area as defined in 38 MRS section 435 nor within a shoreland zone or flood hazard area as defined in the land use code. I would entertain a motion to accept this finding. So moved. Second. [54:06] Speaker A (unidentified): Vlad Morse. Yes. Dan Black. Yes. Andrew Weaver. Yes. Nancy English. Yes. Brian Lozano. Yes. Nathaniel Ferguson. Yes. Okay. [54:17] Speaker C (unidentified): The board finds that all the standards have, the board finds that all the standards described above have been satisfied and therefore grants the practical difficulty variance. I would entertain a motion to grant this variance. [54:31] Speaker A (unidentified): Your roll call. Todd Morse. Yes. Dan Black. No. Andrew Weaver. Yes. Nancy English. Yes. Ryan Lazanek. Yes. Nathaniel Ferguson. Yes. [54:43] Speaker C (unidentified): Okay. Congratulations and thank you for working more on your application. Good night. And as that is our last item on the agenda, I would entertain a motion to adjourn.