Bangor homelessness committee reviews day center RFP, urges patience

[2:26] Teal Vasquez: For the online, we'll call this meeting of the Advisory Committee on Homelessness to order. Did everyone on the committee receive the agenda and the packet? Yes, excellent. All right, so we will just go down the agenda. So the first item on the agenda is base the day city RFP. This is an RFP that has been referred to the committee by council. Jason, I know you have quite a bit of questions and information. So what I'd like to start with though is if Councillor Fitch, are you able to present any, like, any information about what council was really looking for when they put this RFP out, so that we can have a better idea of gauging whether or not this met council's expectations? What's the scope of our authority? [3:25] Carolyn Fish: We do also have something better, yes, and Jim Gunn might be even better to have to answer that, because I probably just know very generic words, and then I think she can give you a little more. [3:36] Jim Gunn: Thank you, thanks for having me. So if it's okay if I just a little bit of context. So how this sort of came to be is about, oh my gosh, just about six months ago or so when The Well closed, we saw people who no longer had a space to be really try and find space in other ways throughout the city, whether it was at the library, whether it was around on the railroad tracks, whether it's in the parks, or whether it's in other places that were either not safe, not welcoming, not accessible. In that, and I'll leave it to Amy to explain this so much, but in that, what also happens is when you go from having a place like The Well to not, it also makes it really hard to support people for service delivery, whether it's street outreach or housing services or the options team. The service providers are now also spending an exponential amount of time trying to reach the people that they serve, because the people that they serve are now always on. And I think even further back in the history is, you know, when Health Equity Alliance or HEAL had received the funding for the Heart Center, it was another place that kind of took pressure off of places like the library, and it provided this location where people could be safe and in a more stigma reduced place, and it was also a Place where all the services came to be able to support this community, and I know there are people sitting around this table that have much deeper experiences in history than me. I just want to kind of lay out sort of how this conversation started. So particularly March, April, when the well closed last year, we then experienced, like we typically do, this influx of people trying to find space in other parts of the city. At that time and continue to this day, we don't have a place in the city right now that's sort of a low barrier day space. We do have amazing organizations doing great work to provide day space or day center availability. Bangor Area Homeless Shelter has run a day space that is very accessible for their clients and for other people in the community who match Bangor Area Homeless Shelter's policies. There's the library, which Ben can speak to. Not an appropriate place for people to do the things that they need to do, but a place that has been welcoming. And I give Ben and your team a lot of credit for being able to do that, making it as safe as possible. There's the parks, which we've seen, and there's a lot of challenges with that in terms of not just being exposed to the heat and elements, but also it's a place that because people are struggling in front of people's eyes, it can be a space that actually breeds stigma. We've seen that. And then there's just been places that are really unsafe, like the railroad. Road. I think we often forget that this is an active railroad. A train goes on these tracks. So one of the possible solutions or strategies to address this issue is a day center space that is a low barrier day center space. There's many models in Maine and across the country that is designated for people who are experiencing homelessness,, housing instability, or even in addition to those people who've been newly housed who still want to be able to connect with their friends and not risk losing their housing because their friends are coming to their apartments, which is what we're seeing right now on the ground. Gay centers are often very accessible, meaning you can get there, whether it's by bus, transportation systems, walking. It's open, meaning that people are able to come and go within rules and sort of expectations. It's welcoming. It provides some level of basic needs, whether there's some day centers where it's just a space and a location to charge your phone or some day centers offer a wider range of basic needs like food, basic hygiene supplies, laundry, showers, and things of that nature. And then at the center of all of this is that link to ongoing support. It's a place where people can go and they know that support services will be able to be accessible. And on the other end for those organizations that are providing the services, they're no longer needing to spend a lot of time going throughout the whole city, while that still may sometimes be necessary, but there's there's a much more efficiency to the work. So one of the things that I would add is, in public health, one of the things that's really important to us is that things are evidence-based. I will be pretty transparent. There's no research that day centers are evidence-based, but that's only because there hasn't been enough research done. So there are some individual pieces of research that's been done that shows the benefit of day centers, but it's something to be evidence-based. It means that there's a whole body of research, and that just hasn't been done. It's not that it isn't evidence-based, it's just the research is still ongoing. However, the pieces of a day center are evidence-based, such as trauma-informed care, safe spaces, reducing barriers to service provision, and ongoing engagement so that people start to get more ready for services. So those parts are evidence-based. So why put out an RFP? So at the time, gosh, it seems like so long ago, I think the beginning of the summer, end of spring, like where did the summer go? When we had these conversations with city council, one of the ideas was to put out an RFP to understand what organizations were available to do this, what was the cost going to be,? What were the things that were going to need to be considered? So there were very specific key pieces to the RFP that I'll just kind of quickly highlight. On page four, there was very specific provider qualifications. And the way that this RFP designed is I looked at RFPs that were done throughout the country. I looked at the warming shelter RFP from Maine Housing and the one that we had done and pulled pieces of that. A couple of important pieces with the is the organization must be owners of the building or have a rental agreement that would align with the period of the day center. There are very specific qualifications around the organization having spirit experience in this field, familiar familiarity with, can't say that word, with the homeless response system and providers, a proven history of fiscal and reporting supporting integrity. The city may require financial statements or other documents to evidence physical integrity, financial health and organizational sustainability. The purpose of the RFP was to for an organization for this to be an additional service, not a service to support the organization. No uncompleted deliverables that were due to the city with any other grant funding and the preferences to spaces and organizations that could operationalize and manage a warming shelter in that same space. So again the RFP provided some of those requirements and then on page seven it highlights some of the mandatory elements around being a non-profit, a conflict of interest without ownership or control of the building, then and here's to the qualifications set forth in this RFP, had adequate staffing structure, key personnel, was able to offer a certain set of scope of services and have the adequacy of outreach and promotion to ensure access. So we put this RFP out and then the other part to this that was important was that this for that preference was given to organizations that would be able to offer low barrier options. [12:38] Jason Goodrich: We asked for two proposals, two budgets, [12:40] Jim Gunn: one for what would it look like for five days a week and one budget that would look like seven days. I'll just pause there for any questions of like how we got to this point. [12:56] Melissa Ann Rhodes: You mentioned HEAL and you mentioned the Bangor Area Homeless Shelter as having done day programs in the past. You mentioned that we don't have any evidence nationally. But I think we do have a lot of local evidence and I think we should probably pull those providers in, especially Bangor, a Bangor area homeless town, to look at and compare what they're doing and what we want this new program to do. [13:25] Jim Gunn: Absolutely. I think you hit a key point. You know, sometimes we talk about the fancy lingo of evidence-based, which means there's not a whole lot of research, but I think you hit the nail on the head in terms of we have a lot of local evidence that speaks to the success. And Bayport Area Homeless Shelter does have their day space in the present. STEPHANIE DESMOND- And I would say the way [13:43] Amy West: that the well has run their day warming center in the winter is another great example of folks have been doing this work for a few years and things that they've learned along the way and adjustments they've made to make this space a valuable space and a sustainable space. And I've been lucky enough to work in pretty much all the day spaces that have had that have been in Bangor and can anecdotally say just from like a delivery of care perspective I'm so grateful when the day spaces are open because I know I can find the people that are the hardest to reach and typically the folks that are the hardest to reach are the folks that need the most support rate. So I dread the days when the warming centers close because I'm like, oh boy. You mentioned the well. [14:33] Melissa Ann Rhodes: That's a winter resource for a warming center. So that's a winter day program. Will that be returning? I [14:43] Jim Gunn: can't speak for the well. They have been part of conversations that Bruce has been in. Bruce, I don't know if you could provide what you know. Yeah, they've been [14:58] Robyn Stanicki: We've been having warming center meetings for the last, you know, all summer, and they've been a part of those meetings. So, just right now they are looking forward to doing it again this winter, so they will be an active partner, you know, likely,, winter, I mean things can change but yeah right now they are. [15:18] Amy West: There's also brick church, which in the summer is open two days a week Tuesdays and Thursdays. And then in the winter typically they try to stay open the five days a week but they're another day space that a lot of people access I was there today and it's incredibly busy there like mind-bogglingly busy right now because it's the only space right now it's open on Tuesdays and Thursdays besides Bengal I think what [15:47] Jim Gunn: we've been hearing from the well and from the warming shelters is that last year was an incredibly challenging year people have very complex needs that require a lot of support and there are some concerns from some of the warming shelters going into this year about preparing again for that and then the financial [16:10] Melissa Ann Rhodes: Sustainability that's needed. You mentioned case management access. Is it the role of these day state programs, the ones we've got that are here and the ones we've had in our past experience, to be more of a referral point or a provider of services? They could be either, you know, they're [16:31] Jim Gunn: both models exist where the organization itself provides those case management services, so right [16:38] Amy West: now we have a little bit of both. Well, Heal was a provider of service, they're not right existence anymore, so they don't. If we're looking strictly at the Well and Brick Church, which in reality are the lower barrier options, they are not a provider of service. They're a referral point and most of the service providers spend time there. Bangor Area Homeless Shelter does have case management services. I don't know if those case management services are only for folks that are actively in the shelter. Which is my next part of the question. How [17:10] Melissa Ann Rhodes: how are those case management services funded at the Bangor homeless shelter? Through the COC? No [17:18] Jim Gunn: yes they don't come out as special. No, Bangor Area Homeless Shelter does not receive Maine COC funding. They do receive, and I can't, this would probably be an answer if Boyd's watching, who I hope he sends an email tomorrow to describe, but what I can say generally speaking is that funding, what are sometimes called navigation services or case management services, come from a few different pots. There are some like e-snap, e-shap funding that provides some and Bruce can probably speak to some of that and then there's also sort of like billable name care case management hours that you can also bill if they're on if someone's eligible for main care but maybe bruce can talk a little bit more about what pays for navigation yeah i mean i believe the [18:03] Robyn Stanicki: shelter has e-shop funds like you didn't and I believe the Hope House has the same thing, that their navigators are through each app domain housing, the housing continuum of services [18:14] Melissa Ann Rhodes: receiving those case back. They're not behavioral health case managers or substance abuse case. Yep [18:22] Jim Gunn: so oftentimes for substance abuse, mental health, it's a referral to CHCS or another [18:28] Teal Vasquez: organization. So I'd like to bring the conversation back to the matter at hand, this RFP. And so is there any other like information you can provide us on the RFP intent and how this response meets those needs? [18:47] Jim Gunn: So I'll just... Or doesn't. Yes. So just continues to... So we did receive one application, which was from Together Place, and they provided both budgets for a five day and a seven day. I would say what they provided here was sort of almost like a platinum version of a day space in terms of particularly around their staffing, the staffing of this plan is very robust, and if I had, you know, a bunch of money to donate, I'd say this is a pretty amazing model. I think this is a great starting place to have a conversation of what a day space could look like and what could be potentially affordable, and so that's what you have today. There was, there's no expectation that, you know, we'd be able to fund anything like this, but again, this was just an example so that we can use to understand what could be right for Bangor, and so that's what's [19:41] Melissa Ann Rhodes: presented to you, and if they were just aware of that, we're looking at this more as a model that's funded them considerably and it's considerably robust. Are they aware that we'll be looking at this in a way that could reduce this? So what I, what I have shared with [20:00] Jim Gunn: with them is that this was coming to the advisory committee, that this was a really great starting place to have a conversation, but no further conversation from that, no obligations. [20:14] Teal Vasquez: And the ROP did not put forth budgetary limitations, correct? So we just basically said, hey, throw us your best offer, done the thing. [20:24] Jim Gunn: Absolutely. Yeah, just so that we can understand it. And they appreciate the Together Place in their budget, it really outlined things specifically so that we could say, hey, this is maybe what we, what we really need in bankers, let's start with the basics or whatever that might be. So today I come to you with this, you know, looking for your kind of overall feedback and perspectives, and so knowing that you're, this committee is about strategic planning and thinking through approach for the city, is coming to you and thinking about how does a day space fit into that planning that you're thinking of and resource allocation for the city, and please, like, if I'm totally off, like, what the council would like [21:13] Carolyn Fish: Directly, and if I'm right, I think when we first got it, was kind of stupid shock. We didn't put any form this, we just kind of threw it out there because it was new. Many people, we saw the price was probably impossible, but this is the sense that it could start. And also any feedback that you may see that wasn't within the guidelines, but that you might see creatively, you know, should we open it to profit as well? You know, should we not just non-profit? And I know we also talked about making Peers, we know that we do need a low barrier, but we also think that the low barrier may, I know we had some discussion, might discourage other homeless needs that may interfere with low barrier. So you know, what type of separation or, you know, is it low barrier and just that the other one separate or somehow could we have a different tier that would be a little bit above low barrier but right now low barrier is primary but that is also in the back of our mind [22:30] Ben Treat: So some people might want a higher barrier space is that the idea okay some unhoused people might want to hire because they don't want to be exposed to some of the behaviors so we have a need as well [22:42] Carolyn Fish: I think our primary was low barrier in the back of our mind from the others thank you [22:50] Melissa Ann Rhodes: And it's been my experience with low barrier, that the opposite of low barrier is not high barrier. The opposite of low barrier is high expectation. A low barrier and high barrier placement in a program is for access of front door access. How are you eligible? It's an eligibility criteria. It's not an expectation of the staffs or of the agencies where they want the person to go. Right? The expectations are high. But our access is low our ability so low barrier is an access point thank you so much absolutely one [23:30] Ben Treat: Thing I noticed I looked through the staff and I was like yeah gosh that does feel like a really great program and I wondered and I was looking at I was like I can't find a spot that I'm like oh yeah I know where the carve-out is here though like this oh yeah that housing health navigator that's that's not that's not necessary but it feels like gosh that could be a really compelling like moving beyond just having a space and towards moving along to a like a new access to housing so I you know I was having trouble parsing that out for myself and say oh well i can't yeah that seems it seems robust but i couldn't figure out where to cut back and so then the other thing i thought was are there any specific things in here where it's not that it's not necessary but maybe there's the potential to have a partnership where somebody is already doing work like that you know that meter is looking for birth space to be present? And would they be present hours of the day or an hour a week for them to actually fill their roles? That was one way I tried to think about it. But has there been any thought about that either council or public health about like, elements of this thing? Less? If we were to say like, hey, what would this look like if you remove this element? What are those elements? [25:12] Jim Gunn: Well, you know, it's interesting, I actually go to the well model and the well is actually run by complete volunteers and not that I'm saying that the city should invest in a completely volunteer fund but I think that what do you need at the most basic so that people feel supported and safe and that can actually come from people that don't have the training that is necessarily outlined in this budget like peer recovery and those are all amazing resources that can be brought in by other organizations. But if you think about it at the most basic, I think about what the Well does. And Well operates with mostly volunteers, but they have a lot of safety measures in place. They've got the certain alarms on the bathroom doors. They have a separate space where Amy and others can see people privately. They've got a space for food. They've got laundry happening in the back. They do it in a way that there isn't anyone who has specialized training to run a day center, but they do have training in how to use naloxone, how to de-escalate, how to provide trauma-informative communication. So when I think of the most basic version, I almost kind of default to what the well does. [26:30] Amy West: STEPHANIE DESMOND- Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, one of the questions I had when we were looking at carving things out for, like, because sticker shock hit me too, and I'm like, wow, so it, they had like the 30 folks that they would anticipate upstairs, the 30 folks that they would anticipate downstairs, the downstairs being more low barrier and the upstairs being more like high expectation patients, and the only thing that kind of confused me was, and I know Together Place isn't currently open, but the upstairs sounds like kind of the services that they had been already offering, like the group space, peer support, like more engagement kind of expectations, so I guess when I was looking at the budget that was one of the things that I was just not, I don't want to say confused about, but is this proposal to now run this, the services that they had historically offered and add a low barrier kind of day space, so that was one of the questions that I had. The other piece of what I think was briefly touched upon was I do think there's a very large group of our folks that are unhoused that would do really great with those higher expectation day spaces that are maybe less active use going on, maybe more managed, or folks with mental health that are kind of more engaged in treatment already, and I will say having those things in one location, I know, is really tricky. That's just feedback from folks that I work with, feeling like when they're really trying to engage in recovery services, it's hard to be in the same place of active use, that can be very triggering for them, and sometimes that keeps them away from locations where resources are, but they're really trying to avoid spaces of active use, and I would, I think both of those services are so important, and I love that the Together Place wants to be able to offer both of those services, and obviously they would need to offer that in the same building to, for it to be possible for one organization to do things, but I definitely think that's worth looking into as we're talking about how to kind of create an ideal space and from a budgetary perspective [28:51] Melissa Ann Rhodes: I want to echo some of the things that you said. What I heard from you is that concerns about separation. I would like to extend that concern both in the financial area as well as the clinical and the service provider area. In the service area, we have a program that came from a behavioral health background. I have behavioral health clients that can serve a staff and we're serving a behavioral health clientele. We're looking at the RFP looks at trying to shift part of the building, part of the staff and part of the services towards homeless services while maintaining its previous behavioral health staffing, specifically the CIPSS. The CIPSS staffing model is through the Department of Health and Human Services, behavioral health supported through them. And if you look at the website, it says that the CIPSS trained individuals are employed in crisis services, both mobile and receiving services, that they're employed in the emergency rooms, that they're employed in grant funded peer supports, which is what the Together Place was. So all of those other services are main care and reversible. Most of what SIPs does is in carrier personal. How does that fit into this model [30:21] Amy West: and anecdotally patients that access Together Please really appreciate the services that Together Place offers. And interestingly I had a client come in today that said that their night space was the best night space that he accessed that was not a shelter night space. So I think that speaks to like the ability for them to do some of the work. It's just like how do you do it in a way that provides all the services in the right setting to the right folks and is affordable [30:56] Jim Gunn: What do you see as the biggest need right now for a higher expectation space or a lower? [31:06] Amy West: Honestly, I think it's really hard to pick one over the other. I mean, really like the, from a clinical perspective, like the medical side of things, selfishly being able to find all of my highest risk patients in one place makes my job easier. year but for folks that are really working on recovery are newly housed and lonely but trying to maintain recovery that has been a resounding theme from folks that there isn't a space that is not where there's not kind of like active use right there when they're trying to get that social connection and the groups and all the wonderful things that Together Place has to offer. I'm not saying by any means that Together Places active use going on in their building by any means, but it's it would be Wonderful to have another space that folks could connect and connect with their peers as they become housed or are working or close to housing or are newly unhoused. [32:13] Teal Vasquez: And maintaining recovery, is there any data out there that shares the speed at which people are able to transition from being unhoused to being stably housed, from those two places, like from low barrier to being housed versus to the high expectation model to being housed? [32:39] Jim Gunn: When you're kind of living it right now. [32:42] Amy West: I suspect that there's anecdotal reports out there. I'm sure a lot of social workers have written some beautiful anecdotal papers on that. I think, clinically speaking, because the definitions are all so different. The service, the geography, all of that is so, it's not standardized, that I have a hard time thinking that there's like reliable data, you know. I don't think there's going to be like a high level Cochrane review on any of that stuff that we could, we could lean to. And I think just the landscape of certain resources and funding of resources in the past few years has so drastically shifted that what we saw a few years ago is also not, it's just not the same now, hospitals closing and you know what I mean, like even the medical resources in the past year so drastically shifted or just less and less available for folks and that's [33:50] Bruce Hews: that's what we're saying to as far as we actually have Dr. Tony on the, sorry guys, my work got over and I got tied down, so I can only do remotely and I apologize, sometimes I have to go just mute and no video just because my internet isn't that great, but just to add on to discussion about something like this, together place is the proposal, is one of the things about our population is that it provides a level of surveillance in terms of helping who's at risk, it's just give us an extra level to keep an eye on Tom or whoever it is that may be at risk and therefore is a point of engagement, I think not having that, you know, in the proposal would lack, would basically we would have a, we lose another pair of eyes to kind of see what we can do to support someone and miss an opportunity to say, you know what, I does need some intervention here or Mary needs some intervention here, so I think, you know, there's the piece about all the stuff we're talking about and the socialization, obviously, is the piece, I mean, these folks are very isolated being the more Isolated they are, the more struggle they're going to have because they have no one they can turn to. So this additional place, because you're not, you're not putting a, you're not putting a time limit, literally they could be there all day if they wanted to, correct? So I think that's the help piece, especially when we get to the warmer, sorry, cooler months. So all right, sorry about that. So [35:21] Teal Vasquez: It sounds like there's fairly unanimous agreement that we need this space. So what are, what's that, a space? Yes, thank you. Yes, thank you, a space. So what are folks concerned, we've talked about the sticker shock, are there any other pieces in this RFP that we could then send back to council to say hey, we agree the stay center is needed, but here are some areas that we feel like maybe could be looked at to make this more appropriate for the needs [35:59] Carolyn Fish: of the community. Take it away. And I think to listening to this conversation that, you know, we only have so much money as a municipality, and even with the grants, I know Jen's been great with the grants, that goes you can't depend on, and we're trying to look at a long-term solution so that we know how to budget. But now listening to this conversation, where is the biggest domain that, you know, we only have so much money, when we finally figure out what we will have, where can we have the biggest impact? Is it going to be a low barrier, or is it going to be the high expectation? Where do you, do you as the experts see the greater need? You know, I know the lower barrier, you know, they really need more help, you know, to reach back and help them step up the ladder. But at the same time, if we don't have so much money, but we have a higher population that in fact could have a higher impact of success, should we be more open-minded? So I guess I look, you know, now that we're hearing, you know, when you guys are in the field, where do you see the biggest need in the biggest population, where we can have the biggest impact? [37:12] Amy West: I think the question really is like, from a needs assessment perspective, I think the higher expectation group, it's harder to gauge what the need is because a lot of those folks are a little more hidden, right, like the newly housed folks, like I'm sure you can give anecdotal stories, I can give anecdotal stories of clients that have literally surrendered their housing because they are suicidal, they're so isolated and depressed, and they can't have friends over, they will lose their housing anyways, but To quantify that, I think is a lot harder. I think it's easier in some ways to quantify the folks that need the low barrier services because you can see them to some degree more than you can see the folks that would benefit from the higher expectations. So I don't think that's, I think we would have to do a little more information gathering to be able to, well I know I [38:03] Jim Gunn: would feel like I needed to. Did I have a thought on that? It seems to me from my observations in the work is that for people who have, who could meet a higher expectation, center space may also be open to other different types of opportunities for engagement, but we're just not creating those opportunities. Maybe they want to engage in an a reading group or anything like that. There might be other ways to have that socialization and connect points outside of a day space. Whereas for people who need to access low barrier, a day space is one of the few interventions that would [38:45] Amy West: be available to them. I agree with that completely and I've sent a lot of folks that are newly housed and in recovery trying to maintain that to the library. I'm like, there's so many lovely groups where you can socialize and the Lego group and like, oh you know what I mean, I know that's a [39:00] Speaker J (unidentified): to group but like all those things i think it 's also important to remember the fact that they and coming from housing and from doing this like i just feel like at some point they get forgotten yes in their house and then we're doing a lot like i can speak for myself on the amount of work i do to do things i probably is over what i should be doing right to keep people housed but in the end those supports fade and it seems to they seem to fade quickly and rather that short staffing or whatever right and then the people do isolate but they also can fire their staffing and it makes it very hard because then they isolate more. So I can get, I can have someone that's denied request an appeal and I you know get all the documentation to say you know they're gonna have two years of support, they're gonna have you know they're doing counseling, they're doing all these things to say great, okay, I feel like I'm putting you in the center of a UFC cage right, you can fail at any moment, we're gonna who's gonna be in your corner right how are we gonna fight this fight together and then in the seconds notice it's like i don't i 'm housed i've got all the pressure from all out here people wanting to come in and be housed with them and so it's how is that going to happen oh i'm going to fire my caseworker i'm going to fire this one and i'm going to isolate and then here they come right and so then we're in there are inter having interventions and literally meeting with them and some of them will bring extras like, you know, it's, it's interesting, but they're not bringing the ones they said would stay, right? So those systems that it kind of fails. Dr. Tony, did you have something, sir? Yeah, so questions [40:39] Bruce Hews: I mean, go kind of piggyback on what Carolyn was saying about, you know, because we only have so much money and how are we going to spend it and wisely and stuff with low, I guess low intensity, the programs. I wonder if there's a way we could be the entree because first of all, I think one, we, there's a couple of things I was thinking of. One, this could be an opportunity for, you know, unfortunately, you know, when new people come in, we don't know who they are, we can capture them quickly on this and see who actually needs help and then also put a benchmark, say hey, six months, we want to see, I mean, so I throw a date on number out there, six months, we want to see what's your benchmark to show me your number of people you could move on to high level of support, whether it's, you know, engage them a case manager, engage them in healthcare, engage them, so six months from now this program can say hey, listen, in that six months we identify that we have, you know, a good number of like 500 people came in, okay that's an important data point for me to have, and then in that meantime, in that six months, we move about, I don't know, 20% or whatever number we want to say into this level of care, we can see become almost like a triage or like a traffic control. And I think that may help low barrier. You're shaking your head, Jason Hughes. [42:00] Amy West: And me too, only because Dr. Tony, that requires you're holding the organization that's operating the day space accountable for where they're referring to being able to intervene and take that patient. So what we see all the time is, for instance, when I'm working in primary care, I put in a referral for case management. I quote, connected that person to case management, but it's a six month wait. And the person needs a phone for the case manager to call them to make an appointment. So even though I referred them to case management, in reality, I did not connect them to case management. And I don't have a case manager that I'm, that I can hold accountable. It's another organization, it's impossible to hold that organization, quote, accountable. So to some degree, we're then kind of setting this day space up for failure because the other problem is the space is there. Yes, we need that space. But unless that organization is responsible and paying for the case manager, we're going to end up in the same vicious cycle. Yeah, we put a referral in, but the referral isn't realistic. I have a patient that waited four years for a primary care provider locally in Bangor because they're like just swirling in the system. So we have PCPs in Bangor, but just because the primary care office is there doesn't mean you can actually get in to see the primary care provider. So I agree. I think that I hear what you're saying and we need those data points and we have to be able to prove what we're paying for is effective however again it comes down to the system in which our folks access services it's very clearly very expensive to do this work and if we're requiring multiple agencies to each chip in then how do you can't hold the day space accountable for another agency not being able to meet the need of the client and with all due that agency is not getting paid by the city so they're doing their best everyone's doing their best but it's expensive to provide these services and the reimbursement is not the best and it's hard to secure and maintain and staffing and like then we're back at the beginning of how do we actually [44:28] Bruce Hews: make a dent right so there's a part of me that there's a part of me that i hear that because I see that all the time with my people, but my patients, sorry. But at the same time, I think it does force us, okay, let's just say, you know, they have all these people and they realize, hey, you know what? Majority of the time we make a referral, but they have a long wait list. They can't get in there. That's a problem that this group will have to take on the next step, because I think what we're trying to do is trying to take the issue of other agencies into this proposal. Again, I'm not tickling the way I should be eloquently, but I feel like the failure of other agencies to provide prompt access, they're not going to respond. Because if, let's say, Together Place does get this, and we do put that benchmark in there, they say, hey, you know what? We try, but for example, we're struggling with this because we try to place them in Agency B, and Agency B keeps saying they have a six-month wait list. This, then we need to look at as a group, okay, why is the agency be having such a problem and not taking them not to get a place but the other folks? Again, maybe, I'm, you know, maybe I'm not taking the way I should be saying, but I just worry that we're trying to fix the downstream stuff. And not, again, not letting the downstreams that deal with it and let them fix it. We having upstream people fix it. I [46:02] Jim Gunn: Think there's a way to provide a number of measures on the success of a day center. I think you can look at like the immediate outputs, which is, you know, the number of people, unique individuals, number of times they come. It can be, you know, qualitative in terms of, you know, client satisfaction, the number of referrals that are given, the number of agencies that are given. We can look at even sort of the number of police calls in certain areas of the town. So I think there are a number of measures that could be wrapped around this day center, not just to measure success, but as you also just mentioned, to measure the system and where there may be failures that need to be addressed in a collective way. I [46:56] Melissa Ann Rhodes: Think it's too soon to start talking about metrics. We haven't talked about financial viability yet. It's a lot like talking about a data, I'm talking about a dashboard. Before you design what's going to produce the data, it's a very different conversation. I don't think that we're at that point with this whole process. I do have a couple of other questions. Does the recovery center generate income or receive funding independent of the pay center? They are, because they talk about having a recovery center, and they're talking about having a day center as an addition. So what funds are coming in to the recovery center to cover all of that? [47:44] Jim Gunn: So I think just to back up for a second, I think if there was interest in having Together Place talk specifically about the proposal and be able to answer some of those questions, it would be fine. I think we would want to bring them in to answer some of those specific questions. You know, today's conversation, just thinking even just this is the first time you've been having a conversation about a day center, you know, understanding from your all perspective, where does this fit into the overall strategies that you're all exploring? [48:18] Carolyn Fish: And I know also, just from actually the cities and some other data and information from all the calls I've made, which some of that communication is ongoing. Going, I know that there's grant money and intent is so busy, but I know that there's, there's grant money that we as a municipality might be able to apply once we know what the relationship is, that we may be in a position to apply or for grants that even though it might be assigned to whoever does it, if they center one women's shelter for instance, I think that there's one coming up that I read or one recently came up for about two million dollars for homelessness, and but it has to go through the Minutes of power. So, you know, I think again right now seven hundred thousand, seven hundred fifty thousand dollars is a lot. Jen's got a lot on her plate and she's trying to keep track of those grants, but there's, I think, you know, with a grant writer, I don't know, for the municipality as well, where municipalities have broader opportunities for us to just be able to apply and delegate those. So 750 now, but we do agree, Jen, you're in a position to look at grants, all-time-on-fair grants, we just don't have the time for. I think also, although you mentioned it was a big thing, that it was very complicated, complex, and time-consuming. [49:48] Jim Gunn: Yes, we, there's a number of probably opportunities out there that we just don't have the resources to identify and dig into. So [50:00] Teal Vasquez: It does again, sound like there is a need for a space, right? So is this, is there a recommendation that the committee would like to make to council regarding that, whether it's, I mean, I don't know what we're permitted to do, but I think, again, it sounds like we all agree that there's a need for this. So maybe there is a need for Council to reevaluate whether or not this RFP was the right RFP, whether or not this is, but again, unanimously, it sounds like there is a need for a day space. Yeah, I agree. [50:47] Carolyn Fish: I think the council knows we have a need for day space. I think they're hoping to get a little more suggestions from the field of experts of what that might look like, or the way we might wanna focus more attention on. So I think if we just go back and say, if you need a day space I don't think that's what I think they're looking for something a little more [51:12] Teal Vasquez: Well it's it sounds like then we need to have some time to get more information before we can make a strong recommendation that you know you need more time you need more information that [51:27] Jason Goodrich: You're just not in a position yet to make those recommendations and can I just ask a question [51:32] Amy West: Around like budgeting one having seen how disruptive when like a day space that's been around for a bit closes and how disruptive it can be for service providers to find their folks and folks to find their service providers when we're looking at funding and potentially like long-term funding is there a way for us to have an idea of like this is what the budget could be with no additional grants. And if we could find some grants, this is how long a grant might last. Because I think that's the other piece for me is, yeah, this is the platinum model. And wouldn't that be great. And they're hiring all their own service providers. So from an accountability perspective, it's easier to collect the data and measure things and all that jazz. But if there's a number already in council's head, that's like, well, we could probably afford between this and this I think it'd be easier for us to say okay well if that's what we've got to work with this is where we think you're going to get the most bang for your buck that's a good point I think [52:35] Carolyn Fish: Saying that, and perhaps what we can do is counsel, and I'm always, this is just an idea from me that I thought of today as discussions have been going on, maybe internally we need to, I know Jen's very communicative because she has more boots on the ground and involved, but I don't know that we've really sat down with EMS, fire, police, and said, where are you overextended? What does this mean if we had a day space? Where are your limitations? Where else could we as a city put some monies to help you to help ease the problem, or where do we need to take some stuff off your plate and delegate it? In parks and recreation, they're involved at some point. So maybe internally we need to find out where, you know, we're overextended or maybe where we could provide more services and then we can come back and say, you know, if we had a day space, this would be how it would help police and maybe EMS, depending on the services provided in that space. But we don't even have a basis, I don't think, and Manager Lee or maybe you could add that if we had an assessment of each department, we know police and EMS pretty much, but this really affects all of our departments and it affects Jen's department too, but I don't know that we know our strengths and weaknesses, where those breaking points are. [54:05] Jason Goodrich: Yeah, I mean, I think specifically connecting it to sort of homelessness, I think it would be, and I know this is an infuriating answer, but in many instances we know anecdotally but when EMS responds to someone they're not necessarily taking the time to collect like you have a home or not no they're just providing the life-saving service stabilizing the person or transporting them to the hospital so that would repeat itself over and over again in our departments but undoubtedly responding to crises within a community that is in crisis impacts the workload and challenges I would say almost every single department within the city and I would add you know we've had [54:55] Jim Gunn: conversations with Bruce and the chiefs and the one of the things that we often come back to in a conversation is where do we tell people where to go and during the day when we're asking people to find different spaces to be, we don't have an answer. And that is probably one of the top challenges of the work of all our departments whenever we talk with Parks and Rec, the police, and fires. We can say this isn't the best space for you to be at this moment, but we don't have a place for someone to go. [55:33] Amy West: And from a budgetary perspective, like I think if the committee was aware, where like, I'm just throwing fake numbers out there. You got a hundred grand. I'd be like, can we do a seasonal space in the summer and fall when the warming spaces are closed that maybe isn't year round? That's not ideal by any means. And I'm sure the seasonal folks who like WTF, like. [55:53] Jim Gunn: I do want to be cautious of that. [55:56] Amy West: 100% because I think, but what I mean by that is I'm not saying that's the right answer, but I'm saying if we have kind of a more realistic idea around budgeting, then we can at least propose pose some ideas as options, or if there's a particular grant that we know of to just be able to frame up things. Because I think it's very hard to give a recommendation when you have no idea what kind of money is you're working with. And I agree, I don't think a seasonal space is the right answer, but I also know with $100,000, dollars you're probably not going to get a year-round space and you're not going to get it seven days a week or probably five days a week so that's what you need on time correct [56:42] Melissa Ann Rhodes: So I mean what about what about a two-year program what if we were to say this is going to happen for two years and be able to say that's long enough to show a good outcome I'll talk about the money right now we still have a lot of money hot a lot of money any concerns but what if you were to make this a what do you call it a program I mean you haven't grown a grant for two years to show proof finally there it is that's the word I'm looking for so make this a two-year pilot something the city Wants to look at for two years and then move [57:19] Teal Vasquez: From there so in the interest of time and we have other agenda items I'd like to ask the committee it sounds like we need more information so what specific pieces of information can we request city staff to try to gather for us to be able to come back in a couple of weeks and have an [57:42] Ben Treat: Impactful conversation so I thought maybe if we looked at the 990 for the organization that an answer people had about like the organization I know that's the most publicly available one would probably be a little old but if something along those lines was available the committee that might help us allay concerns or whatever feel like okay I understand what finances of the organization are I think another thing that would be valuable though would be determining whether the together place if Somebody were to come back to them and say, hey, there's the committee feels like there's a distinction between high expectation and low barrier, and we're not sure that both is the thing we want to offer. Which of those would you actually be able to offer? That might be a valuable thing to get from Together Place. And I think also, like, they were given a sky's the limit, you know, request. How would they trim, you know, if you know, maybe a conversation where just a sense with the people who are in charge, the board president, the executive director, like, what are what are some ways that you would think about trimming this request now that you're getting the sense of what sticker people were expecting to see? That conversation feels like it'd be useful to have as well, something that people would come preparing to answer knowing that we were [59:21] Jason Goodrich: can i just interject i think and counselor fish please jump in if you disagree but i think I think Council is probably more interested in understanding this committee's overall take on whether to fund an RFP, as opposed to whether to fund the together places specific proposal, and them as an organization. [59:53] Ben Treat: Yeah, that's a different conversation. I'm happy to not get into the finances. I just honestly don't feel like we're actually qualified to answer those questions, but I thought if everyone looked at the members, they might say, oh yeah, perhaps this is more complicated than I understand. I probably can't venture an opinion. [1:00:11] Amy West: I can wholeheartedly say personally, I think having a day space is worth investing in. I just don't know how much to invest. [1:00:22] Melissa Ann Rhodes: I'd like to know that number. I actually envision something larger than a day space. I envision a day space with a high expectation shelter connected to it, with a low barrier day space not necessarily on site together, but having the two services within a few blocks of each other, so that anybody can come to the day program, but the higher expectation [1:00:43] Teal Vasquez: patient services of shelter in 20 or 30 people. So I again I think, and until you're pleased let me know, Fish, that one of the things we need to try to identify is prioritizing, right? Sure, do we prioritize low entry, do we prioritize higher expectation, do we prioritize a day center, a 24 for. But to do that, we need a little more information. So I think, again, the question to the committee is, what information do we feel like we need to be able to make that sort of recommendation to council, recognizing that some of that information may not be immediately available, may not be from this area. I mean, I go back to my earlier question action about timeline of success from low barrier versus higher expectation, and completely understand different terminology in different places, and we're not going to find a perfect thing, but if there's any data out there that we could be brought to this committee so that we can have an evidence-based recommendation to Council to say, hey, if we can get this high expectation, and I'm just throwing things out there, guys. If we can get this out, we feel like it's going to have a higher impact faster on the overall community, which will free up resources to then dedicate to the low access needs or something like that. But we need the data to be able to do that. So what data is it that we need? [1:02:24] Bruce Hews: Alton, another quick question. I'm just curious. Yeah, curious. is do we have other projects and maybe carolyn and council fish can also identify are there any other projects that's actually on the pipeline that we should be aware of that would potentially impact how we think about this thing like i yeah i hear i see a shake i see a nod [1:02:50] Jim Gunn: i can chime in and start there's two projects well there's already sort of what exists in our systems ether and then the other two projects that are coming along is the Yellen Pines project which is the 24-7 supportive 30-unit housing that is still in some conversations and then there is the project hope proposal which is main housing had approached us about a project that they did in portland with high intensity case management for people who are living outside to provide them with ongoing support through housing to help keep them out people housed as well so those are two proposals that are with city council right now [1:03:42] Teal Vasquez: that's really helpful [1:03:45] Carolyn Fish: all so it sounds to me like maybe council needs to come up with their budget you know rather than having what best wish in the proposal maybe we need to determine what we're comfortable with as a budget and maybe we need to determine that where it would be a pilot when this would be the first time we're engaging in trying to create a day space then should we decide that it's a two-year pilot where we can have milestones to assess what the progress is and how the advancement or the tweaking and the changes we need to make so those might be two key steps that the council should decide to help you guys go from there i mean i corrected that i think that would be [1:04:31] Ben Treat: helpful but i feel like they're like two separate goals that have been discussed and i'd like to know also what council is looking for because it sounds like the goals that brought about this project had a lot to do with visibility of unhoused folks in spaces that were not safe not appropriate not year round and so that led to unhoused folks being stigmatized to stand and help lead to people complaining and who were not on house folks complaining and so that felt like it was maybe part of the where this came from i would want to know is that a goal that council still has and if it does i'm not sure the high expectation space is our is a quick response to that but i feel like there's also a really good argument for a high expectation space so i just want to know from council what are you looking [1:05:43] Carolyn Fish: for i think that's a side effect obviously in our whole community from both sides obviously it's affecting every day we're getting emails more and more and more of interaction between the unhoused and the residents and i think too we have you know a long history of trying many things but i think we have such low budgets we throw 50 or 60 or 100 000 a year there it seems like it's fragmented in crisis you know it's a neat knee jerk reaction and we even admit that we've been doing it wrong of course it always changes if you wait a couple months the changes and changes so i think it's fair to say it's hard to know how to react so i think we're just trying to bring in the experts to get guidance so we can invest more and figure out the best use of those monies for the biggest impact so that it does give them a house that around the streets a place to fall so we can better manage better get them in service and hopefully help them advance from a low barrier to a hard expectation so i think what you just described we recognize as a side effect but i don't know that we could put it on our goals tell you exactly where it falls into a goal i think we need to start with what's our budget [1:07:05] Teal Vasquez: And what's our action plan? We know what the side effects are, so I think if you look at the future agenda items, right, the very first one is, you know, understanding homelessness response system and a provider ecosystem mapping and journey mapping. I think we need to prioritize that for the next meeting because it sounds like if we can understand that journey mapping and that ecosystem mapping, that can help us with the RP type in the day space conversation to be able to tell or recommend to Council. Look, this needs to be a priority. Here's why: in the journey, here's where it's broken, here's how we can get the folks access to the care and the services that they need. It's going to come from a day Center, but I think we need to see that map to really be able to make that assessment. It may also allow us to look at the journey and say realistically, if you've got five hundred thousand dollars or seven hundred thousand dollars to spend, there's a better place we can solve this problem, and I don't. Know if that's the case, but I think looking forward, that may be a more appropriate starting point for us to be able to. [1:08:17] Jason Goodrich: Give a better recommendation, just in the interest too of like understanding. [1:08:23] Amy West: Understanding turnaround times on answers. I don't know how to articulate this well, but like, even clearly when you asked me like, what's the priority? I'm like, Oh God, it's so hard to tell. And the more we talk about like, Oh my God, we need a day space. Oh my God, we need a day space. That's low barrier thinking about all the things. So I guess my question too is realistically timelines and all the things like, what do you think for us to be able to do an ecosystem map that can take weeks to do it well? I guess I don't really have a point here, but moral of the story, like this is going to take time, so like also understanding what kind of turnaround time are is the council looking for recommendations will be helpful, I think. Yes. [1:09:17] Carolyn Fish: Do it right. If you guys need more time, you just need to go back and say, you know, we didn't understand, now that we're into it and having all these discussions, we need more information and we're going to need more time. And I think I can't speak for all the council, but I think that message they would say, yeah, take the time you need because we really want to try to get it right this time. Yeah, the other thing that came up the other night, we don't even really know, and this was an interesting. Conversation we had Monday night, what's the definition of homelessness. Bangor's homelessness. Because, you know, we only have so much of a budget and yes, we're a service center, but we also know that there's a lot of people coming in daily and we ourselves said, do we even know what is, you know, what do we consider Bangor's homelessness? And, you know, some people say, well, somebody arrived yesterday, but the reality is we can't take care of everybody else. And we need some limitations and we need some type of procedure, and we have to know who and how to say no. And as much as people don't wanna hear that, the reality is we don't have all the resources and all the money, and we looked at each other and we said, well, what's your idea of Bangor's homeless? And we all had different perceptions of that. So I think we need to really even identify what is Bangor's homeless. [1:10:44] Teal Vasquez: I agree, and I think, in the interest of time, because we are almost at 630 and we have not stopped. And if the committee is open to it, I'd actually like to skip over item number two and go tonight number three because I think that carries along with the conversation we just had. I think the message that should go back to council, but they should also go back to the public is if we want this done right, it needs to take it's going to take time. time. And item number I want to make sure I get these three is about how the city is communicating services and communicating the work that this committee is doing and communicating the work that all of the departments are doing to the public right now. And if there are any recommendations for this committee on how they can better communicate those things out because I think there's a disconnect between what's actually happening in the community and what people's understanding of what's happening in the community and so what recommendations or what thoughts does this committee have on how the city can better articulate and share those messages and in my opinion this is just my opinion number one being this is going to take time this is not a happening overnight thing so I'll open [1:12:23] Ben Treat: It to the committee and I think the biggest challenge is that people have an emotional response every time they see a non-cast person that is very hard to match with information. And because the information we provide isn't just information, usually it's it's data or it's you know that's what we have to provide as a committee as a city government. The thing that I think is the biggest myth that I see is nothing has happened. And it's more like, you know, at the molecular level, how everything is in constant motion, you know, and you don't see that as a human, because our guys don't see that, right? But at the molecular level, everything's in constant motion. And the amount of outflow out of homelessness that happens through work that a lot of people around us are doing is remarkable. But I think people don't see it because each time they see a group of unhoused people in the same spot, they think nothing's changing. So that communication, finding a way to communicate the work and effectiveness of that work is important. I know that it's still going to be met with people saying like, well, but I still see lots of homeless people in Devonport Park. So I see the same guy and he's homeless. Us you know there will be those responses but I think communicating that outflow work is one thing that could be really effective is that the kind of thing you were looking for it is but I [1:14:09] Teal Vasquez: also think it might help us to understand from Andrew Lear is there an existing communication plan within the city with regards to again the efforts of this committee the efforts of all the departments related to homelessness? No. So I think an easy recommendation is let's put together a communication plan. Let me know, because to your point, 100%, right? And I think that the communication that is happening is very sporadic, very data intensive, not very sexy. So it's not catching people's attention. I think this issue needs to be treated with some more deliberate communication. And so I, again, just speaking for myself and I don't want to hear from everybody else, but I do think step one is let's create a communication plan, let's have the city create a communication plan on how we're going to share this information, the successes, the opportunities, the services, which we will actually get to, again, looking at future agendas. We have on here how we're communicating with the provider community, how we're communicating with system users. I would love for us to be able to make a recommendation today on how city can communicate better with the general public. [1:15:46] Jason Goodrich: And I'll just add, I think if a recommendation came from this committee that was, you need a plan and these are the top five or eight priorities that you should focus on, that would be something really actionable that staff could then take and eventually and then have you to respond, you know, we did it well here and here, but these three things was the mark we really meant this, we could do that, you know, with relative speed, thoughts. [1:16:16] Ben Treat: We need to make Bruce our poster. But seriously, it is hard to have cultured children for success stories because like people have privacy, right, and you may not want, and so I know I've seen when I was more active on social media, I had seen cases where someone was like, I've been, you know, this person has been unhoused for X months or years, has been housed, those kinds of things, but I think that's limited and we can't like depend on that as a method because it's the potential for being very stigmatizing. [1:16:56] Melissa Ann Rhodes: Yeah, we'd love to hear more from Sheldon Buss or whatever they're calling it these days. It's always nice to hear in the socials and the things that I see when the city talks about their success stories. [1:17:22] Amy West: One of the submissions by email mentioned maybe like the U of O journalism school or the social work school and leveraging students that are professional and interested and maybe free to help bring some of those success stories forward and maybe in an impartial way. Because I think the value is having success stories but also highlighting like this is still very difficult and it's yeah absolutely so I think that there's great potential there and I know oh John's gone crap I want to say the CDC brought up some anti-stigma campaigns that they've been able to utilize around like STD testing or HIV and a way like kind of a more sexy flashy way of drawing attention without placing blame anywhere but just like opening people up to anti-stigma messaging whether That's through post replacements or advertisements or throwing it on a Facebook page or something like that, a way to help also just like continue this message of awareness with compassion. So if we were to [1:18:42] Teal Vasquez: To prioritize the messaging that we'd like to see from Citi. Looking at anti-stigmatism, stigmatization. Sure, I don't know. You know, the resources, right? Data, WhatsApp, and I think just kind of updates, right? What, I mean, I know, I'm sure you all look at the Facebook feeds and see the things that people comment about what's happening in the city, what this committee is doing, just updating on those things. I mean, if we were to prioritize those things, what do we think is like number one that needs to get out there, number two, it's next on the list, I mean, [1:19:37] Amy West: I think in a way to explain what the current landscape looks like in the sense of like, this is where we're at today with resource availability to some degree, and then updates for what the committee is working on as the committee makes recommendations. Obviously, keeping the public apprised to that, in my opinion, would make the most sense as like priority one, priority two. So that way, at least the folks can feel like they have an idea of like what the landscape looks like, what the plans are, what's happening, and then really like layering in success stories and the human component of all of this work, because like you articulated it very well, when it's a human health service, it's, it's not transactional, it is wildly complex, and helping folks see the logistics and the emotional piece of that, I think can be helpful. So I want to make [1:20:35] Jason Goodrich: sure I've heard what you intended me to hear so far. So I think I heard, obviously we need a plan, I think that was a pretty low-hanging, what's being done out there currently, committee updates about what you're all considering for recommendations, and then success stories are sort of a three. Is that what I'm hearing [1:21:05] Carolyn Fish: i think the community really wants to hear what an action is to try to stop the influx and we always you know even on council we really haven't thought what could be coming off any ideas for limitations expectations and you know i know there 's some upcoming things we'll be discussing but i think the problem is that we're just being very receptive and tolerant of all of the homeless coming no matter you know why where you know it's just kind of a free fall and by lack of communication they've Made their own assumption that we're fine with there, that they can break all these laws and that we're fine with it, and it's just gotten out of control. So I think we need to say something also about some type of action about what we what we intend to do, or that we're aware of it and we're working on it, but we need to me we need to say something to the public because it's a runaway train with the public making their own assumptions that, you know, there's two sets of rules and, you know, all the Services and time and resources of being to the one percent. So, you know, I don't know what to say, but I do think that it's escalated to the streets and we get the emails. How many did we just get today in my emails, in my text? It's really gotten to the point of frustration with the public that we don't need them taking things into their own hands, and it's getting concerning at the level of frustration. So I don't know what to say, but somehow we have to come up with something that says we're aware of everything. [1:22:53] Speaker J (unidentified): Well, and I think that the other thing is like, every time we come to this table, right, we're talking about data. We can gather all of that. And in reality, people want to see action and that's kind of why we're here, right? So I think, yes, it's good to look at. Success stories would be wonderful, but reality is we're gonna give those success stories and we're gonna get kicked back with yeah great well what about this what this happened in that success story right it's gonna kick the ones that did have success stories back down and I really feel like you know it's hard because we're here every two weeks so it's like we really all of this is a lot right like everything we're given is a lot so it's hard to I feel we feel a little rushed trying to absorb It right and then looking at an RFP like if you have like not knowing it's 750,000 so just like your home budget you'll have a budget if we had that like you can take it our pink okay now we need to really dive down we need to this is the money we have to work with what are we going to do and if we take more time on data and in digging I just feel like it's the same outcome because if you look at all the other you know hard work that went into some of these proposals that was in 2019 2021 and It's the same sort of stuff, so I can see the public's frustration with it, you know, feeling like it's just the same conversations at the table. And I really, I'm just blurring that. Oh, I don't really know where we're going with it, but I'm just thinking it's, I feel like I'm hearing as a member of this, hearing the same thing we've been talking about, and we've gathered data, you know, we've had data that's been given to us, and I feel like if we went back and looked at that, some of that would be answered. In here, so you know, I would more like to know, you know, what kind of money are we working with, because we really can't waste time. Like, we could come up with a bunch of things, but not knowing financially how it's going to be absorbed is difficult, because we could come up with a bunch of stuff and say, here's our proposal, are we like this, and we take it, but if then you come back and say, we took all that time doing that, come back say, oh no, we don't have 350 000, right, so that would be my thing, it's. Like, what are we working with for money, and to start really diving down with what we need, and I think the public would respond better to saying, oh some, you know, they're, they're moving, they're taking action, we're done hearing about all this stuff, so that's just my thought, your. [1:25:16] Ben Treat: Thoughts, yeah, I'm not, I heard you towards the end Carolyn saying you weren't sure how to respond to the narrative of that we're permissive and that we have an unusually large inflow compared to other service center communities in New England. I don't know if it's true, and it doesn't matter if it's true, you know, it doesn't matter at all, like we could be on the low end for service communities in New England, and it would still be the perception, so it doesn't really matter what the truth is, because. Perception is what carries the day, so I'm not sure how to respond. Like, I'm not sure what the communication should be, how we should deal with that. Does anyone have any thoughts about that, because it's a really important point. You're 130,000% correct that this is a common narrative. I don't know what a communication plan could do in response to that, and trying to figure out what the facts are is not the solution in this case. It is for like solving problems, but not in terms of communication plan. This perception is not going to just go away. [1:26:25] Teal Vasquez: Well, I don't think you're ever going to eliminate the perception 100%, right? But it's about, in my opinion, it is about kind of ticking away at that perception, which is what a consistent communication plan does, right? It allows you to get the facts out there with consistency, which is what is key to getting them understood and recognized, right? And so that's where I 'm glad that we've we're having this conversation, because I really think something as simple as having that regular communication plan will make an impact. Is it going to eliminate? Absolutely not. Anyone that tells you that is fine to you, but it's going to help, right? Because what I think, I hope what council's goal is for this committee is to not rush to making decisions, and we have to communicate that fact out there. We have to say this is a super communic super complicated issue, that if we just rush to action, we are going to make the same mistakes that we've made a hundred times before. We need to take the time to properly get the data. We understand that humans are impatient. Thank you tip top for making that so much better, and but we have to articulate, and that's that communication plan, we have to articulate that hey, this is this is going to take time, it's just as many steps to get out of the [1:28:02] Bruce Hews: with systems just tony, you know, the one of the tough things about what we're seeing, at least I'm reading some of the emails and feedback that we receive, a lot of it center on safety things, not as much as oh how many homeless come in, it's this the sense of safety, and when folks can't feel that way, they can't hear anything. It's like if I walk in the neighborhood, I'm going to be constantly mugging, I don't care how what you're doing to revitalize neighborhood, I'm I'm worried about getting mugged in that neighborhood, so I think we have to provide in that messaging that I think in some way it does require some hey, this is what we've been doing to help in that neighborhood. Oh, I'm just using example like you know, we know that there's are increasing this, we already put two patrol officers in that area, so things like this, that people feel that sense of safety, because until they hear that, they can't process oh the wonderful job you know they're doing to help people or the wonderful programs Divert kids from, you know, vandalism and things like that. So I think that's at least initially, we got to overcome that piece again. It doesn't have to be just law enforcement. It could be the fact that, hey, you know, the fire department making more outreach, those in various areas, address people's medical needs and things like that, or whatever that we feel is a group they need to touch on. And then the other thing also, it's kind of maybe a jumping disconnect again, a little bit, but when we talk about cost of everything, we should also think about the projected gain from something like, if we say, you know, this program costs twenty thousand dollars, let's say a job training program, this job training program costs $20,000 or $30,000, but we project that it's going to bring in $40,000 of new employment because people get jobs and all kinds of stuff, that people have those numbers to look at rather than just seeing the one price tag. So if we could do that, I know there's some actuarials and stuff that can come up with those programs. So I saw numbers. So anyway, just much of that first [1:30:11] Jason Goodrich: point you made, Tony, maybe a fourth priority is including in that communication plan how people get help for the common issues that they might encounter in their community that are causing them to feel [1:30:28] Amy West: impacted by this issue. And I think the nice compliment to that is, we hear you, and this is what's already being done to work with the folks that are unhoused, and this is how you can reach out for more information as well. Because I think what you're saying, Dr. Tony, is very true, which is like, if I don't feel safe, I don't feel safe. But I think for the community to maybe feel slightly more safe is to know, hey, there is work that we're already doing to try to make this better. And this is where we're going to continue to go. And if I don't feel safe, I don't feel safe. I don't, I mean, I mean this in the kindest of way, but whether this person was born and raised in Bangor or not born and raised in Bangor, if I don't feel safe, I don't feel safe. So I appreciate that, like that concern that folks have around our folks from Bangor or not from Bangor, but the reality of it is like it doesn't change what people are experiencing every day, whether folks are, it's, it's nearly impossible to define are you from Bangor, quote, there's a very small pocket of folks that genuinely have no tie to this area and never have and just showed up a week ago, so [1:31:47] Bruce Hews: And frankly, people who are scared, who are afraid of stuff, they don't care whether the person is from here, living next door, or whatever it is. They just care the fact that, and the thing is, like, you have 95, 99 of the almost the calmest community, but all it takes is one percent to five percent, whatever that may be, become the news or the noise or whatever it is, and then people react to that, assuming that's represent 95 of what actually they experienced. So it's almost like we have to have a way to Hey, we one, we need to detect that there's a brewing of discontent, and let's just say, you know, K-Park is, you know, people worry about that. Then we're going to say, hey, we're going to have people, this is how we're responding to those, we, this is how we're having more safety things, we're going to educate people more, we're going to have more police presence or whatever it may be, okay. So I think people, once they feel that, then they can start one, give us time to do those things, because I've, you know, I Worry that if we don't, they don't feel that the pressure is going to be on the city council do more and more and more, and they're going [1:32:49] Amy West: To come back on us. So well, and similarly understanding if what folks are asking for or is actually effective through the evidence. So it's important, I think, for us to, in the same way that we're educating ourselves as the committee, to educate and provide those same education resources to our residents of there's actually not a lot of evidence that X, Y, and Z works, even though that's what we think to be true, that's not the reality. And this is what the evidence shows. So I think having a way for folks to access, or a link of some kind to all the resources that are available to us, for folks that are residents to be able to also educate themselves on like, what does the evidence actually say? Because in theory, this works, or this is what we believe to be works, but there's nothing that backs up that actually works, right? Because what I think is very important is that we don't reinforce a presumed narrative and saying like, oh, we'll just double the police force and that solves a problem, like that might be what we think in the moment, but again, there's a reason that we're here, because what we've tried in the past hasn't been effective. So us kind of being thoughtful and it taking time, and there's a reason there's, there's a reason it's taking us time, because there's a lot of evidence to review, and it's also available For anyone else that wants to look at it. [1:34:22] Melissa Ann Rhodes: I'm not sure if there's a way to convey what I'm thinking in communications plan, but there's a difference between feeling emotional dissonance and feeling unsafe. You can walk up to someone on the street and feel a lot of emotional dissonance around how are they looking and how are they acting and how are they being received in their community and what kind of services they're getting and I think that a lot of people immediately take all of that as safety right if we're able to some way to communicate the difference between you know feeling uncomfortable and feeling unsafe it occurs to me when you see a human in a vulnerable situation have a huge flood of emotions whoa [Jason Goodrich: there's] some way to invite people to access those other feelings also [1:35:28] Carolyn Fish: Did you have something you want to tell me I didn't we lost that I've been so uncreative so gross what are we saying right oh I don't know what I was going to say I think also that there's a communication we've done a lot and I think it comes from both sides I think a lot of those that work with the young house and boots on the ground in that world I think we haven't done anything as a city and I know that what the city has done in the last five or ten years you know with start way back with vcat and we have the outreach to officers with the police department community outreach and we have bought you know Bruce on and what all what Jen has done and you know I haven't even touched on the surface I don't think of so many things we've done but because the problem continues to escalate even beyond things out of vanguard municipalities control the perception on both sides from the residents as well as those that work in the field with the non-profits look at the city and say well a you've been doing it all wrong and b you're not doing anything and I think you know obviously we haven't improved so I think we've done something right but I think it's you know we're always three steps short you know like we go up one and we go and then the world takes us back three so I think that communicating what we have done and that won't be perfect because some will say we've done too much well others will say you're not still not doing it up so but that's a theme too important [1:37:06] Amy West: Into state across the country, this is not unique to Bangor. This is, this is what we're seeing everywhere. So it's not even necessarily Bangor is doing it wrong. Like, show me the city that's doing it right. I'd love to talk to them. We haven't met them yet. All of their cities are [1:37:22] Ben Treat: mad at all of their city councils. Yeah, if [1:37:28] Melissa Ann Rhodes: there would be a place in this to highlight like staff, whether they're city staff or the providers, you know, to be able to say this is Amy and this is what Amy does and this is part of the community in the continuum that she's part of. You know, this is Bruce, this is what he does, and this is what part of the continuum, this is what he fits in the continuum. I think [1:37:53] Jason Goodrich: particularly because I think there is information that we produce as a city, but it's like a 20-page report that no one has proficient in, I could assume. I think that's a nice way to sort of start communicating to the public what is happening in this space in consumable bites. [1:38:12] Melissa Ann Rhodes: This is Shane. Shane houses people. Shane's been housing people for five years. Shane's a good guy. [1:38:18] Jim Gunn: I feel like Shane. [1:38:19] Speaker J (unidentified): House, it's kind of like a newsletter, right, shorter version. Everybody's life is in a 10 second scroll, so they can't maintain past that, you know. It's like, so just those blurbs, rather you do it weekly introducing people, rather, you know, it's kind of like a quick short blurb newsletter that says here's a few people, and then they're going to pay attention to that, because beyond that you've lost [1:38:41] Teal Vasquez: them 100 that goes back to the consistency thing right it has to be to your point has to be short verbs but we also can't do it once and then it has to have consistency so that they're consistently getting that 10 second blur and that'll that'll help change the narrative so video do you yeah and i'm to be clear like we'll leave this to your team to figure out exactly what but i think it does have to include video infographics like you know and we're just talking social media terms right i think at some point having a developed plan of, are we, are there reach outs to the new stations to go in studio and have conversations about what's happening here, are there opportunities with the radio stations to go out there, like it should be all encompassing, but that's also very overwhelming, so let's start with the bite-sized pieces and then build off of [1:39:40] Jason Goodrich: that. You have a communications director in the city. We do, okay, but he has like four other jobs. [1:39:51] Speaker J (unidentified): But looking also like I brought resource cards that we use, which you know combine those, but also like interviewing these some of these groups on here, right? So they're, they're also participating in this quick blurb we're giving, you know, run out of all of us like what everybody has in this room for resources. But what is, you know, what does CHCS do? What else do they have? And you know, because again, it might have been on the news when they first come up with a new program or whatever, but it's been forgotten, you know, by the public. So if you go down through here and say, okay, we're going or any all the resources we have together, put them together, and then we say, okay, let's interview this one, let's interview this one, and let's get their information out, because it also gives another resource for the public too. So [1:40:32] Carolyn Fish: I wonder if we had a link on our website that could just even list, you know, when we talked about this last meeting as having a, you know, congregated list of everything. And then it would just be a link for someone to go to, not with other service providers to have a contact. There are so many crises, even a resident that doesn't even know where to begin with. [1:41:00] Teal Vasquez: Do you feel like you have actionable guidance from the committee, or are there other things we can provide to you to make this, I think, to officially call it a committee recommendation [1:41:14] Jason Goodrich: we have to vote on it. And let me try to articulate what I understand to be the message, and then you can tell me if we need to tweak that. So the city needs a plan, communications plan, that prioritizes what's being done currently, provides updates on the committee's work while emphasizing you're being thoughtful success stories, and then how you can get help with common issues and you're impacted by homelessness within the community. I would take that as the committee's recommendation with a subscript that we're interested in highlighting staff using sort of limited quick hit information, maybe videos, to make the information more compelling. [1:42:13] Carolyn Fish: Who would like to put that motion forth, because it was a mouthful, add something to it? I think on the first conversation should we add into the priorities of the things they wanted from council as far as what they want a budget, you know, come up with a budget? I think that relates though to the [1:42:34] Speaker J (unidentified): RFP conversation well and I yes I mean that I was giving that as like an example like that you know we can take all that time to review something but in the end it's 750 000 so no matter what we come up with or actions we come up, we don't have any money tied to that. So not really like it was, that was more of an example, right? So any work we do, if there's not like a goal of what are we looking at? So we may take that one or we may come up with something totally different. We may take parts of all these recommendations that were from years ago and say, okay, this may work, this may work, you know, if for a day center or whatever, you know, we just don't have any money to go by and whatever. [1:43:16] Jason Goodrich: Yeah so you're really looking to communicate as part of the communications plan about the work of the committee that you're just making recommendations really and not really committing the city to do anything because of course all of that would be a component of council's decision allocating resources except okay that's a good point. [1:43:40] Carolyn Fish: Yeah we'd [1:43:43] Teal Vasquez: Like to put forth the motion can we just say it's so moved fantastic I'll take a vote anybody second oh yeah we had three so I was one of those [1:44:00] Jason Goodrich: It's a second yes Dr [1:44:07] Teal Vasquez: Tony yes and I am a yes as well yeah that motion passes so with that we have 15 minutes left and a ginormous thing to talk about so I would ask the committee do you feel like we have even have enough time to even begin to have this conversation or if this is an agenda item that should be moved to the next agenda yeah we [1:44:40] Jason Goodrich: Can't solve it in 15 minutes I don't think so almost insulted to anyone else yes [1:44:51] Teal Vasquez: All right with that are there any other items that anyone would like to discuss or bring up did not make the agenda I'm seeing none all right our next meeting is scheduled for September 8th at 5 15 here in Fevers you have issues with that date or time yeah [1:45:17] Bruce Hews: I'm I'm coming back from Augusta from a meeting so I may be late so I'll just so if I can get out early I'll get there in time so okay awesome thank you sir all right with that [1:45:30] Teal Vasquez: We will adjourn this week's meeting of the advisory community on homelessness